DiU speed upgrade (or downgrade)

[Sus]

Part 4 Characters are listed as relativistic+ due to fighting red hot chilli pepper, who moves at the speed of light

although this is correct, it uses SoL for all his speed stats, which is incorrect

RHCP is stated to move through wires at the speed of light but nothing suggests his combat speed is not superior/inferior, especially that it can react to its own sol movement

So my alternative is scaling them to echoes act 3 who can blitz koichi, who in turn can react to sol movement

This should make echoes act 3 (and everyone who scales to it) FTL


And RHCP SOL is only for its movement through wires and its combat speed scales to ea3

This scales to akira, kira, josuke and jotaro, as well as any irrelevant villain who scales to them

 

[Hazem]

Agree

 

[ImmortalDread]

Mhm agreed

 

[Arceus0x]

seems legit

 

[Sus]

Oh btw

This would make echoes act 2 "possibly ftl" as well, for the same justification

And josuke seems to be slower than rhcp's movements, but since the majority of stand users can react to their stands and that josuke could match kira later on, this can be deemed as an outlier

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

Makes sense. I agree.

 

[Sus]

While we're at it, the hand should be downgraded, its canonically very slow, getting mocked by a weakened rhcp and could only tag it by surprise
Even if you count the sneak feat, nothing proves the weakened rhcp was anywhere close to his average speed

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think the bubble appears at the speed of light, but at the same speed in which he fights Josuke, since he's only at the speed of light when he's traveling through the wire and here he's coming out of it. Hence Koichi could react to it. Koichi and Josuke have similar reactions, RHCP moving at the SoL seemed like teleportation to Josuke, there is a clear issue there.

 

[Sus]

I don't think the bubble appears at the speed of light, but at the same speed in which he fights Josuke, since he's only at the speed of light when he's traveling through the wire and here he's coming out of it. Hence Koichi could react to it. Koichi and Josuke have similar reactions, RHCP moving at the SoL seemed like teleportation to Josuke, there is a clear issue there.

This crt is solely using already accepted scaling, this isn't really the thread to argue about koichis reaction speed

But do you mind elaborating on the issue as i don't really understand?

 

[Sus]

Oh i think i got it, pretty sure this has been brought up before and that we agreed that josuke couldn't react due to not knowing where is rhcp coming from, not that he's slower

Even then, i already pointed out the possibility that josuke's reactions might not scale

We either:
1- treat it as josuke was taken by surprise
2- an outlier, because he summoned his stand at the same speed as kira who could bring out his stand while act 3 was mid attack
3- josuke got faster from the rhcp to the last arc

What do you think is the best option?

 

[Eficiente]

If RHCP comes out of the wire at the SoL in a way Koichi can react wouldn't he also get inside the wire in a way Josuke can react? I'm very sure that since coal tar is less conductive than a wire, RHCP wasn't moving as fast, hence Koichi could see him. I think this makes the most sense.

 

[Sus]

If RHCP comes out of the wire at the SoL in a way Koichi can react wouldn't he also get inside the wire in a way Josuke can react? I'm very sure that since coal tar is less conductive than a wire, RHCP wasn't moving as fast, hence Koichi could see him. I think this makes the most sense.

He could warn josuke before rhcp completed traveling through the wires

 

[Sus]

While we're at it, the hand should be downgraded, its canonically very slow, getting mocked by a weakened rhcp and could only tag it by surprise
Even if you count the sneak feat, nothing proves the weakened rhcp was anywhere close to his average speed

Also, what do you think of this?

 

[Eficiente]

A bubble forming should mean he was a bit sealed and affected, likely getting slowed down when coming out as the coal tar was in the asphalt outside. I would think that the strategy was to slow him down rather than to have him to his thing at the same speed but now with a bubble coming out first as a warning of where he will appear.

 

[Sus]

A bubble forming should mean he was a bit sealed and affected, likely getting slowed down when coming out as the coal tar was in the asphalt outside. I would think that the strategy was to slow him down rather than to have him to his thing at the same speed but now with a bubble coming out first as a warning of where he will appear.

Don't see how this changes my point, as we don't fully scale koichi to sol in the first place

Koichi picks up on this and warns Josuke that RHCP is about coming from that direction, all before RHCP actually finishes traversing the wire.

This isn't a SOL or even a FTL feat, but it is relativistic of some degree.

We need to determine a value to scale the stands to, anyway

the users have shown a degree of relativity to sol, the bubbles were to locate where is it coming from, not to slow it down, I don't know where that came from, as i already explained

josuke couldn't react due to not knowing where is rhcp coming from, not that he's slower

 

[Sus]

Also, there's the scenes of josuke, jotaro and koichi talking a bit while rhcp was traveling a short distance, josuke even activated his ability before rhcp arrived at his destination

We also have rhcp itself reacting and getting furious mid travel (a very short distance)

Them barely reacting is really just an issue of surprise, not speed

And even then, the tiniest but of upscaling from sol makes someone ftl

 

[Sus]

Humans can stay at "at most relativistic+" if you think they shouldn't scale, but stands have shown clear superiority to the speed of light

 

[Chariot190]

I'll respond in a bit, but I got bad news, for all of you.

 

[Sus]

I don't know what you're gonna say, but koichi can't downscale from sol and act 3 not be ftl

We either downgrade koichis reaction speed or upgrade act 3

 

[Sus]

Bro is pulling scans from heaven

 

[Sus]

It seems that you will take time, and i have to go sleep

I will check the thread in the morning

 

[Chariot190]

Part 4 Characters are listed as relativistic+ due to fighting red hot chilli pepper, who moves at the speed of light

This is a oversimplification of what's going on, here's the old (current I guess?) reasoning. I would, in fact, change this, by adding extra evidence, corroborating scaling to other fast things, and the reasoning is a bit wonky, so I would say it is outdated, but this is why (Actual copy pasted from the thread itself).

