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Dynamic Duo Tournament, the very first match!

Is the genjitsu shit mind manip? If so, how likely is it for him to start off with, and how many layers? (not necessarily for this match alone)
 
Needs direct eye contact if I recall correctly
Iirc, Mangekyou Genjutsu doesn't need the target to look at you, only that you look at their eyes, while the amount of layers is around 3.

and Genjutsu's aren't an automatic wincon either, most aren't at least
If the opponent can't resist it then Genjutsu is a pretty broken that may not instantly defeat someone but that pretty much gives an easy win to the user
 
anyways, time for the actual debate, and I'm leaning to Naruto and Sakura, does winter and penny have a way to bypass Sakura's healing?
 
Naruto's definitely gonna give Sakura one of his Chakra Cloaks so that way he can connect their chakras together, also because Kurama's Chakra is poisonous to anyone that isn't his ally and the fact that it amps her so she'll have an extra weapon at her disposal which is a nasty combination to deal with when you include the fact that she can use her healing Offensively to cause her opponents cells to rapidly reproduce more of themseleves so fast that they kill themselves in the process to counter act Healing Factors like she did to that Psuedo-Jinchūriki she fought. Naruto can also just whip out the Kurama Avatar to block her from getting hit if he doesn't use the TSO to do the same thing in case she gets put in a rough spot. Not to mention the sheer AoE that both of them have with their attacks makes dodging them really hard. All of this without even mentioning the Shadow Clone, Rasenshuriken and Bijū-Dama Spam.
 
Penny alone hard counters most of those things, due to being a robot she wont be affected by poison or cell manipulation, and her hyper-enhanced senses hard counter shadow clones as she can analyze the makeup and energy signaturea of clones to determine which one is the real one, a tactic shes actually used in-canon before. AoE attacks are going to have a much less impactful effect thanks to both winter and penny having multiple forcefields to protect themselves, both having the ability to fly, and winter having the ability to bypass nature and sakura blocking her attacks by using Glyphs
 
Bypass Nature? What the **** does that mean? In either case aside from Aura, Winter and Penny aren't bringing anything to the table that Sakura and Naruto haven't seen before and even if Penny can tell which is the real Naruto, he's literally fought people who can do the same before so he both knows how to play around that and doesn't care about that either since he mostly uses them for Ratpack Tactics to spam usually impossible dodge maneuvers since he's forced people far above him in stats to be unable to do anything about it multiple times. Naruto and Sakura are gonna have another advantage in their arsenal that people don't tend to bring up a lot which is the Substitution Jutsu which is the Ultimate Get Out of Jail Free Card seeing as it allows the user to replace themselves with something else to avoid getting hit or to even get out of being grappled by several people. Naruto and Sakura both have pretty good Analytical Prediction with Sakura's allowing her to read an opponent's every move over time to be able to work even in her blind spots and Naruto's Sensory Abilities changing his to Borderline Precog by allowing him to predict your every move just by sensing your emotions combined with the absurd Sensory Range Buff Sage Mode and Six Paths Sage Mode gave it to make his predictions even more accurate. Naruto can also ignore Durability in several ways like the Rasenshuriken, Frog Kata, TSOs, etc. He can also just use the Kurama Avatar to restrain them since it has higher LS than himself so he and Sakura can just wail on them. Naruto can also have all of his clones use the Kurama Avatar as shown in his fight with Sasuke. Both Naruto and Sasuke are also skilled enough to be able to swap hands with Sharingan Users, people who can automatically copy your own fighting style and add it to their own and they both did pretty damn well against them to boot with Naruto winning his fight against Sasuke and Sakura almost winning hers. Not to mention that Kurama can also refill Naruto's Chakra if he somehow ever runs out and considering that it took him fighting for damn near 48 Hours with Sasuke, Madara and Kaguya to exhaust his reseverse, that says a lot so he'll just keep getting fully restored the whole fight by Kurama and Sakura can just refill his Chakra too by using her Byakugo Seal if she's not using it to fight.
 
Bypass in that a lot of Winter's ranged attacks dont use projectiles and thus wouldnt be able to be blocked by conventional means. She can literally point in their general directions and lock them in AoE gravity glyphs to prevent them from moving or have glyphs appear on them that would freeze them from the inside out.

Analytical prediction isnt going to be of much help here, penny and winter in this key both scale above Neo who is skilled enough to bypass the senses of a character who has passive precognition and instinctive reactions that are good enough to let them fight while blind. (She did this after getting serious as she was about to kill the old lady with this)

Rasenshuriken and Frog Kata wouldnt work due to aura and forcefields protecting penny and winter.

