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Why would their flight speed scale to their combat speed? Just flying or using wings in a fight is not enough evidence to suggest a 1:1 ratio.
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DOOM - Maykr Flight/Combat Speed
- Thread starter Firestorm808
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- doom doom eternal khan maykr
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- 7,486
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- Thread starter
- #42
Don't we scale flight speed to their reactions speed because of their control and turning and stuff?
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- Thread starter
- #43
To my knowledge, we didn't have enough info to say that the other people in the scaling chain had Infinite Travel Speed + Reaction Speed to give a general Infinite rating.
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No,
You would need to prove that they're able to do complex actions while flying at those speeds in order to gain combat speed.
Using Superman as an example, this would be combat speed (since he's fighting someone while flying fast) but this wouldn't be (just flying from Vega to Earth)
- 7,486
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- Thread starter
- #45
In the Samur Maykr Boss battle, we see him blur across the battle field as he fights. Wouldn't that apply?
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You would need to prove that his speed there is the exact same as the speed used offscreen in the background lore. Which for the most part is either difficult or not really possible to prove.
Alternatively if you have something mentioning that the character is going "Full speed" or something akin to that it would scale.
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- Thread starter
- #47
Doesn't a fight to the death imply that he's going all out to win?
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The feat fits the rules for our travel speed. Now you must prove why it shouldn't just be travel speed. Just fighting someone wouldn't matter. The example that comes to mind is that we say that Smallville Superman has FTL combat speed and MFTL+ travel speed, but we scale Smallville Impulse to MFTL+ because he explicitly stated to be superior to Superman's stated top speed. As an alternative example we scale Dragon Ball characters flight speed to combat speed because its stated that flight < speed:
You would need to prove that the angel's speed in the boss fight is the same as its speed while flying through a void. Which as of now there isn't anything.
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- Thread starter
- #49
I see.
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How do you guys think we should proceed?
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How do you guys think we should proceed?
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Well I see no reason why they would suddenly slow down in a boss fight against DOOMGUY to begin with.
And once you go Infinite speed, your reactions and combat speed have to scale in tandem, because unlike with finite speed feats, all of your body has to cope with that sheer speed. Infinity divided by anything is still infinity. That's why we don't make that distinction once you go Infinite speed and higher unless explicitly stated.
And once you go Infinite speed, your reactions and combat speed have to scale in tandem, because unlike with finite speed feats, all of your body has to cope with that sheer speed. Infinity divided by anything is still infinity. That's why we don't make that distinction once you go Infinite speed and higher unless explicitly stated.
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What is the discussion now?
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- Thread starter
- #52
Qawsedf234 is voicing his concerns regarding the scaling we accepted so far.
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Well, I highly doubt a character's combat speed would be infinitely weaker than the natural flight speed. Can't divide infinite by a number to get a finite number.
- 1,170
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Yeah, by the very idea that you have infinite speed or can travel an infinite distance you’d have to logically be able to react to that speed otherwise they wouldn’t be able to scour the infinite universe in any meaningful way if their reaction time is not also infinite, even if you wanna argue that their reaction speed is somehow quantifiably slower than their travel speed… you can’t really divide an infinite number into less than infinite.
Dividing Reaction and Travel speed really only works if your speed is quantifiable, kinda falls apart once you breach infinite speed. I don’t even think there’s ever been a case where someone had infinite travel speed but has finite reaction time
Dividing Reaction and Travel speed really only works if your speed is quantifiable, kinda falls apart once you breach infinite speed. I don’t even think there’s ever been a case where someone had infinite travel speed but has finite reaction time
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I mean, what's the justification for them being infinite in the first place?
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But that wouldn't make them infinite. In fact they can just be vaguely MFTL+/have dimensional travel and accomplish everything listed as a source in the OP.
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Why wouldn't it make them infinite if the realm itself they cross is noted to be infinite in size?
Crossing infinite-sized realms within any timeframe grants Infinite Speed as long as the evidence for it is blatant and shown. How can MFTL+ even be remotely close to crossing an infinite-sized realm?
Also there is no Dimensional Travel involved, they just spread their wings and move.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
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Why would they be MFTL+? Are you saying MFTL+ is enough to cross an infinite distance?
