Ditto (Pokémon)

[FeebasExE]

I came accross this thread and I found something interesting. Upon looking up Ditto's profile I discovered a strange downplay.

The Pokedex entry says he can alter the genetic makeup to become anything it wants.

Game mechanics says he can't copy stamina or level. And that's that, game mechanics. Pokedex entry doesn't say that, no anime, manga or game material story says that. I guess you can place this under Ditto getting certain details wrong but ehh...


What confuses me more is that the wiki says he can't copy skills and intelligence. Which neither game mechanics nor the lore ever made mention of. I guess the brain isn't included as part of transformation package and I wonder how Ditto can immediately use moves of anything he copies without having to train for them

What's going on?

 

[Hypertornado099]

What lore statement says he can copy stamina, level, and intelligence?

 

[FeebasExE]

What lore statement says he can copy stamina, level, and intelligence?

The lore simply states he can copy the molecular structure of others.

If memory serves my right all three of those are dictated by our molecular structure.

If anything, there's nothing supporting the game mechanics limitations that he can't copy stamina and others.

 

[Imaginym]

Wasn't there some kind of Pokemon canon split done to separate the canons of the anime, manga, & games from one another?

That said, Ditto copies genetic/cellular structure. It's not stated to be molecular level, AFAIK.
& its transformation is known to be fallible & varying.

Emerald	A Ditto rearranges its cell structure to transform itself. However, if it tries to change based on its memory, it will get details wrong.

Sun	It can reorganize its cells to make itself into a duplicate of anything it sees. The quality of the duplicate depends on the individual.

Ultra Sun	While it can transform into anything, each Ditto apparently has its own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to transformations.

& the info about the Transformations seem to imply it maintain its own mind, which would imply Ditto's own flaws:

Scarlet	Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if made to laugh, it can’t maintain its disguise.

Gold	It can transform into anything. When it sleeps, it changes into a stone to avoid being attacked.

Sword	It can reconstitute its entire cellular structure to change into what it sees, but it returns to normal when it relaxes.

If it were as thoughtless as an actual stone, I doubt it'd wake up, & if stuff like personality or intelligence carried over, a partially failing disguise during amusement might mean partial loss of the form's mental add-ons causes a joke to suddenly cease being understood & thus, cease being funny to Ditto, but that doesn't seem like it's what happens.
Similar for Ditto reverting upon relaxing.

& it's not like Pokemon completely shows adherence to how the mind is a plaything of the body, given magic, psychic powers & the undead are things.

How is it copying Magic Guard, or the Fairy typing of a Pokemon affected by Magic Powder? The Plasma-based body of Rotom, the incorporeal body of many ghost-types? Vaporeon has cell composition similar to water molecules, Water makes up 80% of Manaphy's body, Sinistea is possessing a teacup, Sinistcha is matcha tea, Slugma is moving magma, Magnemite is floating metal magnets.
Vanillite is an icicle that didn't want to melt in the morning sun!

Emerald	A Ditto rearranges its cell structure to transform itself. However, if it tries to change based on its memory, it will get details wrong.

LeafGreen	Capable of copying an opponent's genetic code to instantly transform itself into a duplicate of the enemy.

For those, among other Pokemon:
WHAT GENETICS?

Copying those shouldn't be plausible if we adhere to real world science about genetics & cells as things like water, teacups, ghosts, magic, magnets & frozen water do not have DNA, genes nor cells!


So what do we do know points to Ditto still maintaining some of its own mental issues (Which may vary by individual, apparently.) like being unable to maintain its transformation if it laughs, returning to normal when it relaxes, not literally losing its mind when it turns into a stone to sleep in peace instead of pieces, & Pokemon not being entirely reliable about what has genetics.


If we're to assume it copies Intelligence we need feats. To its credit it copies moves, but we don't know how skillfully.
Does every martial artist remember the ideal motions for all their techniques every day of their lives?
Every alchemist remember every formula in exactitude?
Every diplomat all the customs for every scenario?

If you copied someone's brain on a given day, I'm skeptic they'd have perfect knowledge of all the things they can do at the time, even if it's their profession they train for. People screw up & I'm skeptic Pokemon are so perfect there either, if you'll forgive this somewhat argument from incredulity.

