Edo Tensei Revenant vs Kaiōken

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

In this discussion we will be looking at a hypothetical situation in which an edo tensei revenant attempts to take the Kaiōken to its limits. Though the question that is on the mind is just how high of a multiplier can an EDR use before there is too much strain on its body to regenerate. Is it infinity? I mean Madara was an Edo Tensei but he could still die (even though his death was an asspull). And there is a limit to Regenerationn so I'd like to discuss about this.

 

[AstralKing7]

Nani?????

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

So basically, a person with Edo Tensei uses Kaioken?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I'm pretty sure it's the same as normal. An Edo Itachi would be able to Kaioken more than the amount of an alive Itachi but it's body would just instantly tear itself apart. Sure it would regen, but then it would just tear apart again. Over and Over until they stop using it or bring it down to levels their durability can handle.

 

[BlackPAIN99]

Can you compare the Eight Gates with Kaio-Ken? if yes I would guess 8 times.
But since I consider the Kaio-Ken to be much more stressful I estimate that he gets a maximum of one KK times 3 until his bones start to break and his muscles tear.
all about that would simply be ineffective.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Goku could only Kaio-Ken three times when he was 5-B. Anyone lower would probably die or just be able to do 2z

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

That's why I'm asking this question, Edo Tensei people have unlimited stamina and can regenerate, I want to see if the KK can inhibit that, and if so then how big of a multiplier is possible?

Also I don't consider 8 gates = Kaiōken because Town level to Moon level is too ridiculous be considered a multiplier, 8 gates really increases the power exponentially.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, the problem is that in Naruto the body can take a lot more of an increase than in DB. The eight gates makes somwone thousands of times stronger, for exemple.

So it depends if you say that kaioken is limited because of the physiology in DB, or simply because it's a weakness to the technique.

In the latter case, it should go up to times 50 before the damage overcomes the Regenerationn rate.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What makes you say it's 50? If it's a weakness of the technique being that it relies on the durability of the holder, then it would only be 2 times considering how much weaker the Edo tensei are compared to Goku.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, not how Kaio-ken works... at all.

If no Goku wouldn't have more trouble using it with SSB than without it.


It increases the energy in your body, but this causes it to get damaged. Any muscle damage is a non-factor for them, and anything that doesn't blow them up is still managable enough.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean you cant really move if your muscles are damaged. That's why Goku collapsed after beating Vegeta. For the Edo Tensei, 3 times would have them be constantly ripping and regenerating. Going past that would have them barely able to function.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You can't move if you have been stabbed through the face and are dust either, they have a magical energy and a power that bind their soul to what has become dust that doesn't care about any of that.

And times 3 ripping them apart? What dude? That wasn't like that even for goku, and the Edo inherently are able to take more energy than they physically have.

 

[AstralKing7]

Muscles were being ripped...Goku was arms or legs never ripped off

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Arms and legs aren't muscles, those are limbs.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I tend to think that the KK relies on working the cardiovascular system to its limits, I mean Goku's muscles were throbbing like in a heartbeat rhythm after all. But I could be wrong.

 

[BlackPAIN99]

Kaio-Ken also has something to do with Ki control in this case with Chakra.

Goku said that he had to concentrate enormously when he combined Blue with Kaio-Ken, if he had made a mistake he would have died.

So what does it look like, is there anyone in Naruto who can get close to the Ki control of DB characters?

i mean the fight in BoG is probably the best proof for their enormous controll over their body, since Beerus (Low 2-c ) could fight without problems against Goku (3-A). Normally Goku would have exploded after every little touch of Beerus, if you consider the power difference.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I thought it worked via ki control. The ki control determined how much strain would be put on the cardiovascular system. Of course, that's kind of my little headcanon. If someone like Sakura was Edo Tensei and used Kaioken, I feel like they'd maybe be up to times 3, but the effects on their body would be worse than activating the 8th gate in Naruto. But yeah, that's just my thought on it.

 

[Akreious]

Ki Control largely determines how far you can use Kaioken rather than AP. This is why the more controlling Blue form is able to go Kaioken while Super Saiyan cannot despite being able to stay in Super Saiyan absolutely casually.

