Elden Ring additions.

[Blackcurrant91]

Had some propositions for our Elden Ring profiles.

These would effect Marika, Radagon, Gideon and the Elden Beast off the top of my head.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) and Sealing of said concepts

(Gods/Lords or those that are Powerful enough to manipulate the configuration of the Elden Ring, can alter the "order' or the concepts which govern the lands between. This power allowed Marika to remove the concept of Death from the Lands between and made it so 'True' Death is not possible. To achieve this Marika sealed Destined Death within a Blade representing this power)

I would suggest these are type 2 concepts for the following reasons.

Enia in the Roundtable states the following.

• "Look there. The Fingers tremble. To welcome you, shardbearer. Let their wisdom wash over you. "Great Elden Ring, root of the Golden Order. Anchor of all lands, giver of grace, wellspring of all joy. Until it was shattered. The tragic corruption of the Order has taken its toll. Across the realm, life lies in ruin. Fallen to pieces. Foul curses and misery spread, unabating. But the Greater Will has not abandoned the realm, nor the life that inhabits it. So it is that the Tarnished are guided by grace. Called to act. Brave Tarnished, your Great Rune is a handsome shard of the Elden Ring. Seek another of its kind. To become Elden Lord, and restore the Golden Order". Let the words of the Fingers guide you".

The configuration of the Elden Ring is merely the 'Root' of the Order enacted by the chosen vasal of the Greater Will.

We see this represented in the fact that the event of the Shattering does not immedietly unravel the Lands between in it's entirety, it's more that the concepts 'Order' represents in the current configuration begin to run wild without a coherant cofiguration. This is also evident by the fact that Enia warns us of the fact that Marika is still a God despite her 'Power Source' being Shattered.

TLDR The Concepts that the configuration of the Elden Ring manipulate are not destroyed by them being removed or shattered entirely from the Elden Ring, just altered.

"Queen Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, carrier of its vision.
A god, in truth. But after the Elden Ring's shattering, she was imprisoned in the Erdtree.
A grim punishment for shattering the Order, despite her godhood. The Fingers speak...
"Marika's trespass demanded a heavy sentence. But even in shackles, she remains a god, and the vision's vessel.
Confer Great Runes to become Elden Lord, and join Queen Marika as her consort. The Fingers have willed it so"
Now, you may go."

"Look there. The Fingers tremble. To welcome you, shardbearer. Let their wisdom wash over you. "Great Elden Ring, root of the Golden Order. Anchor of all lands, giver of grace, wellspring of all joy. Until it was shattered. The tragic corruption of the Order has taken its toll. Across the realm, life lies in ruin. Fallen to pieces. Foul curses and misery spread, unabating. But the Greater Will has not abandoned the realm, nor the life that inhabits it. So it is that the Tarnished are guided by grace. Called to act. Brave Tarnished, your Great Rune is a handsome shard of the Elden Ring. Seek another of its kind. To become Elden Lord, and restore the Golden Order". Let the words of the Fingers guide you".

"Heavens forbid... That is not the domain of mere men.
The burning of the Erdtree is the first cardinal sin.
And you say you seek power of the Rune of Death, too?
The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death.
The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation...
Unleashing the rune now would be unthinkable...
The Fingers would never permit it. Nor would the Greater Will.
... But here we are... The Fingers, dormant, severing our link to the Greater Will.
The realm, and all life, in ruins. Impossible events transpire, beyond the ken of the Fingers.
Who is to say that the cardinal sin must be cardinal forever?
Go on. Finish the job. Take the course you deem most worthy."

Causality Manipulation: (Via the Golden Orders fundamentals of the Law of Causality and Regression, one can revert themselves either to a previous state removing all of their current afflictions and status effects or change the meaning of their current state, which is used to prevent incoming damage by altering causality to reflect said damage to the dealer)

Law Manipulation: For those with the Power to Manipulate Order (those strong enough to either create a Rune of Mending (Marika, Goldmask, Fia etc) or fundamentally Alter the nature of a Great Rune via the influence of their curse (Malenia, Mogh etc)

Basically you are able to manipulate causality to either change it (turn incoming damage taken into damage delt in gameplay terms)

Or revert yourself to a previous state (removing stats effects in gameplay terms)

Law of Causality description.

