Doomguy Speed Downgrade: Plasma Speed

[Assaltwaffle]

Something was recently brought to my attention. It appears that Doomguy is able to move at MHS+ to Sub-Rel speed because he can dodge plasma. Why? It seems like too many people just blindly agreed on the upgrade in this thread. While convincing and well-sourced, I believe it to be incorrect. We are using the speed of CMEs to rate this speed, but is there a reason to? It is the Sun expelling massive bursts of plasma, not the plasma magically moving on its own.

Plasma is a state of matter. It has no inherent property causing it to ramp up to MHS+ and beyond. A bullet doesn't have Supersonic speed because the projectile "is a solid." A wave doesn't move at several m/s because it "is a liquid." Why would plasma move at such high speeds because "it is plasma?"

Unless the gun that fires plasma projectiles was able to move it at the same speed that the Sun launches its CMEs, there is no reason to instantly assume the plasma fired out of the Plasma Gun moves at such high speeds.

Is there a reason I am wrong? Thoughts and opinions?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I left another note on the blog for the calc. But I'll repeat it. Doom's plasma projectiles are based on the real world plasma rifle. And various articles did say that those very same plasma rifles do fire projectiles faster than solar winds; which are High Hypersonic and later, another article did say they travel faster than CME's. There's also this article which does consistently say those very same plasma projectiles are Sub Reletivistic. So in other words, it is consistant.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The article you linked managed to get 4 micrograms up to 140 km/s. So 4 billionths of a kilogram. While it seems like plasma does have very efficient energy-to-speed, it depends exclusively on the power of the machinery launching to plasma as to what the plasma can achieve.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

(This will probably be ninja'd)

Well, for starters, the original revisions of the character's (and his enemies') speed was due to a thread which I actually discovered retroactively, so I wasn't the first person to discover the correlation between DOOM's plasma weapons and real-life plasma. I only proposed a revision for the speeds after realizing how fast CMEs are capable of travelling.

As far as the reference of CMEs goes, this was the original article someone else found a while back, which outlined the detail that a particular type of plasma wave travels faster than said CMEs. In the article, it explains that these waves move this fast due either electromagnetic charge or instabilities within the plasma itself. The plasma rifle is directly stated to fire electromagnetically-charged plasma projectiles, and the BFG is directly stated to fire unstable plasma.

There is another article which adds credibility to this, however. Medeus found this source, which is where the information on the plasma's density comes from. It apparently details the results of real-life experiments in plasma projectile acceleration, and not too far into it, there's a line which states that these projectiles are capable of reaching sub-relativistic speeds.

That's where we're at right now.

EDIT: I was right. Got ninja'd hard.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

While I addressed the 2nd article, but the first is... interesting. This would seem to suggest that the plasma itself actually can propel itself forward at extremely high speeds because of its inherent properties... Very strange to say the least. If this is the case, I am not sure why all plasma doesn't move this quickly. Stars are not internally moving at such breakneck speeds, despite being made of exclusively plasma.

Is there another source that supports the first article? Claiming that a state of matter inherently moves at any speed (nevermind such high speeds) is a pretty big one. Certainly something so important would be documented elsewhere.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, we aren't saying all plasma moves at said speed, just the actual real life plasma projectiles fired from the real life plasma rifle. And of course, we should probably have a calc group discussion regarding plasma projectiles; as not all Fictional plasma weapons demonstrate the same behavior.

Like Doom does share plenty of connection to real world plasma, but Covenant Weapons used in Halo for example are only Subsonic. Still, I still think we should keep the speed ratings for the Doom cast, but more input could be appreciated.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I agree that more input is needed. But "real life plasma projectiles" so far are either...

1. So small that a relatively small amount of energy can speed them up

2. Fired from an extremely powerful source (e.g. The Sun)

3. Move entirely on their own due to instability

And three still seems odd considering that would make me believe that, as an inherent property of that state of matter, plasma would instantly disperse at MHS+ speeds, rather than cooling back down to gas as it often does.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

After some digging, I managed to locate this article, and it seems to be talking of the same exact discovery as the one mentioned in the very first that was found, even mentioning the same researcher by name. It also appears to confirm that the waves in particular are electromagnetically charged, though admittedly I've only skimmed through it so far and haven't read the entirety of it yet.

I'll be honest in saying that I'm no expert in all of this. I don't much think that anyone who's been working on the revisions for DOOM would claim this as their field of expertise. We've mostly just been going by the evidence presented to us in what we find, which has been strange, but was promising at the time.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

1. That's probably because real world plasma is in the early stages; in the future, we may be able to have Sub-Relativistic speed with larger quantities of plasma. AKA Doom plasma.