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Because neither quote in the OP is about them crossing an infinite realm at once. Just going to wherever Father needed them, which wouldn't require Infinite speed.
It's only infinite if they crossed the entire realm or something akin to that. The quote provided
Isn't infinite in any capacity on its own. It's just saying they flew to stuff.
I mean, dunno how else to take this part
It would imply dimensional travel or Immeasurable speed. Since those are the only options to get to another dimension without a portal or something akin to one.
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But as per OP, doing the Father's bidding requires them to cover all that distance.
@Firestorm808 Would you be able to explain more?
Do we even give speed for penetrating dimensional barriers? Is that possible?
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Traveling infinite distances within a finite amount of time is infinite. And some more recent posts pointed out they actively have crossed infinite sized dimensions.
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That quote isn't included in the OP. Which is important since that would could be an indication for speed. At the moment the provided quotes don't require Infinite to accomplish.
You would need to prove they crossed an infinite distance first. There's no quotes of that in the OP.
If it's raw speed and not some weird cosmology thing it's Immeasurable since it requires moving of different spacial axis.
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Hmmmmmm...
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Was explained in the first few comments by Transcending.
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- Thread starter
- #66
According to the Codex, they "winged through creation."
Creation overall is a much larger structure than just one universe. I used 1 universe as the lowball.
From the fight with Samur, we see how the wings operate in 3-D space. They move from A to B physically, not using portals.
From there, we have the conservative feat of flying through 1 universe.
Creation overall is a much larger structure than just one universe. I used 1 universe as the lowball.
From the fight with Samur, we see how the wings operate in 3-D space. They move from A to B physically, not using portals.
From there, we have the conservative feat of flying through 1 universe.
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But that just mean they flew through creation when Father told them to. What it doesn't mean is that they flew to infinite distance. Flying through creation is just flying, not traveling infinite distances.
Which is MFTL+, not infinite.
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… it is if Creation/Universes are considered infinite in size both ways. One Universe in Doom is already considered infinite in size as mentioned before
Also the quote about winging through creation in that context clearly shows they are moving throughout existence, and even if moving through said creation was only a few universes (which nothing implied that) that would still be moving through infinitely sized universes which is still infinite speed.
As for further proof of just infinite universes, it comes from the official guide created by iD that outright states infinite universes
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No it's not. Change creation to space. The only way the feat would be considered infinite is if the person explicitly flew an infinite distance or traveled all of space.
Just flying through creation is MFTL+ with the current posted statements in the OP.
Which isn't infinite. You can move finite distances in an infinite space. You have to prove they moved an infinite amount of distance and so far there's been nothing provided for that.
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“Change creation to space”
… so change it into something that is less than the sum of its parts? What? Creation is this context includes dimensions beyond space-time and far larger than just space itself so why would you downgrade the feat to something just to argue it’s MFTL?
And how are you specifically getting MFTL+ feats from the OP when no amount of distance of time was stated for flying through creation? If the Universe is infinite baseline and they flew through one Universe, you can’t say it’s “MFTL+” because you have no reference for how far or fast they flew if it isn’t Infinite speed. You are contradicting your own argument randomly make up a MFTL+ downplay.
And yeah, moving throughout the infinite expands of creation while assisting the father with his work across higher dimensional realms that exist above an infinite multiverse with infinitely sized universes and the Seraphs could traverse all of that with pure speed is bare minimum Infinite. You’re probably right it’s actually Immeasurable anyway
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
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There's also this.
Also isn't moving through Low 1-C realms Immeasurable? Considering the FAQ says this-
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
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I still agree with infinite/immeasurable speed.
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Substitute the word creation for the word space. Flying through creation is irrelevant as a speed qualifier when it's not stated they moved through all of creation at once or moved an infinite distance at once.
I guess you're right. It's just downright not quantifiable as a speed rating.
And you're right. I was going off of the original OP rating of MFTL+. But it shouldn't even be that.
Only if they're crossing different universal axis. If it's all the same dimensional space then it's just some unknown finite number.
No. Immeasurable comes from either movement beyond linear time, movement across multiple different time axis or possessing multiple temporal dimensions. They would qualify for Immeasurable only if they can cross a universal or dimensional boundry through raw speed and there's no other hangups associated with it.