So it wouldn't really matter if someone was Edo Tensei since their Ki Control is still at the same point as when they were alive. It'd just give them more chances to master their Ki Control since using Kaioken wouldn't instantly wreck their bodies if they go overboard or use it too much and there'd be no lasting effects.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, pretty much every little kid has to control it so well that itatches up with even the smallest waves of chakra even if thay without the need to think about it.

Those specialized in it, for exemple a medic, needs to direct it specifically to cells.


As for Kaioken being worse than eight gates... no. Gai was able to ise it because he dedicated his life to it, someone normal using anything above the second gate would easily die. Using the eight gate would just vaporize thei blood and break every none of theirs by simply stepping.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean, Goku's a prodigy with ki that's trained with it since he was like 14 and even into his 40's he still can't use Kaioken on top of other forms without the form giving him better control.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Isn't this the wrong board?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Do discussions have to be for a series? I think the way this is worded makes it fine.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, Goku's a prodigy with ki that's trained with it since he was like 14 and even into his 40's he still can't use Kaioken on top of other forms without the form giving him better control.

But when has he concentrated his energy on cellural levels? The amount of time he does something for doesn't really mean much.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Is this coming from Naruto's rasenshuriken? That attack is cellular because of how wind chakra works, not because he's actively choosing to attack at the cellular level.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, it comes from healing needing you to make chakra heal the cells specifically, or else you jist kill the one your healing.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Risci means for medical ninjutsu. It works by sending chakra into the cells to stimulate their repliction, speeding up the injury's recovery.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Oh I didn't see the medic part, I thought you were saying that even little kids had the chakra control to do that.

I don't think any of the Edo Tensei were medics tho.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ofcourse, there is stuff like how deidara needs to control his chakra so that his clays forms cell sized bombs as well.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Nvm, OP isn't talking bout canon Edo Tensei. Yeah, then a medic would do pretty well.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Oh I didn't see the medic part, I thought you were saying that even little kids had the chakra control to do that

Of course not, most need to dedicate a decade woth of studies to become good enough for that.

Sakura was the prodigy there, and yet she was still useless.

 

[Akreious]

Oh OP is asking how far an Edo Tensei can go before going pop.

Well it depends on the person. Goku, a complete prodigy in Ki Control that hails from a race of beings that considers Ki Control to the equivalent of walking could barely manage Kaiokenx4 without pushing his body to the point that literally everything hurts (He would've died if it weren't for said prodigious capabilities).

Medical Ninjutsu shouldn't be considered to be the equivalent of Kaioken here. If I apply a unique radiation that heals cells in an general area via stimulating their Regenerationn, does that make my control over radiation Cellular level? No, it's just the effect of the actual ability and skill in hand; not my individual capability.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Exept you do need to controll it on that level, or it doesn't work, that was the whole point why it's so ridicolously hard. You also ignored deidara there.

I would prefer you showcased their best showing of coontrol tough, because saying tht they are good in verse doesn't meant much for another.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Medical ninjutsu isn't just applying chakra and hey presto they are healed. It has to be done correctly and even the slightest failure destroys the cells. It is dependent on the individual since the faster they can successfully heal the person the better they are as a medical ninja. Using ki in ones own body isn't really comparable to using chakra in someone elses body.

 

[Akreious]

"Exept you do need to controll it on that level, or it doesn't work, that was the whole point why it's so ridicolously hard. You also ignored deidara there."

Where the hay did you guys get this? Unless I'm completely crazy (Probably am. It's 2:30 AM), I've never heard of a Medical Nin ever needing to control their chakra onto specific cellular levels. All that's required is that they scale the amount of chakra they output to the severity of the wound; if they don't, their normal circulation is disrupted and thereby putting them in a comatose state. Pretty sure Kabuto did this to Kiba.

"I would prefer you showcased their best showing of coontrol tough, because saying tht they are good in verse doesn't meant much for another."