"One of the incantations of the Golden Order fundamentalists.
One of the key fundamentals.
Manifests a small ring of causality within that allows the caster to
automatically retaliate upon receiving a certain number of blows.
The fundamentalists describe the Golden Order through the
powers of regression and causality. Causality is the pull between
meanings; that which links all things in a chain of relation.

Law of Regression description.

"Incantation of the Golden Order fundamentalists.
One of the key fundamentals.
Heals all negative statuses, dispels special effects, and reveals mimicry in all its forms.
The fundamentalists describe the Golden Order through the powers of regression and causality. Regression is the pull of meaning; that all things yearn eternally to converge."

The power of the Golden Order incantations such as 'Littany of a proper death' allow 'True Death' to be inflicted to those that live in death, presumably by manipulating causality to alter their current state into one where death is possible.

This should grant the ability to negate Type 7 immortality by essentially inflicting the concept of death into those that such abilities kill by forming an 'Image of Order'. The manipulation of the Rune of Death or weapons formed out of it should also allow one to bypass Immortality Type 5 for being able to kill Demi-Gods who essentially lived outside of the concepts of life and death.

"One of the incantations of the Golden Order fundamentalists.
Used by hunters of Those Who Live in Death.
Creates an image of Order, dealing holy damage to nearby foes.
This incantation is especially damaging to Those Who Live in Death. Any felled by this incantation cannot be revived.
The role of the hunters is to stamp out defiled reason — all for the perfection of the Golden Order."

TLDR: Marika/Radagon and Elden Beast should get. Conceptual Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Law Manipulation and Sealing an power null for type 7 immortality (as a pre shattering key only)

Malekith should get limited conceptual manipulation via the power of the Rune of Death and power null for immortality type 5.

Gideon should get Causality Manipulation and Minor Law Manipulation via incantations.

I can't think of any thing else of the top of my head.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah these are all straightforward enough I agree

 

[Mr. Bambu]

These are fine, but it should be noted in this thread that their Concept Manip and Sealing are no casual feats to pull off by any means. A slight amount of Concept Manip sent their whole world tumbling such that many parties were trying to fix it as the entire focus of the game.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

bump

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's not a justification for Type 1 conceptual manipulation, but I can see the rest.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

That's not a justification for Type 1 conceptual manipulation, but I can see the rest.

yeh thats fair, thats the only thing I wasn't sure about.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

That's not a justification for Type 1 conceptual manipulation, but I can see the rest.

Would type 2 fit best here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, it's Type 2. You have quotes like this for example

It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.
It was the vassal beast of the Greater Will and the living incarnation of the concept of Order.

Which is a Type 2 statement.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah, it's Type 2. You have quotes like this for example

Which is a Type 2 statement.

Thanks for your help man, much appreciated.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

updated the OP to indicate concepts would be type 2*

 

[Paul_Frank]

These are fine, but it should be noted in this thread that their Concept Manip and Sealing are no casual feats to pull off by any means. A slight amount of Concept Manip sent their whole world tumbling such that many parties were trying to fix it as the entire focus of the game.

The concept manip or sealing having effects that others had to resolve doesn't mean it wasn't casual to do though

Just that removing a concept has a disastrous effect on everyone else, as it should

 

[Blackcurrant91]

The concept manip or sealing having effects that others had to resolve doesn't mean it wasn't casual to do though

Just that removing a concept has a disastrous effect on everyone else, as it should

I would tend to agree with this. Marika 'plucking' the rune of Death from the Elden Ring does seem as tho it was fairly casual. Destroying it entirely would probably be different however.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The concept manip or sealing having effects that others had to resolve doesn't mean it wasn't casual to do though

Just that removing a concept has a disastrous effect on everyone else, as it should

Radagon was working to repair it for some time, and the whole ordeal was a very large plot for Marika. This is definitely not "casual".

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Radagon was working to repair it for some time, and the whole ordeal was a very large plot for Marika. This is definitely not "casual".