This is stats equalized is it not? Kurama would also have its stats equalized meaning it wouldnt be able to restrain them.

Funny thing about that sharing an users thing, theres literally a person in rwby who can do the exact same thing and she is considered low-tier in skill despite having copied dozens of fighting styles including the fighting styles of people with decades of experience and some of the most skilled fighters on the planet.

Rwby characters in the current series are able to fight for nearly two days straight with minimal rest, and due to being a Maiden, Winter has well beyond this as her stamina is fueled by her magic, allowing her to keep fighting even after her aura is broken which is the equivalent of a stamina break in rwby. Penny is even further beyond this, having a borderline limitless stamina due to being a robot who has never shown to be tired even after grueling and extensive fights and never shown the need to recharge or rest.
 
Bypass in that a lot of Winter's ranged attacks dont use projectiles and thus wouldnt be able to be blocked by conventional means. She can literally point in their general directions and lock them in AoE gravity glyphs to prevent them from moving or have glyphs appear on them that would freeze them from the inside out.
Naruto and Sakura both resist Ice Manipulation so that isn't helping and Naruto can just break out of the Glyphs by using either Boil Release to Amp himself to an absurd level or use the Substitution Jutsu to get out which is borderline teleportation with Sakura also having the Substitution Jutsu.
Analytical prediction isnt going to be of much help here, penny and winter in this key both scale above Neo who is skilled enough to bypass the senses of a character who has passive precognition and instinctive reactions that are good enough to let them fight while blind. (She did this after getting serious as she was about to kill the old lady with this)
I don't remember any Character in RWBY having Precog and even if they did it's not as good as anything in Naruto with Naruto being able to literally tell your every move without even being able to see you. He can literally dance around them with his eyes closed.
Rasenshuriken and Frog Kata wouldnt work due to aura and forcefields protecting penny and winter.
No, but they hit harder than Naruto does without using them so they're going to hurt a lot and then Dura Neg neg them when their Aura is down.
This is stats equalized is it not? Kurama would also have its stats equalized meaning it wouldnt be able to restrain them.
No, Kurama would not have his Stats nerfed because he acts as a Transformation for Naruto that makes him stronger.
Funny thing about that sharing an users thing, theres literally a person in rwby who can do the exact same thing and she is considered low-tier in skill despite having copied dozens of fighting styles including the fighting styles of people with decades of experience and some of the most skilled fighters on the planet.
That's cool and all but the Sharingan copies literally everything that isn't Biologically or Spiritually Specific to the person it's copying and it gets enhanced with each evolution it goes through with it also granting Precognition that can see it's opponent's moves several seconds in advanced and yet Naruto and Sakura can land hits on these people with little to no issue so Velvet, Winter and Penny aren't special in anyway.
Rwby characters in the current series are able to fight for nearly two days straight with minimal rest, and due to being a Maiden, Winter has well beyond this as her stamina is fueled by her magic, allowing her to keep fighting even after her aura is broken which is the equivalent of a stamina break in rwby. Penny is even further beyond this, having a borderline limitless stamina due to being a robot who has never shown to be tired even after grueling and extensive fights and never shown the need to recharge or rest.
While that is useful, Winter's Stamina can't recharge Mid-Battle like Naruto's can and he can recharge and Amp Sakura as well so the only he's not beating in a battle of attrition is Penny who has limitless Stamina.

Honestly none of this even stops Naruto from just saying **** it and nuking the Battlefield Repeatedly with his Rapid Fire Bijū-Damas that he can literally fire like a Machine Gun with an absurd amount of AoE, especially of he gets time to charge one of them up while his Clones in Kurama Avatars of their own are also rapid fire spamming Bijū-Damas, if he thinks it's gonna help without hurting any innocent Bystanders. None of this even goes into the fact that Kurama's Chakra literally works just like Aura does when he has it turned on so they also have Forcefields that can also attack on their own instinctively as shown back in Part 1 of Naruto with KN1 Naruto vs Sasuke.
 
"Naruto and Sakura both resist Ice Manipulation so that isn't helping and Naruto can just break out of the Glyphs by using either Boil Release to Amp himself to an absurd level or use the Substitution Jutsu to get out which is borderline teleportation with Sakura also having the Substitution Jutsu."