Spoiler

Speaks for itself, he could toss some hands in the same timeframe it took a lightspeed RHCP to exit a wire despite moving at lightspeed, of course throwing a fist is likely to be less distance then RHCP had to cover, but it'd still result in a good degree of relativity no matter how you slice it. Up to speaks for itself, he surpassed RHCP in speed under a specific circumstance, and while RHCP was being a tad cocky, it doesn't matter, because we're told that he didn't just catch him off guard, but outright surpassed him in that instance, of course that isn't CD's base speed and is hard to pull off, but he CAN hit up to said speed, just not normally. Also, it doesn't effect much, but it's been confirmed that RHCP was actively attacking from CD's blindspots.

For end of Part 4 CD, he scales above KQ, and KQ scales above Act 3, who can blitz Koichi, who has a degree of relative perception. Mostly just enforces CD's higher peak speed but its a thing.

FTL via restoration is obvious, Okuyasu being restored as faster than RHCP moving at light speed, WHILE he was moving at light speed, the speed of restoration can be changed manually though, but this would be its peak speed (Unfortunately, I looked, nobody at the end of the part actually reacts to CD's restoration in a situation where it would be going max speed, if it did we could have likely scaled the end of Part 4 Stands to FTL based on that, given we can easily presume a end of Part CD would be faster than a early-mid iteration, and he likely is, but it doesn't happen unfortunately).

As for Josuke, well, he DID manage to restore Okuyasu before RHCP moved 100m, which isn't the best feat, but it's also not like he was kinda rushing, probably some degree of sub-rel+ to rel. But the real feat is him picking up on RHCP while moving at lightspeed, apart of the same scene as CD's throwing a punch, while he was explicitly moving at lightspeed and commanding CD to strike him in the face. Obviously, this doesn't make him lightspeed, all he did was tell CD to strike, and RHCP had much further to move compared to Josuke who literally only had to think "CD there!" or something along those lines, which not only puts Josuke below RHCP, but below his own Stand who had to not only do what josuke did but also throw the attack, but at worst it'd still be some degree of low rel, given the wires aren't THAT long, something like a 10m wire for example would give Josuke Rel reactions even if just barely (baseline). Of course, we do know that Josuke was slower than the SOL RHCP, such as when he was turned around, but, that's still fair, the difference between Rel baseline and SOL is 10x, which is enough for Chili Pepper to rotate Josuke quickly and **** off. Both events occurred and both events can exist in tandem without blatant contradiction, though I'd still be cautious as it's not exactly possible to calculate precisely the exact distance, length of wire, etc and a mere thought is far less than what anyone else involved had to do here and Josuke is still demonstrably not as fast so "at most" comes into play here. Alternatively Relativistic could work if we want to remove the +, though we'd remove the "at most" in that case too as he's definitely some degree of Rel. At least Rel might also work. Either way Josuke is within Baseline Rel (about 4-5x slower than RHCP in a wire) to Rel+ (Though not lightspeed).

I also want to point out something of note.

RHCP popping up and blitzing Josuke isn't entirely due to speed (Though it's a factor) Josuke (and probably a lot of characters) have an issue with blindsides. It's explicitly pointed out though for Josuke, it doesn't matter how fast he is, if he doesn't know where or when an attack is coming, he can't react to it, even if his Stand's speed would allow him to easily block, dodge or deflect it. As seen in the above example "They're no match for Crazy Diamond's speed right? But do you know which direction they'll come? How many there are? Or when they'll finally come?" So yes, canonically, a Stand user or, more notably, their Stand, can fail to properly react to something even if they are fast enough to do so, simply because it's a blindside. Which circles around into RHCP, we all know about the RHCP wack-a-mole, well, it's actually been confirmed that what RHCP was doing would fall directly under that, he was explicitly attacking from blindspots, which is presumably why, even though Crazy Diamond should be fast enough to at least compete with it given he can surpass RHCP in speed under certain conditions at that point in the story, he was one step behind and failed till he was tipped off where RHCP would attack and it was no longer a blindside. Which allowed him to attack him at speeds that were at least some degree of relativity.

Also quick calc, not a real calc, it's iffy, half assed and subject to variables, but more a proof of concept. just to give a general idea of "yeah, they rel". The outlets are 4m+ apart bar the middle ones. CD's arm is 73cm+. This would make his punch at minimum rel, but of course likely a bit higher. This also applies to Koichi's reactions (albeit barely) and to RHCP at minimum. There's a few other instances I could net rel from but I'm sticking with this one, mostly because I already put in the effort.

although this is correct, it uses SoL for all his speed stats, which is incorrect

We literally DO NOT do that.
He's varies up to FTL at best depending on his charge, because he's stated to be faster or slower depending on his charge.
He's SOL in the wires because he's SOL in the wires, like, not much to say there, that's just how it works and is stated to work.

RHCP is stated to move through wires at the speed of light but nothing suggests his combat speed is not superior/inferior

This is flat out incorrect and not subject to debate.
First off, we go with what we see or can reasonably infer.
No statement indicates his speed is identical across the board and we know for a fact his combat speed can vary.
The SOL rating is static, that doesn't change no matter what, but his combat speed does in fact change depending on the situation, that fact alone proves the claim false, there is indeed information that states his combat speed is variable and different than his wire speed.
It can be fast, it can be slow, it changes depending on how much energy he has.
If he's running out of energy and is weakened, he is not only so low that The Hand can tag him, but he's even weaker too.
If he gets energy, such as immediately after the above, his speed increases along with his power. becoming so fast he appears to teleport from The Hand's perspective, and strong enough to blow his arm off with just his pinky.