IMHO, Ditto's entries lean more towards it maintaining its mental flaws, the matter about relaxing suggests being Ditto is less Stamina-exerting than being Transformed, & Level is game mechanics, so we defer to game mechanics.

& because of the canon split, stuff about Ditto in the games would have to be argued against using stuff from the games.
What in the games contradict the user maintaining its own HP & Level, or Transform only granting only 5 PP per move per instance of Transforming?

What are the feats in favor of Ditto copying Stamina & Intelligence despite what info we have pointing at least slightly otherwise, especially when Pokemon's adherence to genetics/cells, which are the basis of Ditto's Transformations, is sometimes dubious?

 

[FeebasExE]

pick any random anime episode where Ditto transforms to his opponent for battle and you'll understand what I mean.


I mean, the intelligence of some Pokémon are through the roof and Ditto can still copy and use the moves like he's known them for ages. Isn't Machoke mastered all martial arts? Rinse and repeat for every single Pokémon, including those who vast levels of intelligence.

If you're telling me he doesn't copy intelligence and skill then there's no way Ditto can use the moves of the vast number of Pokémon he copies.

 

[FeebasExE]

If I became Superman right now and have no knowledge of what he can do, then I cannot use them no?

Now apply this to Ditto and this Pokémon can copy skill.

And don't forget moves can be anything from crazy skill based techniques (fighting type moves) ans intelligence based ones(psychic type moves)

 

[Imaginym]

pick any random anime episode where Ditto transforms to his opponent for battle and you'll understand what I mean.

Canon split between Anime, Games & Manga says not to do that.

If you're telling me he doesn't copy intelligence and skill then there's no way Ditto can use the moves of the vast number of Pokémon he copies.

I don't think being able to use moves many species can use necessarily means copying the skill level of the individual, even if using the same moves does indicate skill.

If I became Superman right now and have no knowledge of what he can do, then I cannot use them no?

You might not have his research of techniques or experience, or not initially remember those, how it feels doing those techniques, etc.

And don't forget moves can be anything from crazy skill based techniques (fighting type moves) ans intelligence based ones(psychic type moves)

The majority of Psychic-type moves do not claim a correlation to intelligence, although some -but not all- Psychic-type Pokemon have their abilities originate from their brains.
But coming from the brain doesn't mean intelligence-based.

 

[FeebasExE]

Canon split between Anime, Games & Manga says not to do that.

It doesn't change anything.

Because no lore material says the Ditto's aren't as intelligent or skilled as those it transforms.

So even if we apply canon split room, it doesn't make sense and your argument is basically using game mechanics. And that won't even include the intelligence and skill bits which are contradicted by Ditto using moves asap

I don't think being able to use moves many species can use necessarily means copying the skill level of the individual, even if using the same moves does indicate skill.

So like..... Why?

What's your argument that the skill level aren't equal when nothing supports that argument

And I've explained why skill and intelligence limitation doesn't even work.

You might not have his research of techniques or experience, or not initially remember those, how it feels doing those techniques, etc.

Yeah, well then there's Ditto who transforms and it's all immediately accessible to them.

Which means he basically has knowledge on how to use all the techniques and skills of his opponent

The majority of Psychic-type moves do not claim a correlation to intelligence, although some -but not all- Psychic-type Pokemon have their abilities originate from their brains.
But coming from the brain doesn't mean intelligence-based.

Majority doesn't exclude the minority who act based on intelligence, that Ditto can copy

 

[Hypertornado099]

The lore simply states he can copy the molecular structure of others.

If memory serves my right all three of those are dictated by our molecular structure.

You can copy something's molecular structure without having their intelligence or stamina

If anything, there's nothing supporting the game mechanics limitations that he can't copy stamina and others.

There's also no lore stating he can anyways

 

[Imaginym]

Indeed. (But cellular/genetic. Again, IDK where folks are getting molecular from.)

There's no lore in the games canon clearly indicating it copies intelligence.
Maybe there is in other canons, but Ditto's profile is based on the games, so other canons would be for other keys.

Not to mention Ditto's means of copying genetics/cells is dubious when as mentioned, many Pokemon & things it can copy via Transform don't make sense to be copied via genetics cells. Ice, water, rock, magma, etc. don't have cells.
& when there's Pokemon who have cells like water molecules or 80% water & genetic fusion, Pokemon's adherence to the science is dubious.