To what degree do they resist ice manip? Because winter's ice glyph is superior to Weiss' which can instantly inside and out freeze a grimm that is specifically evolved to be unaffected by living in the planet's north pole. And breaking out wouldnt really work as theres nothing to break out of, the ice freezes from the inside and the glyph isnt restraining them. Teleporting wouldnt work either as the glyphs are able to teleport as well.

"I don't remember any Character in RWBY having Precog and even if they did it's not as good as anything in Naruto with Naruto being able to literally tell your every move without even being able to see you. He can literally dance around them with his eyes closed."

Maria, and that's literally what she is able to do, tell there are rwby characters who can do what you just described without precog, like Adam (who fought blake with a blindfold on) and Fox (who is blind and his semblance is making a group chat in others heads).

"No, but they hit harder than Naruto does without using them so they're going to hurt a lot and then Dura Neg neg them when their Aura is down."

They would still have magic-based forcefields to protect them if they get to that point.

"No, Kurama would not have his Stats nerfed because he acts as a Transformation for Naruto that makes him stronger."

Er...that seems rather unfair, especially since theres no listed level to which the participants of this tourney are nerfed. I feel like that should be brought up in the tourney thread itself.

"That's cool and all but the Sharingan copies literally everything that isn't Biologically or Spiritually Specific to the person it's copying and it gets enhanced with each evolution it goes through with it also granting Precognition that can see it's opponent's moves several seconds in advanced and yet Naruto and Sakura can land hits on these people with little to no issue so Velvet, Winter and Penny aren't special in anyway."

What you just listed is exactly how Velvet's copying works, and winter and penny are so far above her skill-wise it's not even funny.
 
"Naruto and Sakura both resist Ice Manipulation so that isn't helping and Naruto can just break out of the Glyphs by using either Boil Release to Amp himself to an absurd level or use the Substitution Jutsu to get out which is borderline teleportation with Sakura also having the Substitution Jutsu."

To what degree do they resist ice manip? Because winter's ice glyph is superior to Weiss' which can instantly inside and out freeze a grimm that is specifically evolved to be unaffected by living in the planet's north pole. And breaking out wouldnt really work as theres nothing to break out of, the ice freezes from the inside and the glyph isnt restraining them. Teleporting wouldnt work either as the glyphs are able to teleport as well.
They can resist being frozen by Ice but it's kind of Vague and the Glyphs Teleporting is different since she has to make a new one appear, it doesn't travel with them. I've seen the show, I know how they work.
"I don't remember any Character in RWBY having Precog and even if they did it's not as good as anything in Naruto with Naruto being able to literally tell your every move without even being able to see you. He can literally dance around them with his eyes closed."

Maria, and that's literally what she is able to do, tell there are rwby characters who can do what you just described without precog, like Adam (who fought blake with a blindfold on) and Fox (who is blind and his semblance is making a group chat in others heads).
Ah, I see. That's fair but Naruto can do it without any of his other senses since his is like a 6th and 7th Sense on top of his others.
"No, but they hit harder than Naruto does without using them so they're going to hurt a lot and then Dura Neg neg them when their Aura is down."

They would still have magic-based forcefields to protect them if they get to that point.
Which is why he would break out the more powerful shit like Jutsu and Amps rather than just swap hands.
"No, Kurama would not have his Stats nerfed because he acts as a Transformation for Naruto that makes him stronger."

Er...that seems rather unfair, especially since theres no listed level to which the participants of this tourney are nerfed. I feel like that should be brought up in the tourney thread itself.
The Creator didn't limit amps so they're fair game and Naruto can thousands of clones, each of which can have their own Kurama Avatar. Have fun with that.
"That's cool and all but the Sharingan copies literally everything that isn't Biologically or Spiritually Specific to the person it's copying and it gets enhanced with each evolution it goes through with it also granting Precognition that can see it's opponent's moves several seconds in advanced and yet Naruto and Sakura can land hits on these people with little to no issue so Velvet, Winter and Penny aren't special in anyway."

What you just listed is exactly how Velvet's copying works, and winter and penny are so far above her skill-wise it's not even funny.
No, Velvet's is shit compared to the Sharingan, I will fight you on this. The Sharingan's Precog just gets better as it evolves and Naruto can out box it considering he won that fight against Sasuke. Sakura can almost do the same thing but Naruto is better at it. Btw, you haven't still haven't brought up anything that stops Naruto from just nuking them with Machine Gun Bijū-Dama Spam and Rasenshuriken Spam.
 
