Dragon ball Cosmology/Scaling

[LeSupremeKing1]

I want to discuss goku's scaling because it seems really weird to me for a number of reasons. One, the universe is infinite in size, stated multiple times within the daizenshuu.[]. Secondly it would had to have been happening infinitely fast if it were affecting an infinite sized universe (So possibly infinite speed?) And lastly contained within the universe 7 macrocosm are bodies that are comparable to the mortal universe in size, such as the kaioshin realm and heaven [] So I believe this feat that beerus and goku accomplished would get them to 2-c, and then with multipliers, training boosts, and everything else would get them to 2-b.
Furthermore, people like to debunk it using the bulma statement which i find wrong for a number of reasons.
For one Jaco contradicts this statement and explains that a center is impossible to find as stated here
Next about the edge thing, which holds less credibility since we already know the other half of the statement was wrong, doesn't work for a number of reasons. 1. How does bulma know shes on the edge? Is she able to see the the universe or even outside of her own planet? If so how far? I believe this statement only means as far as bulma can see, earth is the end of the universe, which means literally nothing unless this is an absolute fact. Secondly even if earth actually WAS at the edge, it doesn't even contradict it being infinite. For example there can simply be infinite space between the galaxies, as demonstrated in this model
Or the universe could be similar to a mathematical ray, (a 3 dimensional version of course) with earth as its starting point, and then the universe existing infinitely in one direction as outlined in this second model
Either way this statement doesn't even come close to debunking the universe being infinite in size, especially when the statements come from the daizenshuu which toriyama praise to the point he approves of their credibility and downplays his own.
I am of course willing to discuss this in vc in discord if you have any contentions to what i am saying, because i know threads like these take forever to get a reply from, and even longer to reach a consensus on.
LeSupremeKing#1481

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This has been discussed so many times I'm just going to need to point out, but I'm kind of exhausted with the topic as are other staff members such as AKM Sama. But the World of Void being Infinite is not literally. It just has "It has no time or space but filled with void and eternity." Meaning it has lifespan that's infinite and/or it will always be filled with nothingness. Not that it has an infinite amount of 3 dimensional space. And the Universe 7 being Infinite is kind of contradicted that there are 11 more universes just as big confined in these bubbles that are not quite infinite in size.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That's crazy, 'cause a later Daizenshuu entry goes states that the Universe is "infinitely expansive", and that Toriyama based it on the real world universe.
You wanna argue with astronomers?

 

[Orange]

Isn't the universe [Living realm]surrounded by the same dimensions that seperate The HTC and the living realm, and it was stated to be based on our real world with sci fi elements like star wars , plus all the endlessly expensive, infinitely expanding, immeasurable nebulas,galaxies existing infinitely...
Ir maybe I'm just too dumb

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

There’s already a thread about this? It was made by one of the staff.

 

[Saiyan40009]

I think this is so that the universe has infinite size if the guy is presenting good arguments

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Infinitely expanding" only means the size of the universe grows and approaches infinite as opposed to it literally being infinite.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

"Infinitely expanding" only means the size of the universe grows and approaches infinite as opposed to it literally being infinite.

The scan says Infinitely Expansive, not infinitely expanding. Those are separate things.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

This has been discussed so many times I'm just going to need to point out, but I'm kind of exhausted with the topic as are other staff members such as AKM Sama. But the World of Void being Infinite is not literally. It just has "It has no time or space but filled with void and eternity." Meaning it has lifespan that's infinite and/or it will always be filled with nothingness. Not that it has an infinite amount of 3 dimensional space. And the Universe 7 being Infinite is kind of contradicted that there are 11 more universes just as big confined in these bubbles that are not quite infinite in size.

I didn't utilise the world of the void scaling at all. Secondly those "bubbles" were stated to simply be a visual representation of the universe, not how they actually look like.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

"Infinitely expanding" only means the size of the universe grows and approaches infinite as opposed to it literally being infinite.