2. Plasma Rifles are powered by solar energy, but I suppose that alone isn't quite proof.

3. Yeah, BFG does mention instability, which was something a justification for Sub-Relativistic speed.

There's also, this article mentioning that plasma is 1 Gigajoule per cm^2 for the opening hole on the rifle. It's super tiny IRL I know, but BFG weaponizes it to super massive sizes.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Honestly these articles are very interesting reads. Such an odd property. To think that any form of matter would just shoot out randomly at MHS+ speeds because it become electromagnetically charged is... interesting... to say the least.

This is some of the most experimental science I have dealt with so far when it comes to feats. Electricity was easy to deal with in comparison.

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't think that "real life" plasma rifles refer to the typical guns of plasma from fiction, with what I have read, they articles are more refering to particles and wavelength and such. But I'm not a Physic, I'm a Eng. Electronic (almost); perhaps, I should ask DT since he study physics (not sure if this field tho).

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ant

That is a good idea. If he is a physicist the states of matter should be something he knows well. If plasma does have such a property surely he would have studied it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, DonTalk might be the best person to ask; plasma projectiles, as I mentioned above, should probably be given a similar case with electricity, lightning, light, ect.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I'm up for having DT come look at this as well. His insight might be the kind of informed view we're looking for, and if there's anything wrong with how we've been going about this, it's good to know now so that it won't become a problem in the future.

Like I said, I'm no specialist in regards to any of it, so it'll be nice to see what an expert thinks of the situation we have here.

 

[SomebodyData]

has anyone asked him yet?

 

[Antoniofer]

has anyone asked him yet?

Already did it.

 

[ALRF]

Welp RIP me, too late.

Dunno if i could help with the thread since i agreed on it based upon what was shown the in OP.

Only thing i can suggest is maybe have the calc group here and discuss on it.

Sorry for not being able to help here

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's all good, but yeah, let's wait for DT and/or DarkAnine

 

[Schnee_One]

"It seems like too many people just blindly agreed on the upgrade"

Or they knew what they were talking about, in all seriousness, not bothering to gather more input on the subject before saying that people "Blindly" agreed is an easy way to make yourself look like a fool, no offense intended.

As for this itself I really don't have any more input to give on this that hasn't already been said, but I'd like to point out that in this case we really should seeif there's any regulations on what's real plasma and what's not, and try to spot any other verses that use plasma because at the moment the only series we know that use plasma that can apply to speed are the inFAMOUS series and the DOOM series.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Well, if this "plasma projectiles in relation to speed" thing of ours ends up being a misfire, then there won't be much point in finding other verses that contain stuff comparable to what has been shown in these articles.

But yeah, if things remain approved, we should definitely look into seeing what other series/franchises/etc. might contain stuff of this nature. Could result in some massive speed boosts for a few harder science fiction series.

Again though, that's IF these things remain approved for use.

 

[Schnee_One]

Of course I'm counting if it goes through.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The most obvious answer is '''case by case scenarios'''.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Gargoyle

Well people will oftentimes agree immediately with something if it looks well-sourced without asking the hard questions. I don't think it is foolish to suggest this, considering several members of the previous discussion haven't been able to clarify this.

I mean no insult to them, but I see easy agreement a bit more frequently than I'd like. OF course something like "a bullet is supersonic" can be nigh-instantly agreed on, but in the realm of experimental physics this shouldn't be so quickly confirmed or denied. We had a long and beneficial discussion over electricity, now it may be best to have one about plasma.

 

[Schnee_One]

And this excuses saying people are blind before bothering to gather any input because...?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I do agree that more questions could have been asked in regards to the nature of what was found. I don't really blame anyone, as enough evidence and statements can oftentimes be enough to sway a person who doesn't have full knowledge on what is being talked about. (And let's face it, 90% of us know jack shit about this field of science) Most people who aren't experienced in something aren't going to spend their time trying to source info on it. But that's why we're here now.

Considering the whole thing regarding electricity and speed that happened some time ago, it's probably safe to assume that this is a similar case of things not being as cut-and-dry as they seem at first blush. I doubt Assalt meant any disrespect, and I say that as someone who's defending this whole thing of ours. (to a point)

There's no need to make this into more than it is. Let's try to be civil here.

 

[Schnee_One]

Gathering input first is always a far better idea, but I agree nonetheless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, basically what MrKing said, but at the same time, I don't think "Blindly agreeing" was the correct term. I think it be better to say, that said people were "Most likely exhausted from other duties and rolled with it to save time". Which would be much more understandable.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

^That, or the volume of evidence was enough to convince them on its own, given that they themselves (probably) weren't too knowledgeable on all of this scientific information and whatnot. Either-or could be the case, honestly.

Regardless of what it was, there's not much to fault here. It was a situation of things moving too quickly without being analyzed with enough detail, which happens a lot and is rarely intentional whenever it does happen. Now that we've got a general audience of mods, calc members and regular verse experts looking at what we have, we should be able to assess this thing properly and reach a definitive conclusion by the time this thread ends. Hopefully.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Let me start with two things:

1. I only read the first few responses, up to antoniofers first response, so I might have missed something.

2. I am no physics student, I am a math student.

With that let's get on topic.

