Either a CRT or a question about Ditto (Pokemon)

[Jackythejack]

Looking at Ditto's profile (and his horrid loss rate because people are dumb), I couldn't help but wonder if his dura and AP should at least have a base? I know we say floor tier is Low 7-B off scaling to Pikachu but that doesn't apply to when Ditto is just...being a ditto. I think that it should get a tier for when it's just a blob, outside of just "unknown".

Shouldn't it at least scale to something like Cleffa, which is a literal baby but still 8-C. Or at the very least it should scale to Magikarp which is 9-A, considering Ditto has no reputation of being the weakest pokemon. Hell it being stronger than Magikarp should likely still warrant a 9-A at least. It just seems weird that this thing could lose to a 9-B when even baby pokemon, which Ditto should at least be comparable to, are 8-C. Maybe this doesn't work but if so, I'm just wondering...why doesn't it work? It seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I do agree that Ditto should get a tier in its base form considering it’s capable of fighting without using Transform. Also, as far as I’m aware, Magikarp and Baby Pokémon will later be upgraded to Town.

 

[Jackythejack]

Okay well that's later in the future. Right now it still sort of needs one because the fact it lost to a 9-B with a gun is kind of ridiculous.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

considering it’s capable of fighting without using Transform.

Did he fight without transform (excluding struggle move)?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Did he fight without transform (excluding struggle move)?

Aside from Struggle, not really. However, it should at least scale above Magikarp since it’s regarded as one of the weakest Pokémon.

 

[Arceus0x]

I do agree that Ditto should get a tier in its base form considering it’s capable of fighting without using Transform. Also, as far as I’m aware, Magikarp and Baby Pokémon will later be upgraded to Town.

not anymore, i ain't scaling pokemon anymore and i don't think anyone will remember the fact that you can do that

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Aside from Struggle, not really. However, it should at least scale above Magikarp since it’s regarded as one of the weakest Pokémon.

Imo it's better to have it as unknown than scale to Magikarp just because Magikarp is the weakest pokemon, because Ditto has never fought, and can't fight besides struggle game mechanic.

 

[Jackythejack]

Magikarp is the weakest, therefor Ditto is not the weakest. Therefor Ditto is stronger, therefor Ditto upscales from Magikarp.

It's like, simple logic. At the very least you have to say it's valid for dura. Also why is struggle a game mechanic? I don't think it's much of a stretch to say pokemon can...struggle. Ditto could probably throw its body weight around.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Yeah, Ditto may upscale above Magikarp.

But he has no physical feat for his base form. He may be slightly above Magikarp, or maybe way above it. Maybe he isn't considered the weakest pokemon because he can transform into a stronger one. It's just unknown, because he as never fought. And, as thus, I think "Unknown" is way better than just scale him to the weakest pokemon.

Struggle causes damage to every pokemon, so you can't really argue for that, and besides games, I don't think he's used it.

 

[Jackythejack]

Dude that's straight crazy ngl. I feel like in any other verse the idea that a normal character upscales from the canonically weakest character would not be given a second thought.

Struggle's actually been used in the manga according to the actual page for Struggle on Bulbapedia. It's not just a game thing.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Okay so I wanted to revise Pokemon for awhile since the pages are genuinely terrible. However, not trying to break any current standards, here's a write up for Ditto's P&A to add to the OP. Some notes:

• Abilities should be list seperately since a Pokemon can only have one ability
• Immunity to sleep and soul manip is uncited. Enhanced Senses is too but I'm leaving it for now since it seems lke something Pokemon can do.
• Why are we so against Struggle being a valid form of attack, Ditto can use it to hurt things. Don't get why it's so controversial
  • As such, Ditto should get NPI.
• It shouldn't really get shapeshifting but Transformation. Shapeshifting mores entails a very flluid power, wheras Ditto's is much more rigid. They should probably be the same power with different types but eh
  • Its Transformation is done by self-modifying its own genetic and cellular structure, so it should get Body Control

Should be everything

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Okay so I wanted to revise Pokemon for awhile since the pages are genuinely terrible. However, not trying to break any current standards, here's a write up for Ditto's P&A to add to the OP. Some notes:

Why's imposter treated as Reactive Evolution?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Dude that's straight crazy ngl. I feel like in any other verse the idea that a normal character upscales from the canonically weakest character would not be given a second thought.

Look at the Unknown Tier category. There are many characters which have unknown physical stats because they haven't shown any such as DBGT Goku or Annoying Dog.

Even if they should be at least above the weakest character in their verse, they're still rated as unknown

 

[Jackythejack]

okay but we have no reason to believe that Ditto isn't at least as strong as the canonically weakest pokemon. It wouldn't make sense for Magikarp to be declared the weakest and then for Ditto to...be weaker?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Unknown rating doesn't mean he's immediatly weaker than anyone, though. It just means there aren't enough/concrete proofs for a concrete rating

 

[Jackythejack]

If he's not weaker than he should at least be comparable and therefor the same tier as Magikarp.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

But it is unknown, because he's not shown any concrete physical feat. I can agree with him having an explanation similar to the one at this profile.