Hence why I think it's suspect to ask us to believe that it DOES copy it.
Plus, doing that is putting a burden of proof to prove a negative on the opposition: You're asking them to prove Pokemon DOESN'T adhere to such things, or that Ditto DOESN'T copy Intelligence, Stamina, etc.
Proving a negative, when fiction is involved, is often nigh-impossible, nigh unfalsifiable, & thus is considered bad form in debating.

Not to mention as I said, what lore we DO have for the games indicates Ditto carries its/their own flaws when Transformed like reverting if relaxing or laughing, or not entirely copying mentality since it doesn't presumably go brainless to sleep as a rock.

& regarding Transformed moves, in regards to the game canon, the way Ditto gets those moves IS via Transform, & we lack other explanations. You can't just say that the means of gaining the moves is canon but the PP/Stamina limitations (We often take PP as an abstraction of PP anyway.) from that SAME means of gaining moves is game mechanics.

If you wanna claim Ditto CAN copy Intelligence, Stamina, etc., I'd prefer you not ask for proof a negative -That Ditto CAN'T copy such things.- while going against what little info Transform & the Pokedex gives us on the matter.

Instead, get feats applicable for the relevant canon.


Sorry for any bother.

 

[FeebasExE]

You can copy something's molecular structure without having their intelligence or stamina

Doesn't apply to Ditto then

There's also no lore stating he can anyways

That's like the entire point of his copying. Being able to copy any Pokémon, including those with crazy stamina and those with incredible intelligence.

 

[FeebasExE]

Indeed. (But cellular/genetic. Again, IDK where folks are getting molecular from.)

There's no lore in the games canon clearly indicating it copies intelligence.
Maybe there is in other canons, but Ditto's profile is based on the games, so other canons would be for other keys.

Not to mention Ditto's means of copying genetics/cells is dubious when as mentioned, many Pokemon & things it can copy via Transform don't make sense to be copied via genetics cells. Ice, water, rock, magma, etc. don't have cells.
& when there's Pokemon who have cells like water molecules or 80% water & genetic fusion, Pokemon's adherence to the science is dubious.

That's just impressive mimicry. It's basically doing way more than it's mentioned to be able to do

Hence why I think it's suspect to ask us to believe that it DOES copy it.
Plus, doing that is putting a burden of proof to prove a negative on the opposition: You're asking them to prove Pokemon DOESN'T adhere to such things, or that Ditto DOESN'T copy Intelligence, Stamina, etc.
Proving a negative, when fiction is involved, is often nigh-impossible, nigh unfalsifiable, & thus is considered bad form in debating.

Game mechanics with no lore detail confirming it

Not to mention as I said, what lore we DO have for the games indicates Ditto carries its/their own flaws when Transformed like reverting if relaxing or laughing, or not entirely copying mentality since it doesn't presumably go brainless to sleep as a rock.

Its good you mentioned the flaws. Because the flaws stated clearly the limitations of Ditto. And nowhere does it mention its mental capacity doesn't match up to those it copies. Especially when he can copy and use the capabilities of any Pokémon he copies as easily as if he'd been born with the.. How do you achieve that without having the intelligence and skills required to pull them off?

Didn't Machamp have to train so much to master them martial arts? Only for Ditto to copy in 3 second and can use it all

& regarding Transformed moves, in regards to the game canon, the way Ditto gets those moves IS via Transform, & we lack other explanations. You can't just say that the means of gaining the moves is canon but the PP/Stamina limitations (We often take PP as an abstraction of PP anyway.) from that SAME means of gaining moves is game mechanics.

The means of gaining the moves are canon as the Pokedex entry explains exactly what it does. There's no official word that it excludes stamina when that conclusion was drawn from the game mechanics way it works in order to balance things.

As for intelligence, I'd need you to show where you got that from because not even the game mechanics implies that.

If you wanna claim Ditto CAN copy Intelligence, Stamina, etc., I'd prefer you not ask for proof a negative -That Ditto CAN'T copy such things.- while going against what little info Transform & the Pokedex gives us on the matter.

Instead, get feats applicable for the relevant canon.