Besides the fact that we're equalizing Chakra control to Ki control here (This shouldn't be the case. Normal Chakra and Ki are so extremely different it's staggering), Goku has the Instant Transmission he learned with absolutely no problems whilst healing to go back home on Planet Yardrat. This should be roughly equivalent to the Flying Thunder God Technique as both are using teleportation with the only requirement being either a link/connection (Flying thuder god) or a signal lock-on (For Instant Transmission). The Flying Thunder God, as a technique, is S-Rank compared to the normal Healing Nin's Jutsu being A-rank. Goku in the manga also learned Hakai which is flat out Existence Erasure. And this is Goku; the "Haxless" character.

If we want to go into Non-Canon territory, Goku literally healed a bird from death after it got caught in a massive explosion's shockwave and flew away like nothing happened. I'm not sure about you, but I'm pretty sure flying close to an explosion of the magnitude Goku and Cooler were throwing out would probably shatter every bone in a human's body, let alone a bird's.

"Medical ninjutsu isn't just applying chakra and hey presto they are healed. It has to be done correctly and even the slightest failure destroys the cells. It is dependent on the individual since the faster they can successfully heal the person the better they are as a medical ninja. Using ki in ones own body isn't really comparable to using chakra in someone elses body."

Citation please, because this seems to be a little exaggerated. If it was such a deadly jutsu, why don't people learn it and purposefully never master it just for the "Kill your cells on a large scale" factor alone?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The flying thunder technique is not even remotly comparable to that, and anyone can use it. It is not about controll, it's about making a seal capable of making you travel to a void and then escape it from another seal. What teleportation is more similiar to is what sasuke uses, and that doesn't really take much control at all.

Also, Kabuto did use the stuff as a weapon, but since it needs physical contact, it is far from really usefull.

You also seem to be ignoring deidara, again...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

As for Cell stuff, Healing Resuscitation Regenerationn Technique is the one that deals with cells specifically.

But again, what is the one feat where he controlled it best? And don't equate the amount of control needed for them in Naruto, since that doesn't matter. What is the best control he has showcased?

 

[Akreious]

"What teleportation is more similiar to is what sasuke uses, and that doesn't really take much control at all."

you mean the jutsu that comes from his Unique Rinnegan? Uhhh. How about no? Plus Goku is able to teleport to the flipping afterlife and back with Instant Transmission. Travelling between border worlds is literally nothing new.

"You also seem to be ignoring deidara, again..."

So if I make nanomachines the size of cells and use them against enemies, that makes me have Cellular level capabilities...?

"Also, Kabuto did use the stuff as a weapon, but since it needs physical contact, it is far from really usefull."

I cannot tell you how many times Naruto characters went into CQC. Good Taijutsu + Cell Damaging Healing Jutsu = Dying enemy over the course of a fight.

"But again, what is the one feat where he controlled it best? And don't equate the amount of control needed for them in Naruto, since that doesn't matter. What is the best control he has showcased?"

I have no idea what you're asking of me right now. Where he controlled it the best? controlled what the best? Instant Transmission? Because he just puts his fingers up to his head and poof he's gone.

I AM equating it to Naruto because that's explicitly what we're discussing here. If we equalize Ki Control and Chakra Control, we can equalize how difficult their respective techniques are as well relative to eachother.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And tell me, how does that showcase his controll over ki? It never went deep into how hard it is to use, so it doesn't say much about his controll at all.

If you make them by controlling you life energy to make them take that form, yes.

Not how ot works. You need to open a palm and hope the enemy doesn't move away while you are setting up the jutsu. Instead of using something like tasering them to the point where their nerves are done for, or if you want to go for the medic nin route, mess up their nervous system so that trying to move one muscle makes another random one move.

No, I am asking what his best showing of control over his ki was. What is the thing that makes making your lifeenergy make cells from hair recreate a body, or making a dozen meters tall clone of clay take the shape of cellural sized bombs.

You really don't ubderstand what verse equal works like. Iy merely makes iy so that an ability that works on chakra will work on ki, and vice-versa.it does not make something harder or easier to use.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I really do wish that Naruto characters used nen instead of chakra, it would be easier to explain

 

[AstralKing7]

Man tbf Goku just started to really control his ki well in DBS. DB Goku could never make weapons or ki forms like Vegito could. I always wondered why but Vegito was most likely the reason cause vegeta can make a sword with ki.