Meaning, yes, we do have reason to believe his combat speed is different, because it straight up is. His movement in wires is static at the speed of light, this does not change, and his combat speed is variable outside of the wire, that alone means it can be different, and we see his speed change by whole magnitudes. his reaction speed on the other hand is the saving grace and what makes all this work but...

, especially that it can react to its own sol movement

I'd like to start with this

Reactions and Perceptions

In fiction, movement over long distances and movement over short distances - which can be dubbed "combat distances" - tend to be remarkably different for different characters, resulting in serious discrepancies when considering their overall speed. On this wiki, we therefore differentiate...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Reactions are dealt with in 1m increments. While it's true RHCP can act and is cognizant moving at that speed and he can do so quite well, we do not know if he's doing so within or under a 1m range.
But what we do know it he IS doing it within a handful of meters at most, as displayed in, coincidentally, that whole fight where he's popping out of the gaps between the concrete while moving between them at light speed.
This though is indeed true, we see this directly from his own perspective at one point, and he's able to pop out of concrete holes that litter the dock, and do so quickly, and he's able to come out of holes that are directly behind Josuke, and continuously pop up from his blindspots the moment he turns around, something RHCP wouldn't be able to do if he wasn't actively picking and choosing where to come out in real time.

For example, here's him moving at light speed through the wire, and actively reacting to and cursing Josuke for rescuing Okuyasu, before RHCP could reach an exit point to release, and thus kill Okuyasu.
And we see in the fight itself how RHCP is able to appear in front of Josuke, vanish into the wires, pop up in his blindspots and so on, something he wouldn't be able to do if he didn't have the reactions to do so, if he wasn't fast enough it would be flat out impossible for him to pull that off so many times, in fact

Even in direct combat we see him utilize it, for example the abobe, he punches CD away, and uses the entry port to enter the wire, move at light speed, pop back out of the wire and slam CD with two hard punches. And he does that multiple times, being able to slip in, move at light speed, and not overshoot his target, all mid-combat.

But what is also true is that your reaction speed doesn't inherently scale to your movement speed, in fact we have had many threads detailing that, such as space flight threads and more. But taht isn't to say RHCP's reaction speed doesn't scale to him at all, it most certainly does as stated above, it just isn't 1:1.

For example, old scaling is old but the point remains.
The tiles are 4m wide with entry points.

412.32558195348846cm/4.1232558195348846m.

This means RHCP has 4.1232558195348846m to react to exit, that's 0.2425267904218474965c, Relativistic.
And best scenario as some tiles have an entry point in the middle, that's half the distance, so 2.0616279097674423m.
Which would give him 0.485053580843694993 reactions.

Notice how neither is speed of light reactions? Yet both enable him to do what we see on panel time and time again? Of course, it could be a little higher, but a little higher isn't lightspeed. As such, I'm going to have to say that this argument doesn't hold up, RHCP's reactions scaling to his speed of light movement doesn't inherently mean he's 1:1 with it, especially as we see otherwise, he's close, most certainly, but not exactly.

But let's be more specific.

We have CD throwing a punch before RHCP exists the wire.

CD's arm length, from edge of shoulder to knuckle (which would be where his fist ends) is 70.8157894736842114208cm, 0.708157894736842114208m.

That would give CD a straight punch of 0.708157894736842114208m, factoring in RHCP distance it'd be 0.3424755866231960145290101272444095100525c assuming the 4.1232558195348846m distance.

And for the 2.0616279097674423m distance, it'd be 0.684951173246392029058020254488819020105c, Rel+ at best.

As you can see, no matter how you go about it, using the values we can actually confirm, it's just Rel-Rel+ for CD's punch at best, and Rel for RHCP. RHCP might be a tad higher for reactions, but not even close to say "yeah SOL or above lmao", not even enough for a possibly.

But yeah, actually, calc wise I'd be willing to go with RHCP's reactions as scaling, that's more concrete and something we 100% know the dude was doing and how he functions.
Along with that we have CD being able to tag him.
"B-but Josuke was having some trouble"

As stated countless times before, just because the user isn't super fast, doesn't mean the Stand isn't, in fact Koichi himself is an example, his own Stand actively blitzes him. Sentient Stands like Sex Pistols, GER, Spice Girl, and more bypass this issue entirely as they don't need to be commanded or told what to do ahead of time.
Here's a quote from Part 4 where they say just because you have an extremely fast Stand, you still have to actually tell it where to aim. Even if your Stand has the speed to hit something, you being slower can cause issues.
But in the end Josuke downscales all the same, honestly I'd put an "at most rel" in front of him or something. Same with Koichi. They're all slower than the Stands, but they're aren't magnitudes slower.

So my alternative is scaling them to echoes act 3 who can blitz koichi, who in turn can react to sol movement

That isn't how it works, Koichi reacted to SOL movement, over a distance. SOL Perception is within 1 meter, Koichi did so from far away while RHCP was covering a wire. That isn't SOL reactions, that's rel at best, and low rel at that. If I yell at you a car is coming from 10m away, that doesn't give me subsonic reactions and perception, it gives me whatever the car's speed is / 10m. That's what's happening here, they're reacting to him moving at light speed, over a distance. Luckily the distance isn't massive, but it's sure as **** large enough to make them like anywhere between 2 to 7x slower.
To elaborate further because this is a blatant case of cherry picking,


Koichi is shown having trouble keeping up with RHCP, he's evidently not SOL in reactions, if he was he'd be able to actually follow it 1:1.
Yes, Koichi is tracking him, but barely, he even says he's to fast to anticipate, and whenever Koichi notices him he's gone again. Koichi is struggling to keep up with lightspeed, is he keeping up with it? Only the loosest sense of the word.