Sorry for any bother.

I already proved why he copies intelligence and stamina via copying Pokémon with intelligence and stamina and pulling off the things they can do with the intelligence and stamina

 

[FeebasExE]

You can copy something's molecular structure without having their intelligence or stamina

Who says that?

There's also no lore stating he can anyways

Transform explicitly say he copies everything even including the moves

The user transforms into a copy of the target right down to having the same move set.

Japanese version

(漢字) 相手の ポケモンに 変身することで 相手と まったく 同じ 技が 使える。

(Kanji) By transforming into your opponent's Pokémon, you can use the exact same techniques as your opponent.

There's no exclusion in that statement. So I don't know where you're all getting that information from outside of game mechanics

 

[FeebasExE]

Also can you explain the logic behind being able to transform into something and being able to use all their techniques from the get go.


I don't think you'd be able to pick up a pc and suddenly know how to program on the same level as the Top Programmers just because you're in their body. And Ditto can do just that.

 

[Imaginym]

That's just impressive mimicry. It's basically doing way more than it's mentioned to be able to do

Alternatively, it's contradicting how its powers are stated to work, as well as the basis of the whole "copying the genetic skills in the DNA", putting more scrutiny on the moves matter, which the Pokedex entries notedly don't actually mention Ditto copying.

Game mechanics with no lore detail confirming it

You can call Transform game mechanics, but that still doesn't excuse the lack of feats.
Having the same moves doesn't mean performing them as well.

And no, you putting burden of proof on people to prove a negative is not game mechanics.
You're asking us to believe it copies stuff it's not stated to do & which the Pokedex has info that puts that info under scrutiny & your basis is moves you refuse to acknowledge the Stamina limitations of the method they come with.

Its good you mentioned the flaws. Because the flaws stated clearly the limitations of Ditto. And nowhere does it mention its mental capacity doesn't match up to those it copies.

I explained how. Being able to have your transformation falter because you still have your sense of humour, sleeping as a rock, implying it has its own mind, & un-transforming if you relax.

Especially when he can copy and use the capabilities of any Pokémon he copies as easily as if he'd been born with the.. How do you achieve that without having the intelligence and skills required to pull them off?

Well in the absence of explanation for how Ditto can do moves it never learned how to do other than Transforming.... "Game Mechanics".
If it didn't have the moves, Transform would be almost useless in gameplay after all. But it's still useful with the PP limited to PP.

Didn't Machamp have to train so much to master them martial arts? Only for Ditto to copy in 3 second and can use it all

Scans?
In theory, a Ditto & a Machamp have battled, but we never saw it, nor their IC tactics, nor what skills they used, nor if Ditto copied all the memories exactly.
While it can certainly happen in gameplay, we don't know the details.

The means of gaining the moves are canon as the Pokedex entry explains exactly what it does. There's no official word that it excludes stamina when that conclusion was drawn from the game mechanics way it works in order to balance things.

In the absence of other evidence, yes, plus inferrences from Pokedex info; If Ditto de-transforms when relaxing, that implies being transformed exerts it, for example.
Also the Pokedex entries don't mention Ditto copying moves:

Ditto (Pokémon) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

The closest it comes to saying that is "Capable of copying an opponent's genetic code to instantly transform itself into a duplicate of the enemy."

As for intelligence, I'd need you to show where you got that from because not even the game mechanics implies that.

Got what?

I already proved why he copies intelligence and stamina via copying Pokémon with intelligence and stamina and pulling off the things they can do with the intelligence and stamina

Matching species doesn't matching intelligence especially with evidence of having 1's own mind present.
Having the same moveset doesn't imply using the same moves as skillfully.
In theory, things like Vital Throws, Fire Blasts, Wing Attacks, etc., can be done at different levels of skill.

Heck, consider this entry:
"It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."

If Ditto can canonically fail when trying to transform into something it can't see, how is it becoming something with skills it hasn't seen used?
Not to mention the notedly fallible memory.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Doesn't apply to Ditto then

That's like the entire point of his copying. Being able to copy any Pokémon, including those with crazy stamina and those with incredible intelligence.

Is there a reason why its inapplicable to Ditto?