I won't be allowing transformation buffs simply because I don't want this becoming Person A transforms and GG as a result
Alright well he's still got other buffs like Boil Release and absorbing more Nature Energy which accomplish basically the same thing without being an actual Transformation.
 
"They can resist being frozen by Ice but it's kind of Vague and the Glyphs Teleporting is different since she has to make a new one appear, it doesn't travel with them. I've seen the show, I know how they work."

Fair enough on the teleporting thing but for the freezing thing that likely wouldnt be enough to support naruto and sakura resisting being frozen by winter's ice.

"Ah, I see. That's fair but Naruto can do it without any of his other senses since his is like a 6th and 7th Sense on top of his others."

It's the same for maria, adam, and fox, in Maria's case it's a passive semblance that gives her a 6th sense and in adam and fox's cases it's a 6th sense as an extension of their aura

"Btw, you haven't still haven't brought up anything that stops Naruto from just nuking them with Machine Gun Bijū-Dama Spam and Rasenshuriken Spam."

Attack reflection, flying away to avoid it, etc.
 
"They can resist being frozen by Ice but it's kind of Vague and the Glyphs Teleporting is different since she has to make a new one appear, it doesn't travel with them. I've seen the show, I know how they work."

Fair enough on the teleporting thing but for the freezing thing that likely wouldnt be enough to support naruto and sakura resisting being frozen by winter's ice.
Does she open with that? If so they can probably Substitution Jutsu out of it. It's gotten these characters out of some stupid shit before.
"Ah, I see. That's fair but Naruto can do it without any of his other senses since his is like a 6th and 7th Sense on top of his others."

It's the same for maria, adam, and fox, in Maria's case it's a passive semblance that gives her a 6th sense and in adam and fox's cases it's a 6th sense as an extension of their aura
I see, still Naruto has one extra sense in the form of being able to sense emotions themselves.
"Btw, you haven't still haven't brought up anything that stops Naruto from just nuking them with Machine Gun Bijū-Dama Spam and Rasenshuriken Spam."

Attack reflection, flying away to avoid it, etc.
I don't think Attack Reflection would be very effective here since Naruto can grab his attacks and sling them back after they've missed or been sent back at him as shown against the 3rd Raikage and there's just a ridiculous number of attacks to reflect, he can fly too and still spam non-stop, etc doesn't tell me anything.
 
"Does she open with that? If so they can probably Substitution Jutsu out of it. It's gotten these characters out of some stupid shit before."

Ice is her main method of mid to long range combat so she is very likely to lead with it yes.

"I see, still Naruto has one extra sense in the form of being able to sense emotions themselves."

That helps him predict attacks? Because that also exists in rwby as well, Ren literally evolved the ability to see and sense people's emotional states in the Atlas arc.

"I don't think Attack Reflection would be very effective here since Naruto can grab his attacks and sling them back after they've missed or been sent back at him as shown against the 3rd Raikage and there's just a ridiculous number of attacks to reflect, he can fly too and still spam non-stop, etc doesn't tell me anything."

So it would turn into a dead man's volley of sorts. Also cant they be intercepted? Because both winter and penny have and liberally use ranged attacks of their own.
 
"Does she open with that? If so they can probably Substitution Jutsu out of it. It's gotten these characters out of some stupid shit before."

Ice is her main method of mid to long range combat so she is very likely to lead with it yes.
I meant freezing human beings from the inside out, I know she spams ice.
"I see, still Naruto has one extra sense in the form of being able to sense emotions themselves."

That helps him predict attacks? Because that also exists in rwby as well, Ren literally evolved the ability to see and sense people's emotional states in the Atlas arc.
Yes it boosts his Analytical Prediction into Borderline Precog. It says on his Profile that he can Predict what the enemy does before they even do it due to sensing their emotions.
"I don't think Attack Reflection would be very effective here since Naruto can grab his attacks and sling them back after they've missed or been sent back at him as shown against the 3rd Raikage and there's just a ridiculous number of attacks to reflect, he can fly too and still spam non-stop, etc doesn't tell me anything."

So it would turn into a dead man's volley of sorts. Also cant they be intercepted? Because both winter and penny have and liberally use ranged attacks of their own.
They can be shot out of the air, yeah, but they're significantly stronger than Naruto himself is so they'd have to be pumping out attacks of the same potency to shoot them out of the air. That's not even mentioning the fact that if they shoot any elements into them Naruto might find a way to incorporate it into his strategy since it's a common tactic in the Naruto Verse to use your Opponents' Elemental Jutsu to Amp your own, for example if they shot a wind based ability into Naruto's Lava Style Rasenshuriken they'd just make it stronger since part of Lava Style is Fire Style and Wind makes Fire Style Jutsu more powerful.
 