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You can't substitute creation for space in this instance, it doesn't work the same. Creation by itself encompasses all of existence including areas that exist beyond time and space, you literally cannot substitute them because they work on completely different dimensions of existence.
I have no idea why you're trying to simulate something that literally cannot coexist.
Then you straight up admit you're not even doing the research required to make the arguments itself and you have to constantly be told what is and what isn't going on. Why would you make a MFTL+ argument based on OP when there's are numerous other posts not even a page later that already goes against that, and why are you debating the size of the universe, when IN THIS THREAD there are like 5 posts showing why its Infinite. No offense, but maybe you should actually do your own research into this instead of constantly arguing points that you don't know, otherwise, why should we take your opinion on anything here seriously? It's like you just want to downplay for the sake of downplaying.
If they are physically flying across creation itself, which includes higher dimensional spaces like Urdak, then by definition they had to have been traveling between different universal axis. The Codex doesn't state they just move throughout Urdak itself, they move across creation which would include the Multiverse itself. Even if you wanna argue it took them billions of years, that's moving at bare minimum Infinite Speed.
Again, not only are the Seraphs stated to move through existence with their wings, not teleportation, across creation itself, which by the definition of creation in Doom Eternal is all of existence including higher dimensional places like Urdak. Not only have we seen beings like the Khan Makyr who are demonstrably stated to be of the highest power among the Makyrs, which would include the Seraphs, and also has wings they use in combat. But also, the wording of the Codex entry itself
and once winged through creation to do the Father's bidding.
Is very clearly saying that in one instance they use their wings to move across all of creation itself, like this wasn't them just moving throughout a small portion of the Universe for the sake of a task, in this one instance they moved themselves through the various dimensions of creation and the Multiverse itself. And again, even if they somehow only traveled across Urdak to the Multiverse, bare minimum, its Infinite speed.
But if you really wanna use the Codex, it directly states
"These were beings unlike any we had seen before, sword and shield held no weight against them, for the ethereal flesh of these luminous beings seemed unbound by mortality. Able to move through time and space, they held sway over all dominions of the known and unknown dimensions."
And reading through the Codex, it never states anything about the Makyrs only using teleportation to move through time, it mentions just them being able to move through time and space by themselves. And seeing how Seraphs are able to move across creation just with their wings, confirmed, you could argue that movement through time and space is something Makyrs can do if they wish under their own power. But we can argue that later.
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Okay, not sure where Immeasurable came from, but they traveled to an infinite number of places within a finite amount of time, which is clearly infinite.
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Immeasurable was just something brought up because of the line about moving through Space Time under their own power and moving through and from higher dimensional places in and out of creation, like Urdak. But that’s a debate for another time and not important right now.
Either way, moving through creation especially from higher dimensional places like Urdak through pure speed is bare minimum Infinite
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The substation is to make the point clear. Flying through creation means nothing on its own. Like how flying through space means nothing on its own. The text given doesn't imply infinite or Immeasurable speed, it just means they flew to places where Father told them to go. But without knowing distances involved that factor is just irrelevant.
Because from the start my entire argument has only been focused on the OP and up to this point nothing more has been provided.
Trying to clarify a point isn't downplaying. It's trying to clarify a point.
Do you have a scan of them doing so? If so then just use that for a justification rather than Creation, since that's clearer example of higher dimensional speed.
It does not say that. All is not used to that sentence. Moving through creation is not comparable to moving through all of creation. Which has been my point for awhile.
If they can move across time then it's Immeasurable speed.
Where is this stated? If this is the creation quote again then it just doesn't say that DDM.
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- #78
Creation is a 2-A structure. You can't say that they winged through creation if it wasn't a decent chuck.
Using the low ball of one universe is massively conservative.
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As a clarification by creation being vague I mean the aspect of them physically flying to other sections of dimensional space. If you have a quote where they physically fly to different dimensions within then that would be enough for Infinite/Immeasurable.
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It wasn't "Creating the multiverse" that was a speed feat. But didn't someone mention actively crossing the infinite number of universes via flying with their wings?
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