Did he warn Josuke of a object approaching at lightspeed? Yes, but with forewarning himself, while the thing was still moving.

To further that, what Koichi does say is that only Jotaro Kujo among them is able to follow something at lightspeed. (Raws even more explicit)
紙一重の差で地下電線の中に逃げている！
そして電線内のこいつは光速に等しい！
承太郎さんだけだ！ 光速に追いつけるのは
He's escaping into underground power lines by a paper-thin margin!
And this guy inside the power lines is equal to the speed of light!
Only Jotaro! He's the only one who can keep up with the speed of light...

The best that implicates is he's barely dodging CD by just a smidge, but that still doesn't do anything in terms of scaling. In fact, with that info, there's actually a few panels where CD gets attacked, goes to counter and barely misses, with the zigzag trail of RHCP entering the wires and going away being visible, most of those could be calced ngl and get rel wow shocking
This makes Josuke, Koichi, Okuyasu, all sublight in reactions themselves, they straight up can't keep up with it without issue. Only Jotaro Kujo the dude with like 15 ******* FTL statements and feats is able to keep up with light, shocking I know.
And it goes even further
That's something corroborated by all Part 4 material, including 6251 (which was published shortly after this arc ended actually, 6251 covers up to Ratt, that's a mere 3 fights after RHCP) which states Akira (As in RHCP himself) recognizes Star Platinum as being the fastest Stand and stated by the tailpiece to be the fastest Stand as well.
So yeah, shockingly, the FTL Jotaro and Star Platinum are able to keep up with lightspeed and the sol dude himself is like "yeah he's the fastest Stand lmao".

I'm pointing this out to explain that they unironically say the FTL dude, and only the FTL dude, is FTL, and the other not FTL dudes, are in fact, not FTL.

Thus, only Jotaro and Star Platinum scale to RHCP, it's speeds, and all that other wacky stuff. CD does, but only to a degree.

So no, Koichi isn't scaling to RHCP's SOL rating, he can react, but only barely, that is not grounds for 1:1 scaling, honestly, just scale his ass to the furthest distance between wires and slap "at most", bam, easy speed.

But even if that was the case, there's still an issue. While Act 3 did indeed blitz Koichi, he didn't blitz a SOL/FTL Koichi, and of course just because you blitzed someone doesn't mean you're as fast as that OTHER dude who blitzed him too, that doesn't work like that. I mean to give an example, RHCP blitzed Koichi, Star Platinum blitzed Koichi, guess which one is faster? It ain't RHCP. Or hell, Act 3 blitzed Koichi, Plat did too, but Plat also blitzes the dude who blitzed Act 3 who blitzed Koichi.

This should make echoes act 3 (and everyone who scales to it) FTL

It doesn't, the premise is flawed and cherry picked, sorry mate.

And RHCP SOL is only for its movement through wires and its combat speed scales to ea3

Again, even if Koichi was SOL, you don't scale people based on blitzing a dude.

This scales to akira, kira, josuke and jotaro, as well as any irrelevant villain who scales to them

It does not.

Jotaro and Star Platinum are FTL. Like I'm not even going to elaborate, **** an even slower version of Star Platinum is flat out stated to be FTL in sheer speed.


Like obviously he's faster.

Josuke is weird but he downscales from some degree of rel, at least he does later on.
Crazy Diamond is Relativistic, in base. His Restoration speed is FTL (at Max Speed), as displayed when he, uh, outsped RHCP in a wire As you and everyone can see in the gif posted above, where Okuyasu is healed and brought back at FTL speeds.
Pissed CD is his own thing, his stats absolutely go wild when he becomes furious, but nobody in the Part besides the FTL Jotaro and Star Platinum and Rohan Kishibe scale to him. Everyone who pissed him off either 1. Got Blitzed. 2. Was smart enough not to do it in the first place so never had to deal with the wacky FTL CD like Kira or RHCP himself.

But there's another important thing to note,

When it comes to certain types of Stands, like of a short-distance power type, it's like a slider, within the range of activation, in Josuke's case up to 2m, a Stand's precision, speed and power can vary. As also explained here.
1.射程距離による区分スタンドの射程距離とは？ スタンドは原則的に、スタンド所有者を中心としたある一定の範囲内の中でしか使用することができない。 そして、そのスタンドが活動できる範囲を便宜的に「射程距離」と呼ぶ。 射程距離とスタンドのパワーは反比例の関係にあり、射程距離から遠のくほど、パワーは減少していく。 これはほぼすべてのスタンドに当てはまる原則である。 また、射程距離はあくまで "有効"射程距離と解釈すべきで、その射程距離から外れた瞬間、スタンドがパワーを失うのではなく、あくまで徐々にパワーが減少していくグラデーションの中で、スタンドが有効的に活動できる範囲が「射程距離」である。 射程距離という観点から見ると、すべてのスタンドは「近距離タイプ（A型） ｣「遠距離タイプ（B型）」という2つのタイプに大別できる。 傾向として、近距離タイプは強大なパワーを有し、直接的な打撃や破壊に秀でたものが多く（シルバーチャリオッツ、クレイジ-・ダイヤモンド、スティッキィ・フフィンガーズなど）、遠距離タイプは特殊な能力を用い間接的な攻撃を行なうタイプのものが多いようである（ハイエロファントグリーン、エコーズACT1、ビーチ・ボーイなど）。 射程距離にとらわれないスタンド遠距離タイプの中には「自動操縦ﾀイプ（B '型）」と呼ばれるものが存在し、このタイプのみ ｢スタンドのパワーと射程距離は反比例の関係にある」という原則にとらわれない。 これはP 84本文中、スタンドの第3の定理で触れているとおり、自動操縦タイプはスタンドの能力がもたらした「効果」の延長であり、スタンド所有者の意志や精神力とは無関係のため、そのパワーが落ちることはないのである。 また、ごく一部のスタンドには射程距離とは無関係のスタンドも存在する。 クヌム神、アース・ウインド・アン」ド・ファイヤーのようにスタンド所有者の特殊能力=スタンドである場合や、ザ・ワールド、キング・クリムゾンのように“時間”に影響を与えるスタンドは、射程距離を持たないのである。
The important line would be this "Range and Stand power are inversely related; the further away from the range, the less powerful the Stand becomes. This principle applies to almost all stands. The range of a stand should be interpreted as its "effective" range. The moment a stand goes out of range, it does not lose its power; rather, the "range" is the range within which the stand can operate effectively in a gradually decreasing gradation of power."

