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Destiny General Discussion Thread

That would mean every Lightbearer and Darkness user should be granted type 5 acausality so Oryx and Akka will no longer be alone in that aspect.
 
No, they're merely empowered by Light and Dark. Light and Dark in their more pure abstract forms have type 5 acausality, Guardians only use manifestations of them.

Besides completely normal people can interact with Guardians just fine. So that already disqualifies them from type 5 by the wiki's standards.
 
WHYNAUT said:
No, they're merely empowered by Light and Dark. Light and Dark in their more pure abstract forms have type 5 acausality, Guardians only use manifestations of them.
Click to expand...
There is no indication that particular scan is talking about Light and Darkness in their most pure and abstract form. Lightbearers and Darkness users alike all have either Light or Darkness flowing through them which already gives them passive Type 4.
WHYNAUT said:
Besides completely normal people can interact with Guardians just fine. So that already disqualifies them from type 5 by the wiki's standards.
Click to expand...
You can have normal people interact with you while having type 5, the acausality page doesn't say that's necessarily impossible. Pretty much most scans about Light and Dark users' paracausality already state they do not operate under a causality system which is by definition type 5 but if that interaction rule is still in effect then some sort of rule change/addition to acausality needs to be made.
 
Well first of all, your quote is only talking about the believes of specific in-verse orders. It's not gospel. Far from it, considering how often they have been wrong.

Secondly, they're called paracausal, which doesn't necessarily mean they transcend cause and affect, merely that they don't follow conventional causality. This is backed up on multiple occassions in-verse. The only things in-verse with the necessary feats and statements of type 5 are Light, Dark and Oryx.

Yes the interaction is rule is still in effect. A normal human being capable of breaking a bottle over your head or shooting you, disqualifies you from type 5 acausality. The requirements on type 5 are rather strict. As far as that goes I agree the page should be changed to reflect this.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Well first of all, your quote is only talking about the believes of specific in-verse orders. It's not gospel. Far from it, considering how often they have been wrong.
Click to expand...
What about it is wrong? We have numerous statements that Light and Darkness frees the users from causality already, not make the user operate on a different system, and this is just another scan saying the same thing but in a different way but with higher implications.
WHYNAUT said:
Secondly, they're called paracausal, which doesn't necessarily mean they transcend cause and affect, merely that they don't follow conventional causality. This is backed up on multiple occassions in-verse. The only things in-verse with the necessary feats and statements of type 5 are Light, Dark and Oryx.
Click to expand...
What occasions are you speaking of?
WHYNAUT said:
Yes the interaction is rule is still in effect. A normal human being capable of breaking a bottle over your head or shooting you, disqualifies you from type 5 acausality. The requirements on type 5 are rather strict. As far as that goes I agree the page should be changed to reflect this.
Click to expand...
That doesn't make any sense. Interacting with a type 4 is equally ridiculous as it is interacting with a type 5 but one is just outside of the system while the other operates on a different one. They are both equally ridiculous.
 
I also like to mention that Oryx has type 5 acausality in his first key which would disqualify him from type 5 acausality if those rules about interaction are still a thing.
 
Basic "free from causality" statements are defaulted to type 4. The scan having higher implications isn't valid because of it just being a statement from people with no achievements to their name. We don't even know these orders that are being referred to.

"Mara digested this with a shot of ancient ice, slushy against her tongue. "Acausality. You mean that whatever's happening—whatever influence we have on, say, neutrino beams—it's not accounted for by physics?"

* "Not by any physics we know. At face, it seems to violate some conservation laws, which would make Emmy Noether's head spin." Kelda remembers the names of her ancient physicist heroes even when she cannot tell which way is sunward.

"Secret physics." Mara thought of the Traveler and its works. "We've all felt it, haven't we? We know we're…" How to say "trapped in the clinch between light and dark," she wondered, without quite so much portent? "We're in contact with certain numinous elements.""

* "I drive my Sparrow at breakneck speed because it reminds me of my place in the universe. It reminds me of every force that acts on me, every "law" of motion I can or can't break. I'm most interested in the ones I can't break, honestly. Considering I am myself an aberration of the laws of physics, I rather like finding the edges of things. Not that I'm content to leave those edges as they are. I just get a sort of… thrill out of finding them."

* "But Quria had instanced itself to the other side of the gate, and built a holdfast to keep the way open. Quria’s objective was to exploit the paracausal physics of Oryx’s throne to become divine. It organized a series of test invasions."