The removal of the Rune of Death and the Shattering are very different. The Golden Order itself IS the act of Marika removing the Rune of Death and sealing it within the Black Blade. Radagon repairing the Shattering is alot different then removing one aspect of the Elden Ring. It would be like fixing a puzzle with 1 piece missing instead of doing the entire thing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Radagon was working to repair it for some time, and the whole ordeal was a very large plot for Marika. This is definitely not "casual".

Yes, Radagon was working to fix Marika destroying the entire ring, that's very different from the addition or subtraction of pieces of the ring, which is done relatively easily by anyone who does it

We also don't know how long Radagon even tried to fix the ring, we just know he did from the one trailer and stuff, but as far as we know, they were sealed pretty soon after the ring shattered, so we don't know how much time he even had to attempt anything

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's implied to be an ongoing thing- that is, not just a sudden snap. It isn't "casual". We have no evidence of it being "casual". We do not need to describe every single feat as "casual".

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It's implied to be an ongoing thing- that is, not just a sudden snap. It isn't "casual". We have no evidence of it being "casual". We do not need to describe every single feat as "casual".

the 'ongoing' part is the affects of the shattering. This is entirely different to using the power of being the vasal of the Elden Beast to reform the Elden Ring into a different configuration.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

the only reason 'casual' is even mentioned is because of the description 'plucked' which does kind of imply it was casual...

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The Shattering, as in, the Shattering of the Elden Ring. Undoing that (changing the configuration), has been taking Radagon some time. I'm stickin' to my evaluation.

Plucked is just a word, it's a fairly weak justification.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

The Shattering, as in, the Shattering of the Elden Ring. Undoing that (changing the configuration), has been taking Radagon some time. I'm stickin' to my evaluation.

Plucked is just a word, it's a fairly weak justification.

I would personally disagree with this. Changing the configuration of the pieces of the Elden Ring when you have them all is way different to gathering all the Shards together again and repairing it. Radagon doesn't even have any of the Great Runes to begin repairing the Elden Ring. All he could do was set events in motion that allowed someone else to gather the Great Runes.

Equating repairing the Elden Ring itself with changing its configuration is not a 1 to 1 thing.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I see what you're saying tho, we could probably keep this as just Marika and Elden Beast in their prime with a different key pre shattering. Radagon in the form we fight him wouldnt even nessacarily have access to this due to not being able to manipulate the Elden Ring direclty without a mending rune to repair it.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Adjusted the OP to indicate this would be a 'pre shattering' key.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This would give Maliketh and anyone who uses any extention of the Rune of Death pretty potent conceptual death hax. That I think, would at least be combat applicable.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This would give Maliketh and anyone who uses any extention of the Rune of Death pretty potent conceptual death hax. That I think, would at least be combat applicable.

Yes I agree, his death hax should have always been conceptual tbh.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This would give Maliketh and anyone who uses any extention of the Rune of Death pretty potent conceptual death hax. That I think, would at least be combat applicable.

I only say 'Limited' in that he can only manipulate the concept of death, I didn't intend to imply not combat applicable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's implied to be an ongoing thing- that is, not just a sudden snap. It isn't "casual". We have no evidence of it being "casual". We do not need to describe every single feat as "casual".

Yeah, Marika breaking the Elden Ring isn't that same as Marika casually breaking the Elden Ring.

Marika 'plucking' the rune of Death from the Elden Ring does seem as tho it was fairly casual.

I mean, not really. She took a shard that represented death from the Elden Ring and then had Maliketh keep it. Removing or adding things to the Ring is what effects concepts, not their own power.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah, Marika breaking the Elden Ring isn't that same as Marika casually breaking the Elden Ring.

I mean, not really. She took a shard that represented death from the Elden Ring and then had Maliketh keep it. Removing or adding things to the Ring is what effects concepts, not their own power.

Yeh but it's implied you need to be the Chosen vasal of either the Two Fingers or The Greater Will itself to do so.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeh but it's implied you need to be the Chosen vasal of either the Two Fingers or The Greater Will itself to do so.

The Chosen Vessel just houses the Elden Ring, anyone can effect the Ring as long as they have the ability to just gain access to it. It's why as soon as Radagon can no longer stop the Tarnished they can freely adjust the Elden Ring however they see fit.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

The Chosen Vessel just houses the Elden Ring, anyone can effect the Ring as long as they have the ability to just gain access to it. It's why as soon as Radagon can no longer stop the Tarnished they can freely adjust the Elden Ring however they see fit.