There's also like, ten other things talking about that, in Part 3, 4, 5 6, uh, all of them actually mention and explain that at least once or twice. But why am I bringing that up?

This scene here. In this instance, we have RHCP who after having charged up, wants to test his prowess against Josuke, and as such RHCP tells Josuke to come as close as he can, to basically abuse the Rule of Stand Capabilities being proportional to how close it is, he tells Josuke to do this because he wants CD to get as close to Star Platinum's speed as he can as a bit of a test.
Josuke obliges and does that, he punches RHCP in the face, and he's fast enough he blitzes RHCP and smashes his face in, to which RHCP stutters astounded "h-he's fast!".
In this scene, Crazy Diamond, without a rage amp, surpasses RHCP in speed, this is why CD has a variable speed, he's normally a degree of rel, but at optimal range his speed is now fast enough to surpass RHCP comp-letely. And that isn't me presuming, though even if it was I'd still be correct given that's blatantly what's happening there but...

油断はしていたが、スピードに自信のあった音石のスタンドをも上回る。
Though he was careless, he outperformed the Otoishi's Stand, where he was confident in his speed.
To be exact it uses the word "上回る", which means to exceed, surpass, be better than, etc.
As in while RHCP was being cocky, CD none the less flat out surpassed him in speed, which he was confident in (This is listed as CD's speed performance fyi, as in it's trying to convey CD is able to surpass RHCP's speed at his peak).

This also, inversely, means CD's casual speed isn't magnitudes below RHCP either, as said it's like a slider, there is a difference between CD at the edge of the range, and CD at peak, but it isn't like 100x or anything insane, it's probably just a few times difference, and a few times difference below > RHCP's reactions being exceeded, is still Rel, though quite low into it.

It goes like
Peak CD > RHCP > Base CD, that's how stands work my dudes.

To further add onto that he can throw hands with RHCP when charged, while on Josuke's ass, though he lost the exchange after a handful of dodges, he's still comparable.

Killer Queen, in turn scales to CD, he's comparable to CD's base at the end of the part. The reason why I specify end of the part is because CD himself got faster as the part continues onward. As in he can throw hands with a CD who's > low Rel, up to above RHCP in speed CD. But it's an unquantifiable amount so we just rate him the same speed because it's impossible to tell, we should account for that, and I'll make mention of that in Kira's speed, as I'm overhauling his profile at the moment, or at least i was before this happened.
And for what it's worth, Kira and KQ can perceive Star Platinum's attacks, though, only barely and was ultimately blown the **** out by them, which I mean, yeah that is to be expected.
Though i do want to note that as CD's anger progresses KQ can barely keep up (He can keep up, but he has to focus all his attention on his speed), I'd also like to point out CD was striking where KQ was going, he was faster but he was also skill checking him (Which is indeed something expressed by Kira's inexperience in a actual fight), plus CD was close to Josuke, he was closer to point-blank than he was to his maximum, meaning Kira was reacting to, though hardly, a CD who's getting mad who was also making better use of it's maximum speed, which exceeds RHCP (Though Josuke was injured, Kira was too, I'm simplifying things a bit to explain).
And as we know, KQ does upscale off Act 3 who blitzed Koichi. But after you gather everything, KQ also falls into the "yeah he's relativistic but we can't say he's any faster".

The Hand is ******* garbage, like get that shit off the field garbage, like goddamn right he don't scale to RHCP.

Don't even get me started on Koichi tbh, Act 3 is rel, he we can just calc, which I'll do later.

Rohan is MFTL tho, dude's built different (Outspeeds Furious CD, who eclipses every non Plat Stand in the Part). He's the faster ****** in the part not named Star Platinum.

All this is to say the CRT is wrong, and while we could do with some changes, and I even have a idea for better speed for the humans not named Rohan or Jotaro, your premise is factually incorrect and flawed. I vehemently disagree with the CRT and will probably do my own in the future.

Oh, also, if we take Part 8 scaling into account, that'd make KQ, uh, relativistic via scaling to Paisley Park, like the same values give or take, so we have that going for it too, tbh I should probably finish that Paisley Profile, not like I didnt gather everything nearly a year ago

A bubble forming should mean he was a bit sealed and affected, likely getting slowed down when coming out as the coal tar was in the asphalt outside. I would think that the strategy was to slow him down rather than to have him to his thing at the same speed but now with a bubble coming out first as a warning of where he will appear.