"I meant freezing human beings from the inside out, I know she spams ice."

Ah okay, she doesnt normally lead with it but when she sees that encasement isnt working she would be inclined to use it.

"Yes it boosts his Analytical Prediction into Borderline Precog. It says on his Profile that he can Predict what the enemy does before they even do it due to sensing their emotions."

Huh, funky, though theres a possibility that would have a reduced effectiveness seeing as Winter is absurdly good at suppressing her emotions and Penny is a robot who doesnt exactly have proper emotions.

"They can be shot out of the air, yeah, but they're significantly stronger than Naruto himself is so they'd have to be pumping out attacks of the same potency to shoot them out of the air. That's not even mentioning the fact that if they shoot any elements into them Naruto might find a way to incorporate it into his strategy since it's a common tactic in the Naruto Verse to use your Opponents' Elemental Jutsu to Amp your own, for example if they shot a wind based ability into Naruto's Lava Style Rasenshuriken they'd just make it stronger since part of Lava Style is Fire Style and Wind makes Fire Style Jutsu more powerful."

Wouldnt that be also be equalized...? If not then I gotta ask why a character with a bunch of attacks far stronger than himself was even allowed in the tourney? It feels like this would fall under the same category as transformations, especially if he can just spam them like crazy and just oneshot everyone else in the tourney with them.
 
"I meant freezing human beings from the inside out, I know she spams ice."

Ah okay, she doesnt normally lead with it but when she sees that encasement isnt working she would be inclined to use it.
Ah, I see. If she doesn't open with it then she might never get the chance to do it before Naruto figures out how her powers work since her abilities are super straight forward and things he's fought before.
"Yes it boosts his Analytical Prediction into Borderline Precog. It says on his Profile that he can Predict what the enemy does before they even do it due to sensing their emotions."

Huh, funky, though theres a possibility that would have a reduced effectiveness seeing as Winter is absurdly good at suppressing her emotions and Penny is a robot who doesnt exactly have proper emotions.
I mean just Winter having emotions at all means he's reading her like a book. Penny might be different because we haven't had any examples of him fighting a full on robot in the Canon Series yet.
"They can be shot out of the air, yeah, but they're significantly stronger than Naruto himself is so they'd have to be pumping out attacks of the same potency to shoot them out of the air. That's not even mentioning the fact that if they shoot any elements into them Naruto might find a way to incorporate it into his strategy since it's a common tactic in the Naruto Verse to use your Opponents' Elemental Jutsu to Amp your own, for example if they shot a wind based ability into Naruto's Lava Style Rasenshuriken they'd just make it stronger since part of Lava Style is Fire Style and Wind makes Fire Style Jutsu more powerful."

Wouldnt that be also be equalized...? If not then I gotta ask why a character with a bunch of attacks far stronger than himself was even allowed in the tourney? It feels like this would fall under the same category as transformations, especially if he can just spam them like crazy and just oneshot everyone else in the tourney with them.
Why would his attacks he breaks out when his normal punches don't do the job be weakened down to the strength of his punches? That seems incredibly unfair to literally everyone that has Special Techniques. It be like having Vegeta in this tournament and making his Final Flash be just as strong as his punches it's very clearly not supposed to be because he charges up to fire it. Like what's the point at that point?
 
Wouldnt that be also be equalized...? If not then I gotta ask why a character with a bunch of attacks far stronger than himself was even allowed in the tourney? It feels like this would fall under the same category as transformations, especially if he can just spam them like crazy and just oneshot everyone else in the tourney with them.
should be, I may put out a restriction on any sort of power climb in full force
 
OK, well that's annoying as **** but he still has Techniques specifically for Amping his Physicals and if those get nerfed too then I'm pulling out of the tournament because it feels like you're nerfing Shounen Style Characters on purpose.
 
I agree, but stat amps and reduction still apply tho, right?
they are part of the hax, such as a passive ability, or the result of a technique dealt, then yes, so RPL will still work as it's a hack, but having a technique that casually is hundreds of times stronger than AP baseline, kinda defeats the purpose, at least with RPL it takes time
 
something like me using god goku shouldn't give a thousand fold something multiplier that just blows everything away
 
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