To state my thesis at the beginning: I think very special cases are extrapolated to be general cases here.


First this article. What is described there is special phenomenon of a moving plasma wave. In this case it refers to a motion plasma does while traveling through plasma.

In general I don't really see why one special wave (special enough that researches didn't knew that happens in 2012) relates to plasma weapons, but as plasma weapons don't even shoot their plasma through plasma, but through air, this is even less relevant.

I actually have a good comparision here: A tsunami wave moves in some cases around 475 miles per hour. I think adressing the speed of the plasma wave of a CME to the speed of a plasma gun would be like adressing the tsunami speed to a water gun.


Next this article. All in all it is very nice that they can get plasma that fast in the lab... but that really means nothing for the gun. It is not like that is a standard speed for plasma, just some speed we could make plasma move with.

Measuring the speed of a plasma gun with that makes as much sense to me as as measuring the speed of a particle beam through the speed we can accelerate particles to in the LHC.


When it comes to the question if there is a standard speed for plasma let's look at some example plasma. For example... a candle flame. Yep, flames are plasma , for those that didn't know. (Does that mean flame throwers are basically plasma guns? =O)

Flames are pretty obvisouly not very fast per default. So moving fast is really not a universal property of plasma or anything.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Welp, I believe that cleans out anything I could've said on the matter. Unless there's something else that hasn't been accounted for, I think that might be the final answer.

Also, this probably means we're going to have to downgrade the verse quite significantly as far as speed rankings go, as the entire cast scales to the Plasma Rifle's (alleged) projectile speed.

In any case, thanks for clearing things up. We should probably refer to this thread in the future if anything else like this crops up.

 

[Antoniofer]

I see, so the specific speed of certain type of plasma doesn't justify the speed of any other type of plasma, that something with what I can agree with. I also agree with the other point, altering the enviroment to makes something moves faster doesn't tell anything about the normal speed.

Iirc, electricity is plasma too, and its speed vary in several types of it (lightning, returning stroke, drift velocity, etc.)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

RIP Tier 7 Doomguy.

Anyway, I think they would still be Hypersonic due some old calc a while back of casually dodging machine gun fire from one of the books.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

RIP Tier 7 Doomguy.

RIP Doomguy's hype in general. Dude's probably about to get the biggest nerfs I've seen since Dante.

Tier 7, Sub-Relativistic Doom Slayer. Gonna miss it.

I'm all for it though. And I actually forgot about the DOOM novels. Are those canon? Because if so, we may be able to simply draw our pre-2016 feats from those instead. (Provided one of us can get our hands on them)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Doom Slayer would still be 8-A scaling from the Titan, who is that strong via sheer size and movement speed. But yeah, the speed downgrade sucks. Still might be for the better considering the consistencies.

And not sure about the novels being canon actually; I can't find a source to prove or disprove. But out pacing machine generated electricity is still Supersonic

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Should preferrably write a blog with the details of that, just so that we have something that can justify such a rating for him. And I don't much mind the downgrades at this point. Whatever's accurate is fine with me.

I'll look into the canonicity of the novels later tonight. I know of a couple forums that are ridiculously dedicated to following DOOM and compiling/talking about all of its facts, so if worst comes to worst, someone in one of those might have the answer.

 

[Schnee_One]

RIP Sub-Rel InFAMOUS

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm all for it though. And I actually forgot about the DOOM novels. Are those canon? Because if so, we may be able to simply draw our pre-2016 feats from those instead. (Provided one of us can get our hands on them)

IIRC, the novels are their own canon, but the first two are based off of DOOM and DOOM II, whereas the last two continue on their own independent story.

They could probably get their own tab or profiles, I would think. They're certainly fleshed out enough.

 

[Antoniofer]

Although, dodging machinegun bullets is ambiguos if you the distance is unknown, a calc would be needed unless it specified that is was at point-black; also, machine guns aren't Hypersonic, right now I don't remember the speed of a certain machine gun but I doubt that it surpass Mach 3

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No one said Machine guns where Hypersonic, but iirc, he casted multiple after images and was moving closer and closer to the target while dodging. The motivation would be that his actual combat speed would be much faster than the machine gun.

But I digress, but Supersonic would be the bare minimum for their speed via outpacing machine generated electricity; which is mach 1.6.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

IIRC, the novels are their own canon, but the first two are based off of DOOM and DOOM II, whereas the last two continue on their own independent story.
They could probably get their own tab or profiles, I would think. They're certainly fleshed out enough.

Huh. I might have to get on that at some point.

I would've suggested just making the Classic Doomguy key into a Geralt of Rivia kind of deal with both book and game feats, but I realize that's a different case than this one.