But I don't think a concrete tiering should be given, unless we give any character from any verse with unknown tiering "At Least 10-B/10-C" because they should be at the very very least comparable than adults/stronger than babies

However, if people think he should gain a solid rating just because he should scale Magikarp (which I don't), I suggest to add an "At Least" before the rating and put the justification with something like this:

(Haven't shown feats in terms of physical Stats due to relying on his Abilities. Should be stronger than [[Magikarp]], [insert here reasoning])

 

[Jackythejack]

Dude that profile is crap wow lol.

Either way it just makes sense in my opinion. Ditto is a pokemon, and he's not the weakest. That already confirms he's physically stronger than Magikarp.

 

[Cropfist]

Okay so I wanted to revise Pokemon for awhile since the pages are genuinely terrible. However, not trying to break any current standards, here's a write up for Ditto's P&A to add to the OP. Some notes:

• Immunity to sleep and soul manip is uncited.

Holdover from ghost-type immunity probably

• Why are we so against Struggle being a valid form of attack, Ditto can use it to hurt things. Don't get why it's so controversial
  • As such, Ditto should get NPI.

Struggle is game mechanics that has never been depicted in canon, and running out of PP is inapplicable to a realistic fight scenario

Should be everything

Please add that it copies the opponent's skills, losing every thread because it "has no experience with copied powers" is ridiculous when it can replicate skilled moves such as fighting-type attacks.

 

[Ayewale]

Magikarp is the weakest, therefor Ditto is not the weakest. Therefor Ditto is stronger, therefor Ditto upscales from Magikarp.

It's like, simple logic. At the very least you have to say it's valid for dura. Also why is struggle a game mechanic? I don't think it's much of a stretch to say pokemon can...struggle. Ditto could probably throw its body weight around.

Check his profile again. Magikarp's ratings are based off the feats of Elder Magikarp (as in, well-trained, non-standard Magikarp) jumping high into the sky and landing unto the ground. Ditto would absolutely not scale off that, so in a best case scenario ditto would get 'Below Human Level' for a rating at base.

I also question how you would give Ditto a pokedex entry when it has not shown any ability to fight in it's base form whatsoever, which is supported by the fact that it knows only one move. You can't just say 'game mechanics' and move on; if they wanted it to do literally anything else but shapeshift, they'd give it another move: the best example is, funny enough, Magikarp, who learns Tackle, Flail, Bounce & Hydro Pump. There's nothing for it to use it's AP off.

• I also couldn't find any appearance across everything in Pokemon showing Ditto being capable of fighting in it's base form. Unless I missed something.

Also, Magikarp's Diamond Pokedex entry states: "It is said to be the world’s weakest Pokémon". 'It is said' implies this is a saying and a rumor and not hard scientific fact (the vast majority of other pokedex entry statements are definitive in nature and don't have any qualifiers like 'People say'). So there isn't any actual proof suggesting that it's definitively the weakest Pokemon, only that people speculate such because it only knows splash most of the time.

We also don't know what 'weakest Pokemon' entails specifically. Does it refer to it's stats? Which stats specifically? Does it refer only to it's abilities? It's movepool? All of the above? No clue. So even if we did take the statement at face value there isn't any way for us to use it as proof that Ditto's AP and durability > Magikarp's.

 

[Ayewale]

Okay so I wanted to revise Pokemon for awhile since the pages are genuinely terrible. However, not trying to break any current standards, here's a write up for Ditto's P&A to add to the OP. Some notes:

• Abilities should be list seperately since a Pokemon can only have one ability
• Immunity to sleep and soul manip is uncited. Enhanced Senses is too but I'm leaving it for now since it seems lke something Pokemon can do.
• Why are we so against Struggle being a valid form of attack, Ditto can use it to hurt things. Don't get why it's so controversial
  • As such, Ditto should get NPI.
• It shouldn't really get shapeshifting but Transformation. Shapeshifting mores entails a very flluid power, wheras Ditto's is much more rigid. They should probably be the same power with different types but eh
  • Its Transformation is done by self-modifying its own genetic and cellular structure, so it should get Body Control

Should be everything

1. You wouldn't need to list them separately. Just put shit like 'Power Nullification with Mold Breaker', and whatnot.

2. I also have no clue where immunity to sleep comes from, as well as soul manip (a few pokemon do that if you take Pokken as canon)

3. Okay I'm actually willing to chalk up Struggle as being game mechanics. While it is based off PP (something that isn't game mechanics), it's never referred to by NPCs in the same way PP is. Like not once, I think. It's also clearly not a 'real' move because no Pokemon can learn it and no abilities affect it even when they should (Reckless, a move that boosts the damage of moves with recoil, does nothing to Struggle. It also ignores Rock Head/Magic Guard cancelling recoil,) Mirror Move cannot copy it, the Normal Gem doesn't boost it, it can hit ghost types despite it's description not saying so. The manga (which references PP very often and solidifies it as not being a game mechanic) also has absolutely no documentation of struggle being used when a Pokemon runs out of PP. I know that for Pokemon we chalk up a lot of shit that would be 'game mechancis' to being real but c'mon man

3.5. The reason why struggle can hit ghost types isn't because they designed a normal-type move that was supposed to, but it's becaues you could otherwise create infinite battles. The move exists to prevent game softlocking; it is the definition of a game mechanic.