* "Both causal and paracausal laws of the universe might… share a common… language. Getting a sample of the Hive's… music… will help me… study it."

It's pretty clear there's still rules involved.

No, they are not. Type 4 doesn't make you harder to interact with. Type 4 just means you follow different rules. Further explanations and feats determine what this gives you, not the other way around.
Besides even if type 4 acausality was what you claim it to be, that would just mean Guardians don't qualify.

An argument can indeed be made that Oryx shouldn't have it in his first key. To my knowledge he has it because the only things that ever affected him after 'acquiring' type 5 are Light, Dark and other extremely powerful Sword Logic users. All of these shouldn't disqualify him for obvious reasons.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Basic "free from causality" statements are defaulted to type 4. The scan having higher implications isn't valid because of it just being a statement from people with no achievements to their name. We don't even know these orders that are being referred to.

"Mara digested this with a shot of ancient ice, slushy against her tongue. "Acausality. You mean that whatever's happening—whatever influence we have on, say, neutrino beams—it's not accounted for by physics?"

* "Not by any physics we know. At face, it seems to violate some conservation laws, which would make Emmy Noether's head spin." Kelda remembers the names of her ancient physicist heroes even when she cannot tell which way is sunward.

"Secret physics." Mara thought of the Traveler and its works. "We've all felt it, haven't we? We know we're…" How to say "trapped in the clinch between light and dark," she wondered, without quite so much portent? "We're in contact with certain numinous elements.""

* "I drive my Sparrow at breakneck speed because it reminds me of my place in the universe. It reminds me of every force that acts on me, every "law" of motion I can or can't break. I'm most interested in the ones I can't break, honestly. Considering I am myself an aberration of the laws of physics, I rather like finding the edges of things. Not that I'm content to leave those edges as they are. I just get a sort of… thrill out of finding them."

* "But Quria had instanced itself to the other side of the gate, and built a holdfast to keep the way open. Quria’s objective was to exploit the paracausal physics of Oryx’s throne to become divine. It organized a series of test invasions."

* "Both causal and paracausal laws of the universe might… share a common… language. Getting a sample of the Hive's… music… will help me… study it."

It's pretty clear there's still rules involved.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying there are two systems of laws of physics Destiny, causal and paracausal?
WHYNAUT said:
No, they are not. Type 4 doesn't make you harder to interact with. Type 4 just means you follow different rules. Further explanations and feats determine what this gives you, not the other way around.
Besides even if type 4 acausality was what you claim it to be, that would just mean Guardians don't qualify.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between interacting with a type 4 and type 5?
WHYNAUT said:
An argument can indeed be made that Oryx shouldn't have it in his first key. To my knowledge he has it because the only things that ever affected him after 'acquiring' type 5 are Light, Dark and other extremely powerful Sword Logic users. All of these shouldn't disqualify him for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
But if that interacting rule was as strict as you say it is that wouldn't matter. He shouldn't be at all processed by pretty much anybody. I just don't believe that rule is still that strict.
 
Another thing is the phrase "weak acausal" that was also used in the thread that gave Oryx his type 5 is also mentioned from the lore entry you brought up.

"Some sort of weak acausality." Kelda lowered her flowerbulb build into a hammock of tangled plastic. "They've been firing encoded neutrino beams through volunteers, and it looks as if the resulting patterns of scatter depend on the cognitive and emotional state of the target. It's a very reliable detection, at least four sigma, but the effect size is terribly small."

"The Monist Position, or the Deflationary Position, considers the Darkness as a technologically sophisticated force, perhaps a post-Singularity intelligence. Adherents invoke information theory or contend that the universe is a simulation, allowing advanced intelligence to gain weakly acausal powers by bending the rules."
 
I'm saying that Light and Dark users still work on some form of logic.

The difference is that one can be interacted with because they still follows a set of rules, the other ignores cause and effect entirely. If you were to try and hurt a type 5 acausal with a laser it wouldn't work. After all getting hurt by it would be an effect and the laser hitting them would be the cause.

The rule is strictly about interaction with characters and the like afaik, since fiction is often nonsensical about these things.

If those with type 5 were truly not allowed to have any interaction then almost no character in fiction would have it.

In Oryx's case I'm pretty sure there's an entry that implies it's a one-way street. Oryx can cause things, but things can't affect him. I'd have to search for it though.