I would suggest the Tarnished can only do this because we have the required amount of Great Runes. Which is why the Two Fingers send you to the capital with 2 Great Runes instead of needing all of them, also this wouldn't really make sense in the context of what is required to form a mending rune.

 

[Qawsedf234]

can only do this because we have the required amount of Great Runes

Not really. All the Great Runes do is increase the strength of the Tarnished and allows them to complete the story. The Tarnished can reassemble the original Elden Ring or change it with any of the Great Runes they find as soon as Radagon can no longer stop them. The Elden Ring itself is what is used to control concepts and changing it doesn't seem all that difficult.

Heck, Godfrey was planning to do the same thing and he's just swole.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Not really. All the Great Runes do is increase the strength of the Tarnished and allows them to complete the story. The Tarnished can reassemble the original Elden Ring or change it with any of the Great Runes they find as soon as Radagon can no longer stop them. The Elden Ring itself is what is used to control concepts and changing it doesn't seem all that difficult.

Heck, Godfrey was planning to do the same thing and he's just swole.

Yeh changing it once it's repaired and whole to a certain extent isn't difficult but repairing it seems to someone who has gathered a sufficient amount of it's Shards. I think we are both essentially saying the same thing. You're just saying, it's the one who is most empowered by runes is the one most likely to have access to the Elden Ring, no that does make sense I get you.

I guess what I was saying is changing it doesnt seem possible till you have enough of its pieces (only due to it being shattered). Having it literally be inside of you would make this alot easier as well.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Shall I update the Pages accordingly?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I hate updated the profiles accordingly, seeing as we had multiple mods agree. This can be closed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

hate updated the profiles accordingly, seeing as we had multiple mods agree. This can be closed.

Well we agreed upon the powers, not the wording and more importantly not giving everyone two keys for some reason.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Well we agreed upon the powers, not the wording and more importantly not giving everyone two keys for some reason.

I mean they literally do not have access to the Elden Ring post shattering so it is the best way to handle it imo. Do you have another way to represent the fact that their concept manip literally doesnt work post shattering? I literally stated I was going to add a separate key due to Wok's issues around concept manip

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Well we agreed upon the powers, not the wording and more importantly not giving everyone two keys for some reason.

Also no one indicated there was any issues with the wording. Probably should have raised that earlier in the thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

mean they literally do not have access to the Elden Ring post shattering so it is the best way to handle it imo.

Well Marika still has the Ring inside of her, the Elden Beast is the ring and Maliketh still has the Rune before or after the Ring's shattering. The Elden Ring if anything would just be an additional P&A tabber since they can or cannot have access to it, rather than a different key.

issues with the wording.

No, I kean what's on the profile. Like Maliketh's justification is a bit of a run on sentence for example.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Well Marika still has the Ring inside of her, the Elden Beast is the ring and Maliketh still has the Rune before or after the Ring's shattering. The Elden Ring if anything would just be an additional P&A tabber since they can or cannot have access to it, rather than a different key.


No, I kean what's on the profile. Like Maliketh's justification is a bit of a run on sentence for example.

Yes but the shattered ring clearly doesn't work any longer...it's like the whole plot of the game. Elden Beast would again only be able to alter concepts with the repaired or pre shattered ring. I dont see how adding it as a separate power tabber makes sense in the context of the plot of the game.

Malekith doesn't have a separate key because he doesn't need one.

I see the issue with Malekith. I have re-worded it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes but the shattered ring clearly doesn't work any longer...it's like the whole plot of the game.

But the main issue is that Marika (or the Elden Beast) wouldn't get physically stronger or really weaker from the Ring. Since at the end both are restored to some original state.

The key difference would just be getting rid of the second ratings and making the second tabber "With the Elden Ring".

Elden Beast would again only be able to alter concepts with the repaired or pre shattered ring.

Not really. The Ring is just what governs stuff. The Elden Beast, or anyone for that matter, is able to remove or add things back to the Ring if they want to by changing runes that are attached to it. What the Elden Beast lacks is that after the shattering it doesn't have all the runes it used to have.