Doctor Fate vs Bill Cipher

[TheArsenal1212]

I know this has been done before but I really wanted to re-do this.


Story: Bill had won. The Pines were defeated, his weirdness was spreading across the world. Bill sat upon his throne and laughed as Stan and Ford were made to dance for eternity. Before long however, a large ankh appeared inside his fearamid. Intrigued and amused, Bill started to laugh.

Bill: "HAHAHAHAHAHA oh boy. Of course that poor excuse of a doctor showed up. I guess it would be a 'strange' wierdmaggedon without him"

Suddenly, Fate comes through the ankh portal in a severely irritated mood.

Fate: "Bill Cipher, your wierdmaggedon and entrance into this dimension is causing universal chaos. You are a threat which needs to be eliminated"

Bill: "Oh boy Fate you sure make me laugh, but what the heck lets have some fun"

Fate: "I will seal your fate Cipher"

So yeah. Fight takes place in Gravity Falls during Wierdmaggedon.

Kent+Inza Fate at Low 2-C

Speed is =

Doctor Fate (Classic): 0

Bill Cipher: 0

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Christian_Higdon]

Interesting.

 

[Imaginym]

Dr. Fate is very experienced. Going by the intro, he's entering from... maybe another world, & he knows of Bill & Bill knows of him. What are their opening moves?

In theory, DF could use Soul Manipulation to try & kill Bill, but can he get past Low-Godly? Alternatively, he could try using Morality Manipulation to pacify Bill & make him leave peacefully. Can he transmute Bill? Would him banishing for a BFR stick long enough for a win?

The biggest problem for DF is one thing Bill has he doesn't: Precognition. If it's passive, & if it tells him what this guy from another reality & timeline is going to do, Bill can know what Strange can & will do to him. With that knowledge, Bill could just Time Stop ASAP, & then win with his own transmutation or other murder methods. Could Fate could exit time stop via Time Travel? Would that work against someone with Causality Manipulation & Precognition? (Or would he need Retrocognition against an attacker in the past of his timeline?)

Doctor Fate has Clairvoyance, but I'd think he'd have to actively use it. His best chances seem to be:

A. Bill toys with him, which might be in-character.

B. Start off with Time Travel &/or Illusion Creation/Perception Manipulation that Bill somehow isn't aware of. If the illusion/perception can persist through stopped time so that Bill thinks he's killed Strange when he unstops time, Fate might be able to win via a surprise attack.

C. Use Attack Reflection or somehow have one of Bill's own attacks hit him. (Ex: Have Bill use an attack that homes, & use an illusion/perception manipulation so Bill doesn't realize his own attack isn't coming to him.)

D. Memory Manipulation to make Bill think they're not enemies, then sucker punch him.

Intangibility might also go some ways to helping DF avoid dying.


Overall, best case scenario for DF is where Bill isn't actively using his precognition, or, if it's passive, isn't paying attention to it/toying with DF, & possibly also where Bill doesn't use time stop immediately. He has win conditions, it's just not easy for him to get openings for them if Bill acts optimally. But in-character isn't always optimal for Bill, whereas Fate is very experienced with this sort of thing.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Bill transmutes more often than not. He straight up murders time baby but every other nuisance is transmutated as he loves to mess with people

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Bump

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

Seems like DF would need to trick Bill. (Or use Morality Manipulation to pacify him enough to win.) Show up, & then use Illusion Creation, Perception Manipulation or Memory Manipulation to make Bill think he's won, with something like Intangibility, Teleportation or Time Travel to avoid being killed by Transmutation....

Another option: Could he travel in time to the past of GF's universe to assault Bill, while leaving an illusion or likeness of himself to avoid being caught in time stop?

Power Absorption could also be helpful; If he could trick Bill into stopping & then unstopping time (Ex: If Bill thinks he lived.) he could steal those powers, maybe. Alternatively, stealing the Precognition could remove one of Bill's biggest counters to Fate's massive level of combat experience.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

So who are you leaning towards?

 

[Imaginym]

I'm not sure.

Doctor Fate needs to avoid getting transmuted by Bill & fool him, but can win afterwards. How likely Doctor Fate is to do that, I don't know. Anyone know how DF usually acts from the start against threatening opponents he knows about?

Bill needs to transmute Doctor Fate, & seems likely to do so... but if Fate avoids it without Bill realizing it, as detailed above, Bill could lose. But on the other hand, Bill still has time stop & precognition. But precognition might not work against time travel. Not sure.

Would Bill's precognition tell him about the actions of someone from a different timeline/universe, who's a time traveler?