Efi hush, you know damn well that isn't the case, you know damn well that isn't what happened, and you know damn well that's complete and utter conjecture on your end and if it WAS the case, RHCP would've have recognized that, and just like, popped up from somewhere else? I do not have time to deal with you. I can not stress this enough do not insert your headcannon in this.
The fact they never mention it's going to slow him down, the fact it's not mentioned in any supplementary material (Meanwhile shit like RHCP attacking from Josuke's blindspots to make it harder for him to react is said, making the RHCP issue a combination of things), and the fact they FLAT OUT SAY what it's doing, in that, it's just serving as a warning he's coming so Josuke can actually tell CD where the hell to strike.

We aren't going with your headcanon, worst part is slowing it down is laughable, do you really think a flimsy bubble a toddler could pop is going to slow RHCP down? Hell, he isn't even stuck in it, he hasn't even emerged from the wire to get stuck in the first place. What's happening is effectively the same as sticking a wire in a puddle, it's discharge.

There is no "should", cease this behavior.
The strategy was never even hinted to have anything to do with being slowed down. Don't make shit up.

I don't think the bubble appears at the speed of light, but at the same speed in which he fights Josuke, since he's only at the speed of light when he's traveling through the wire and here he's coming out of it. Hence Koichi could react to it. Koichi and Josuke have similar reactions, RHCP moving at the SoL seemed like teleportation to Josuke, there is a clear issue there.

What you think doesn't matter if that's what happened.
RHCP is moving and is coming at them at lightspeed, the tar warns of his approach and that he's in that wire due to the electrical discharge. Now that they know which wire he's in, CD strikes, smashing his face in before he can finish crossing the wire, emerge, and attack.
This is what happened, this the point, there is no "I don't think it's this fast", because it being that fast is the whole premise behind the action.
If it wasn't that fast, RHCP would've unironically outsped the bubble, any other argument which just make CD faster, not slower. Either way, factually incorrect, cease.

Josuke and Koichi do not have similar reactions. I can bring up over a dozen examples, do not make claims that are demonstrably false. I'm not asking fyi, I don't want to see anything said that would take me a whole five seconds to prove false.

There is no issue Efi, it unironically, all checks out, I'm actually surprised it's as consistent as this. Josuke having issues, CD being as fast as it is, they're relation to Stands that are that fast, everything, it all lines up to a relatively decent degree.

If RHCP comes out of the wire at the SoL in a way Koichi can react wouldn't he also get inside the wire in a way Josuke can react? I'm very sure that since coal tar is less conductive than a wire, RHCP wasn't moving as fast, hence Koichi could see him. I think this makes the most sense.

Efi that is actually wrong.
RHCP doesn't control his speed in the wire, he's equal to the speed of light, no more, no less. There is no "moving slower". If I must I'll even bring up the relevant guides.
And yes, tar is less conductive compared to the wire (which even IRL, has electricity move at 98c% fyi), but RHCP isn't being conducted by the tar, he's in the wire coming, he isn't already exited, that's the misunderstanding you're having.
If he was exiting, he'd 1. Notice the tar, go oh ****, and then just like, not emerge? 2. He emerged after Josuke was alerted, electricity sparking where he comes from is a signal of him, not him itself.

You're also just kinda ignoring the concept of distance here, being slower than him but reacting to him when you know he's coming from like 10 feet away isn't the same as reacting to him after he already emerged, punched you in the dick, and then dipped out. That isn't to say Josuke is as fast or doesn't struggle, but don't simplify things, it's disingenuous.

Anyway, as it's been brought up.

地下電線を駆使して、敵の死角から攻撃。相手が反撃で地面を破壊すればするほど、有利な環境となった。
Attack from the enemy's blind spot by making full use of underground wires. The more the opponent destroyed the ground with a counterattack, the more favorable the environment.

So yeah, Josuke was having trouble, and he did get blitzed once, and I do in fact agree that he isn't even close to RHCP's speed, but RHCP was also making sure to attack from places Josuke couldn't immediately react toward. The moment Josuke wasn't being blindsided, CD punched him in the face.

1- treat it as josuke was taken by surprise

While true, he's still 100% slower.

2- an outlier, because he summoned his stand at the same speed as kira who could bring out his stand while act 3 was mid attack

It isn't an outlier, it's just nuanced and people seem to forget Stands go brrr. Or that distance exists. And your Act 3 premise doesn't work like that anyhow. Hell no verse works like that off the top of my head.

3- josuke got faster from the rhcp to the last arc

This, while true, is also unquantifiable. And definitely not enough to say his speed increased to where his base speed is equal or above his peak speed (It probably is ngl, but zero hard evidence), we just know their speed gets better over time as they get into Stand battles.

We need to determine a value to scale the stands to, anyway

the users have shown a degree of relativity to sol, the bubbles were to locate where is it coming from, not to slow it down, I don't know where that came from, as i already explained

I'll calc some shit I guess, and then get Armor or another calc lad to see if it checks out and fix it when I overhaul them.

Also, there's the scenes of josuke, jotaro and koichi talking a bit while rhcp was traveling a short distance, josuke even activated his ability before rhcp arrived at his destination

This is false. Or rather, a half truth.
Josuke, Jotaro and Koichi reacted and discussed saving Okuyasu when he was being taken away at the speed of light and moving at such a speed, but "short distance" is false, we do not know har far RHCP moved, we know how far he DIDN'T move, but we don't know how far he had moved.

The destination in question was 100m away fyi.
Assuming Josuke saved Okuyasu right before RHCP reached his destination (99m) that'd make them 0.01c, or Sub-Rel at the minimum. Of course, RHCP didn't get that far (and if he did, that'd make CD's healing 99c lmao as he brought Okuyasu back and it cut back to RHCP still traveling going wtf, meaning it covered the distance RHCP covered before he himself finished the rest).
But as I was saying, it was obviously less than 99m, but was it 10m? 20? 50? No idea, so we have the minimum of sub-rel, but it could very well be higher, but in order for it to be SOL or FTL, RHCP would have had to only cover 1m, that's LESS than his own height, obviously he covered that, so no way is that feat SOL for Josuke, but it's still a decent feat nonetheless.