Copying the bodies of Pokemon with crazy stamina and intelligence does not mean he can copy their stamina and intelligence unless there's more evidence

 

[FeebasExE]

Alternatively, it's contradicting how its powers are stated to work, as well as the basis of the whole "copying the genetic skills in the DNA", putting more scrutiny on the moves matter, which the Pokedex entries notedly don't actually mention Ditto copying.

And that's very irrelevant and doesn't help your case or mine. You're bloating this thread. Let's stay on track.

You can call Transform game mechanics, but that still doesn't excuse the lack of feats.
Having the same moves doesn't mean performing them as well.

But he can perform them very well without having to master them at all.

From the games, anime and even manga.

And no, you putting burden of proof on people to prove a negative is not game mechanics.
You're asking us to believe it copies stuff it's not stated to do & which the Pokedex has info that puts that info under scrutiny & your basis is moves you refuse to acknowledge the Stamina limitations of the method they come with.

It can copy everything

It's an all Inclusive statement.

I should prove it can copy X when it's mentioned it can copy everything.

What logic is that.

I explained how. Being able to have your transformation falter because you still have your sense of humour, sleeping as a rock, implying it has its own mind, & un-transforming if you relax.

...... Does not have any relationship on his ability to copy and use the techniques of others as if it's known them all no its life.

Once again, those are limitation that were confirmed. And I don't see intelligence or stamina being made mention of there.

Well in the absence of explanation for how Ditto can do moves it never learned how to do other than Transforming.... "Game Mechanics".
If it didn't have the moves, Transform would be almost useless in gameplay after all. But it's still useful with the PP limited to PP.

Game mechanics. Even if you stretch it to the absolute max most of Dittos feats come from the anime so the game mechanics will not exist to support the flawed line of thinking

Scans?
In theory, a Ditto & a Machamp have battled, but we never saw it, nor their IC tactics, nor what skills they used, nor if Ditto copied all the memories exactly.
While it can certainly happen in gameplay, we don't know the details.

Pokedex description of Transforma mentions he can copy the exact same techniques as his opponent.

Imposter says almost the same thing.

In the anime a trainers Ditto transformed into Pikachu and was just as strong as the Pikachu and could use all of its moves.

In the absence of other evidence, yes, plus inferrences from Pokedex info; If Ditto de-transforms when relaxing, that implies being transformed exerts it, for example.
Also the Pokedex entries don't mention Ditto copying moves:

Ditto (Pokémon) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

The Pokedex description of moves are not game mechanics in case you've forgotten.

His signature ability mentions it copying moves so uhh, I don't know what you're talking about

The closest it comes to saying that is "Capable of copying an opponent's genetic code to instantly transform itself into a duplicate of the enemy."

Got what?

Seriously I feel you're just bloating your message for the sake of it. What's this argument exactly?

Move and ability descriptions aren't canon?


And thank God for canon split because Ditto has story details that gives me everything I need to counter this argument

Matching species doesn't matching intelligence especially with evidence of having 1's own mind present.
Having the same moveset doesn't imply using the same moves as skillfully.
In theory, things like Vital Throws, Fire Blasts, Wing Attacks, etc., can be done at different levels of skill.

Having your own mindset doesn't exclude Dittos ability to use the exact same techniques that matches his opponents and move that require high levels of intellect like various psychic Pokémon and their moves as well as fighting type techniques

Heck, consider this entry:
"It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."
If Ditto can canonically fail when trying to transform into something it can't see, how is it becoming something with skills it hasn't seen used?
Not to mention the notedly fallible memory.

That's and in transformed ditto and this argument doesn't work. Why?

I'm saying a Ditto transforming into others allows him to match their skill and intelligence because how the hell is he being able by I use their techniques if he doesn't have the knowledge and skill.

What you're saying is an untransforned ditto relying on its own memory to transform
.
False equivalence

 

[FeebasExE]

Is there a reason why its inapplicable to Ditto?

Copying the bodies of Pokemon with crazy stamina and intelligence does not mean he can copy their stamina and intelligence unless there's more evidence

Stamina thing was game mechanics unless you can show me lore stating anything of that sort.

Intelligence arguments falls completely flat when you factor in the moves and Pokémon who rely on intelligence to use their moves, that Ditto can copy

 

[FeebasExE]

I'll make a crt about this for sure