I suppose as long as Bill stops time, doesn't unstop it, &/or his Precognition tells him Fate's strategy, & he transmutes, he could win. But again, does a power that lets you see what's coming in the future tell you about an attack in the past from a time traveler? Could Memory Manipulation screw with this?

Also, Fate's power absorption might be useful.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Power absorption would definitely stop Bill. It kinda depends on if Fate can resist transmutation which Bill more than not uses first. Both like to monologue a bit but in a full blown battle I doubt that'll happen. If Fate can resist transmutation then he more than likely power absorbs Bill. If not then Bill snaps

 

[Imaginym]

How does Fate's power absorption work, though? Would it work against time stop, & how likely is Bill to do that?

Also, Doctor Fate doesn't resist transmutation, although he has Transmutation, Matter Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, & Astral Projection. Could he Astral Project & untransmute himself to cure his transmutation? Or just dodge with teleportation or intangibility or time travel?

(Also, I just noticed he has Mind Control. Does Bill resist that?)

 

[TheArsenal1212]

It's kinda hard to exactly dodge Bill's transmutation. It's a snap not a beam one can avoid. Bill is likely to transmutated first yes

I don't think you can transmutate yourself unless you have resistance to it in the first place or have high enough regen. So unless Fate basically leads with something quicker or as quick as the snap that is deadly, he loses

 

[Imaginym]

Even with Biological Manipulation & Healing? Could he fight while Astrally Projecting?

Can it affect intangible beings?

Alternatively, what if Fate goes for Mind Control, Soul Manipulation, or Time Travel?

Also I just noticed he has Attack Reflection (Would that work?), Duplication, & Immortality. Wish the profile said what kind of Immortality.

What about cloning himself with Duplication so the clones fight Bill instead of the one he transmutes?

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Transmutation wouldn't be able to affect an intangible being, however IIRC Fate is intangible to begin with and needs to become intangible.

Biological manip doesn't help here and his own transmutation is simply changing the blood of an opponent which is also worthless here.

Mind control is just telling beings what to do and I doubt Fate leads with it. Same with soul manipulation in which I doubt it's faster than the snap or that he leads with it.

His healing doesn't imply to be good enough to prevent or overcome transmutation

Fate doesn't lead with clones and even if he did Bill still snaps and transmutes all of them

Astral projection would be a big help... except again Fate doesn't lead with it. Fate almost always in a fight leads with energy blasts or something similar and the stuff he does lead shouldn't be quicker than a snap

 

[Jinsye]

Fate has type 1 and 5 immortality. I can get the scan in a bit.

 

[Imaginym]

What about Power Absorption? How are we sure Bill wouldn't be cocky enough to make a quip before transmuting that might cue in Fate, with all his experience, to then become intangible, or redirect?

Would it be possible for Fate to astrally project post-transmutation? (I dunno the context of most of his feats, so I dunno if he's ever left his body while it's inanimate.)

Come to think of it, aren't their multiple souls? Kent and Nabu? If Bill transmutes Kent's body, couldn't the helmet still retaliate, since it's shown autonomy before & I doubt Bill would be transmuting Nabu's soul? (Dunno if that applies to this continuity of Dr. Fate, though.)

Also, "shouldn't be quicker than" in Speed Equalized?

 

[Imaginym]

Fate has type 1 and 5 immortality. I can get the scan in a bit.

Thanks. May be good to add to his profile. Although I'm not sure if Longevity & Deathless Immortality help against snap-transmutation turning Kent's body to, say, solid gold like what happened with Stanford Pines, given that he wouldn't see it coming & supposedly, his opening moves aren't very useful against that.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

It would but I don't think that matters in this key @imaginym

Also yeah speed is Equalised but a snap is faster than most of Fate's more deadly haxes which eh doesn't lead with anyway. Also Fate loves to monologue just as much as Bill does hahaha

Immortality would change things here though

 

[Imaginym]

I don't see any dividers in Dr. Fate's profile's powers & abilities. If he has stuff exclusive to certain keys, like types of immortality, those may be worth noting. Any other exclusives? In any case, Type 5 would help him survive transmutation?

5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

I take it that's not applicable to Kent+Inza Fate at Low 2-C, though? Just Nabu?

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Yeah I doubt that is Kent and Inza. It's incredibly likely that's just Nabu

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Bump

 

[Dannysayan]

hm...i'm also currently unsure about who would win.

 

[Dannysayan]

bump!

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

>A match Bill doesn't get stomped by

 

[TheArsenal1212]

I know right hahaha

 

[Dannysayan]

bu m p

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Bumping cause I like this match.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Bump.