It didn't say infinitely expanding, it says EXPANSIVE. Which oxford defines as covering a wide area in terms of space or scope; extensive or wide-ranging. So assuming they are the same or similar is completely wrong.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

That's crazy, 'cause a later Daizenshuu entry goes states that the Universe is "infinitely expansive", and that Toriyama based it on the real world universe.
You wanna argue with astronomers?

It says the mortal universe only resembles our universe, presumably meaning the bodies that exist within it, such as the appearance of earth, galaxies, nebulae, etc. Which is consistent with the fact that the other world and kaioshin realm, from what we see within the numerous models of the universe do not have things such as galaxies, regular sized planets, or nebulae. Because asserting it shares all the qualities as our real word universe and assuming your interpretation is correct would be heavily contradicted within the story.

 

[MidnightDawn1]

The Dragon Ball Universe (Or any Universe ftm) can be infinite and still have an edge.

But I don't believe it's infinite tbh.

 

[Orange]

"Infinitely expanding" only means the size of the universe grows and approaches infinite as opposed to it literally being infinite.

But it's expansive not expanding.
Also galaxies exist infinitely In this infinitely and endlessly expansive universe

 

[RisingIons]

Yeah that’s a weird statement. How does something approach infinity it either is infinite or it isn’t.

I have mixed views, but the cosmology in the multiverse is more than these spheres. For one, is there proof that the universes in actual space are just floating spheres, or are those just objects used for illustration purposes?

Two, we know there is space outside of the universes. For one, the U6 tournament that was held on the nameless planet took place in the space between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Also Zeno’s palace also exists outside of the twelve universes somewhere in space, and it would take Whis a 4 day round trip to go there from universe 7. The world of void also exists outside of the twelve universes, but only Grand Priest can teleport himself and others there from what we’ve seen.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Yeah that’s a weird statement. How does something approach infinity it either is infinite or it isn’t.

I have mixed views, but the cosmology in the multiverse is more than these spheres. For one, is there proof that the universes in actual space are just floating spheres, or are those just objects used for illustration purposes?

Two, we know there is space outside of the universes. For one, the U6 tournament that was held on the nameless planet took place in the space between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Also Zeno’s palace also exists outside of the twelve universes somewhere in space, and it would take Whis a 4 day round trip to go there from universe 7. The world of void also exists outside of the twelve universes, but only Grand Priest can teleport himself and others there from what we’ve seen.

It don't believe it says its approaching infinity, it simply says its endless, infinitely expansive, infinite, etc. Even if it did, it can still be infinite and approaching infinity, it can be approaching lets say a higher infinity, because there are obviously higher sets of infinity. Secondly, there can still be space that exists outside of the universe, it would just be simply a separate space time continuum, so it wouldn't contradict the existence of the other universes. Lastly you can just dismiss the whis thing as plot induced stupidity. I might be misinterpreting what you are arguing for, but i believe you are trying to say if the universe is infinite, things cannot exist outside of it? Which is not the case at all.

 

[ArmBill]

I concur with this symposium

 

[Nierre]

huh... interesting

 

[Tarang123]

Yeah that’s a weird statement. How does something approach infinity it either is infinite or it isn’t.

I have mixed views, but the cosmology in the multiverse is more than these spheres. For one, is there proof that the universes in actual space are just floating spheres, or are those just objects used for illustration purposes?

Two, we know there is space outside of the universes. For one, the U6 tournament that was held on the nameless planet took place in the space between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Also Zeno’s palace also exists outside of the twelve universes somewhere in space, and it would take Whis a 4 day round trip to go there from universe 7. The world of void also exists outside of the twelve universes, but only Grand Priest can teleport himself and others there from what we’ve seen.

Well, in mathematics, you often hear things like "when x approaches infinity...", this usually just means that it's going on forever.

I believe that Toriyama made a statement about how it was merely visual representation so that people could visualize what they would look like in some kind of hypothetical scenario.

Just pointing it out, but you can have infinite 3D space between two 4D constructs, so them having "boundaries" doesn't really go against the notion of an infinite universe.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Following.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So possibly infinite speed?