Though using the anime timeframe and the 100m distance at lightspeed, would get them like [https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calc...=second&given_data_last=ds_va_dt&action=solve 0.000333556s reactions], factored by the timeframe of like 57 seconds from their pov, it would be low relativistic as well

Them barely reacting is really just an issue of surprise, not speed

It's both.

And even then, the tiniest but of upscaling from sol makes someone ftl

This is true, which is why Peak CD is FTL imo. But peak CD isn't normal CD, in fact, RHCP straight up ****** up letting that happen, he himself regretted letting CD do that.
Of course Rel is aight for base CD imo, though unfortunately I think Rel is safer than Rel+ as that's what the minimums say.

We either downgrade koichis reaction speed or upgrade act 3

I'd rather take the 3rd option and calc a speed for him, and Act 3 can just stay where it is, with slightly tweaked reasoning.

Bro is pulling scans from heaven

I would if I had time, there's way more shit I could add to this but I was busy doing other stuff, I'll pull that shit on my own time when I fix this stuff.

Humans can stay at "at most relativistic+" if you think they shouldn't scale,

We def gotta do something about that +, even if it's just a downgrade by a mere 5%. The + itself is sus.

I don't know what you're gonna say, but koichi can't downscale from sol and act 3 not be ftl

Also, even assuming absolutely nothing was subject to change, this isn't true. You can blitz a rel and not be FTL, it's case by case, context sensitive and in this case, Koichi is like, 5-10x below lightspeed so...

but stands have shown clear superiority to the speed of light

Stands can be ANY speed, we have Stands as fast as light, Stands faster than light, Stands a bit slower than light, Stands as fast as bullets, Stands that are randomly MHS and MHS+, Stands as fast as planes, subsonic, supersonic, even human speed and below human speed. Unless the Stand has a statement, scales to a stand that does, or a feat of its own, it's as fast as whatever it's shown to be. There is no rules to how fast or strong a Stand can be, other than it's below GER if it's pre Part 5. And Star Platinum if it's Part 4 or below.

Not gonna lie, I thought we had Part 4 at low rel, not Rel+
tldr thread sus, Josuke bad, CD fast, Koichi exists, and I feel this might be my fault for letting some of this shit slide and the profiles not doing a good job explaining the nuances (Goddamn, we've only talked about RHCP, and only ONE facet of him, we haven't even gotten into the other Rel scaling yet), I'm gonna do my own CRT and Efi stop making things up. As such, I would like for this to be closed so I can deal with it properly and not scramble to throw together the bare minimum in like half an hour because this came out of nowhere, given I was working on Kira, I could probably spare a bit of time and work on the others for the next while once he's finished.

 

[Chariot190]

Fyi, End of Part CD and KQ could've been FTL if KQ actually reacted to CD's glass shard on the return.
That's all that needed to happen, but he failed to, twice.

He could've twice in a row but failed, like dude legit had two chances to be FTL and he fumbled. Best you got is Hayato saying it wouldn't work twice, but Josuke proved him wrong and it ain't like Hayato knows how fast they are, he can' even see them.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

well they were coming at him from behind when he thought that attack was dealt with

 

[Sus]

Jeez, bro interviewed araki just to refute me

It will take me quite alot to read all that and i will probably respond in different messages
At first, i already mentioned the stuff in the justification such as those

RHCP popping up and blitzing Josuke isn't entirely due to speed (Though it's a factor) Josuke (and probably a lot of characters) have an issue with blindsides. It's explicitly pointed out though for Josuke, it doesn't matter how fast he is, if he doesn't know where or when an attack is coming, he can't react to it, even if his Stand's speed would allow him to easily block, dodge or deflect it. As seen in the above example "They're no match for Crazy Diamond's speed right? But do you know which direction they'll come? How many there are? Or when they'll finally come?"

For end of Part 4 CD, he scales above KQ, and KQ scales above Act 3, who can blitz Koichi, who has a degree of relative perception. Mostly just enforces CD's higher peak speed but its a thing.

And im well aware that rhcp speed varies, i mentioned that as well

 

[Chariot190]

Jeez, bro interviewed araki just to refute me

It will take me quite alot to read all that and i will probably respond in different messages
At first, i already mentioned the stuff in the justification such as those


And im well aware that rhcp speed varies, i mentioned that as well

Dude just don't bother. It isn't happening. We aren't upgrading them, and if we're downgrading anything it sure as **** isn't going to be done in here and definitely not for the reasons presented.

If you're aware he varies don't say he doesn't because that's quite literally what you said.

 

[Sus]

Let me finish what you said because pages nees rework anyway even if we don't change stats

 

[Sus]

If you're aware he varies don't say he doesn't because that's quite literally what you said.

When? I said his traveling speed doesn't

 

[Chariot190]

well they were coming at him from behind when he thought that attack was dealt with

Doesn't matter.
He didn't react to it, he has to actually react to them for it to scale. You're right that he was taken from behind but that doesn't confirm nor deny he could've reacted, it's just a heap of nothing.

 

[Chariot190]

Let me finish what you said because pages nees rework anyway even if we don't change stats

Yeah, which I'm already taking care of.
As said I was literally in the middle of dealing with Kira and overhauling his whole page before this was brought up.

When? I said his traveling speed doesn't

Literally in your opening post lad
"RHCP is stated to move through wires at the speed of light but nothing suggests his combat speed is not superior/inferior"
The mere fact his speed can vary
means exactly that, it can be literally both inferior and superior. Obviously if his speed is variable it means his speed is almost never actually going to like up with the hyperspecific light speed value.