I feel like I should point out the ToP alone debunks them having infinite speed

 

[Tarang123]

I feel like I should point out the ToP alone debunks them having infinite speed

Not that I disagree, but why exactly?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So I believe this feat that beerus and goku accomplished would get them to 2-c, and then with multipliers, training boosts, and everything else would get them to 2-b.

In tier 2, you can't use multipliers like that

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Not that I disagree, but why exactly?

Because the ToP has a timeframe. If these characters had infinite speed, they wouldn't need to be worrying about it, as infinite speed makes time frozen to you, literally.

 

[Tarang123]

Because the ToP has a timeframe. If these characters had infinite speed, they wouldn't need to be worrying about it, as infinite speed makes time frozen to you, literally.

Time frame is a bit of a weird subject, but infinite speed is being able to cross an infinite amount of distance over finite time. I'm not sure if having a time limit for the tournament properly debunks anything.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

In tier 2, you can't use multipliers like that

I disagree with their idea of multipliers not meaning anything when dealing with characters 2-c and above, I find their reasoning behind it completely ridiculous.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Time frame is a bit of a weird subject, but infinite speed is being able to cross an infinite amount of distance over finite time. I'm not sure if having a time limit for the tournament properly debunks anything.

The tournament of power of 48 minutes, if everything was frozen to them, why would they need the time limit to begin with?

I disagree with their idea of multipliers not meaning anything when dealing with characters 2-c and above, I find their reasoning behind it completely ridiculous.

Reasoning?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Because the ToP has a timeframe. If these characters had infinite speed, they wouldn't need to be worrying about it, as infinite speed makes time frozen to you, literally.

That would just mean the TOP would be an outlier or PIS, it wouldn't necessarily debunk them.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The narrative doesn't even actively place them at Infinite speed. Plus Universe 7 isn't infinite in size to begin with like what DarkDragon stated above.

This has been discussed so many times I'm just going to need to point out, but I'm kind of exhausted with the topic as are other staff members such as AKM Sama. But the World of Void being Infinite is not literally. It just has "It has no time or space but filled with void and eternity." Meaning it has lifespan that's infinite and/or it will always be filled with nothingness. Not that it has an infinite amount of 3 dimensional space. And the Universe 7 being Infinite is kind of contradicted that there are 11 more universes just as big confined in these bubbles that are not quite infinite in size.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

The tournament of power of 48 minutes, if everything was frozen to them, why would they need the time limit to begin with?


Reasoning?

I just don't think the literal distance between two separate space time continuum matters in this category, it doesn't take a lot of thinking to realize that 2x3=6, therefore a character able to destroy lets say 2 low 2-c constructs amped with a 3x multiplier would be able to destroy 6 low 2-c constructs. I believe the numerical gap between uni+ and any higher level in tier 2 to be easily quantifiable utilizing mathematics.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

The narrative doesn't even actively place them at Infinite speed. Plus Universe 7 isn't infinite in size to begin with like what DarkDragon stated above.

Why do you think its finite in size despite all my explanations and statements proving otherwise?
Also even if they don't actively place goku at infinite speed, there are numerous statements and feats that place him there, so regardless i feel like they should still be given that level of speed.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Emirp there have literally already been several answers showing why it has infinite size

 

[Orange]

The narrative doesn't even actively place them at Infinite speed. Plus Universe 7 isn't infinite in size to begin with like what DarkDragon stated above.

If the universes are infinite , then the bubbles are just simply bigger, I don't see any problem?

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah we need a cosmology page for Dragon Ball, which DDM already agreed to I guess.

But we'll need volunteers.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yeah we need a cosmology page for Dragon Ball, which DDM already agreed to I guess.

But we'll need volunteers.

There’s already a thread about this? It was made by one of the staff.

!!!

 

[KLOL506]

!!!

That's exactly what I was referring to fam

 

[Qawsedf234]

If there's a staff thread about this just move the discussion their since it's about a cosmology blog. When that is finished someone can unlock this thread about any possible changes.