 

[Sus]

The Hand is ******* garbage, like get that shit off the field garbage, like goddamn right he don't scale to RHCP.

Yeah, i did purpose removing the possibly from his profile

Don't even get me started on Koichi tbh, Act 3 is rel, he we can just calc, which I'll do later.

It would be much better, i will continue reading the post

 

[Sus]

All this is to say the CRT is wrong, and while we could do with some changes, and I even have a idea for better speed for the humans not named Rohan or Jotaro, your premise is factually incorrect and flawed. I vehemently disagree with the CRT and will probably do my own in the future.

Oh, also, if we take Part 8 scaling into account, that'd make KQ, uh, relativistic via scaling to Paisley Park, like the same values give or take, so we have that going for it too, tbh I should probably finish that Paisley Profile, not like I didnt gather everything nearly a year ago

You do make sense, but the profiles barely reflect any of what you said

Josuke, Jotaro and Koichi reacted and discussed saving Okuyasu when he was being taken away at the speed of light and moving at such a speed, but "short distance" is false, we do not know har far RHCP moved, we know how far he DIDN'T move, but we don't know how far he had moved.

We know that he didn't cross the entire town when light can cross all of earth in a near instant, this is some sort of relativity

 

[Sus]

I'd rather take the 3rd option and calc a speed for him, and Act 3 can just stay where it is, with slightly tweaked reasoning.

Far better

Also, even assuming absolutely nothing was subject to change, this isn't true. You can blitz a rel and not be FTL, it's case by case, context sensitive and in this case, Koichi is like, 5-10x below lightspeed so...

Koichi is not rel on the profile, not my fault for misunderstanding the profile when it literally says rel+

 

[Sus]

tldr thread sus, Josuke bad, CD fast, Koichi exists, and I feel this might be my fault for letting some of this shit slide and the profiles not doing a good job explaining the nuances (Goddamn, we've only talked about RHCP, and only ONE facet of him, we haven't even gotten into the other Rel scaling yet), I'm gonna do my own CRT and Efi stop making things up. As such, I would like for this to be closed so I can deal with it properly and not scramble to throw together the bare minimum in like half an hour because this came out of nowhere, given I was working on Kira, I could probably spare a bit of time and work on the others for the next while once he's finished.

Yeah makes sense,the whole premise was based on rel+ koichi, which seems to be not true so..

 

[Sus]

That shit was long to read

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, i did purpose removing the possibly from his profile

Which is the wrong way to go about it.
Also you didn't propose that at all from what I've seen either way..

It would be much better, i will continue reading the post

Later, it shouldn't be hard.

You do make sense, but the profiles barely reflect any of what you said

Which is why I'm going one by one overhauling every character. Ngl the only good JoJo profiles we have ATM are probably Part 8 (and they need updating too), and probably Jotaro is acceptable (though he's easy to, he just upscaled off everything so he ain't exactly hard to place). Part 7 profiles being the worst (I've finished Gyro, Funny and Diego overhaul tho, Diego I particularly like how he turned out).

I'm done Jonathan as well and a good deal into the Hamon page, I'm basically done Dio as well (Human keys as well, Tlmbrg wanted that) and I started Kira yesterday.
I've also just recently finished doing a range Crt for every Stand for parts 3-6 that I was going to publish as soon as I was done Kira (That BTD thread was a precursor to the range CRT).
You can ask a handful of lads, from Baken, Ban, to even a few mods. I usually run any changes or additions I have by them. I might take awhile doing shit, but once it's done it's done good imo.
Armor in particular is probably sick of getting random JoJo DMS every other hour

Koichi is not rel on the profile, not my fault for misunderstanding the profile when it literally says rel+

Honestly, I don't know why he's rel+, they're supposed to be 0.20c. And Koichi is supposed to downscale that. (As in over 5x slower).

Anyway yeah, a few calcs, some tweaking, etc and it should be good. I'll look over stuff tomorrow (going to bed) I guess but I wouldn't expect anything to be done in short order, overhauls take days of work each character between making renders, compiling everything they've ever done, adding references, making clips, translating shit, etc. Kira if all goes well should be about done late tomorrow, maybe mid next day.

I do appreciate your attempt at helping though, I hope there's no hard feelings, you've been pretty chill from what I've seen around.

 

[Sus]

Which is the wrong way to go about it.
Also you didn't propose that at all.

While we're at it, the hand should be downgraded, its canonically very slow, getting mocked by a weakened rhcp and could only tag it by surprise
Even if you count the sneak feat, nothing proves the weakened rhcp was anywhere close to his average speed

^

I do appreciate your attempt at helping though, I hope there's no hard feelings, you've been pretty chill from what I've seen around.

Yeah, its ok to be wrong

But may i ask, is it ok if i make ability addition threads to a character?

 

[Chariot190]

^

Yeah, its ok to be wrong

But may i ask, is it ok if i make ability addition threads to a character?

My b then, probably missed that while I was typing.

And as long as it ain't Hamon or Part 7 go wild.

Me and the lads were working on a misc ability CRT for everything but there's so much shit missing in general (Bruno still doesn't have supernatural will lmao) that if you want to add a few we can easily just remove whatever you covered.
Tbh you could even join chat if you want.

 

[Sus]

long as it ain't Hamon or Part 7 go wild.

Its part 3, so nah

that if you want to add a few we can easily just remove whatever you covered.

I don't understand

Tbh you could even join chat if you want.

Sure

 

[Chariot190]

I don't understand

If you make a CRT for an ability we already have covered, we'll just remove it from our ability CRT whenever that drops.