I'm not sure what your second post's point is.

Either way, if you want to change something you can either:

- Try to downgrade material Oryx's acausality.

- Or try to upgrade it for everyone else.

I can guarantee you that latter won't go through but at least there may be people who can better explain why.

I might agree with the former though.
 
"There is no such thing as a “low-power Guardian.” There may be armor you can’t actuate or weapons mechanisms you can’t understand. There may be techniques you have yet to master and missions you dare not attempt. But the possibility of your Light is unlimited. I mean this very seriously. A novice go player has the exact same power to place stones as a 9-dan master. The only difference between them lies in their knowledge and ability to choose. This is my firmly held and personal truth: the only difference in “power” between you and me lies in what we have learned and practiced"

Tidbit from Ikora writing to Sen-aret from the Witch Queen ARG
 
There is also a confirmation that blacks holes in the destiny universe are their own infinite universe within the normal universe so that's something not unique to the Distributary the Awoken came from. Which led to a discussion that the regular universe is perhaps in a black hole of a superordinate universe.

And there were other talks about who wrote the Truth to Power and the ultimate message within it that led to a potential discovery that Savathun wasn't trying to get information from the Dreaming City in an attempt to have her own black hole universe to get infinite tributes for her worm or gain power within it's localized time but rather learn of the secrets on how the Awoken were able to break out of their black hole universe and try to do the same in the regular universe.
 
Looks like Warlock and Guardians should be getting a 2-A upgrade key for defeating Rhulk if the Worm God's tiers are still accurate.
 

The Hidden Dossier — Record — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

// Dear Ikora Rey, With respectful courtesiis and the proper bow, I have read the texts you sent. I understood very little. My thanks multiply. Truly my knowledge of Light is distinct from your own. For me, Light is in the air and the joints. It is eaten. It is received in radiation and...
www.ishtar-collective.net www.ishtar-collective.net

Been waiting for this to be officially released to share a link here, but this is the official version of the Witch Queen ARG - The Hidden Dossier.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it discusses the true significance of Truth to Power, highlights the Black Hole Cosmogenesis theory that exists in Destiny as proven with the Distributary and, to put it one way, Savathun's efforts to breach the fourth wall by extending her influence to either a superordinate (parent) universe, or a child universe.
 
Catalyst75 said:

The Hidden Dossier — Record — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject

// Dear Ikora Rey, With respectful courtesiis and the proper bow, I have read the texts you sent. I understood very little. My thanks multiply. Truly my knowledge of Light is distinct from your own. For me, Light is in the air and the joints. It is eaten. It is received in radiation and...
www.ishtar-collective.net www.ishtar-collective.net

Been waiting for this to be officially released to share a link here, but this is the official version of the Witch Queen ARG - The Hidden Dossier.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it discusses the true significance of Truth to Power, highlights the Black Hole Cosmogenesis theory that exists in Destiny as proven with the Distributary and, to put it one way, Savathun's efforts to breach the fourth wall by extending her influence to either a superordinate (parent) universe, or a child universe.
Click to expand...
Neat. Whats the mean? 🗿
 
If my memory on the lore is correct, It looks like the new strand subclasses are playing into the memory aspects of Light and Darkness. Like how Darkness is tied to never forgetting and maintaining memories while the Light is tied to forgetting and letting go and the Guardians are somehow going to use the strand power to manipulate those aspects.

Going by the site, it's a Darkness power so that's fitting since it involves manipulating the conscious and seemingly fate.
 
Last edited:
Dienomite22 said:
If my memory on the lore is correct, It looks like the new strand subclasses are playing into the memory aspects of Light and Darkness. Like how Darkness is tied to never forgetting and maintaining memories while the Light is tied to forgetting and letting go and the Guardians are somehow going to use the strand power to manipulate those aspects.

Going by the site, it's a Darkness power so that's fitting since it involves manipulating the conscious and seemingly fate.
Click to expand...
To be more specific, Light is about Creation, Darkness is more closely related to Consciousness; Strand is psychic energy that forms an extra dimension - a matrix, an alternate psychic universe - that connects everything - all living beings and minds, together. Guardians will be able to use the Darkness to peer into it and pull on the psychic universe's threads that connect all living beings. They also call it a "cosmic web".
 
WHYNAUT said:
Here is an example in-game.

There's also the fact that the inital Taken corruption in the Dreaming City was there because of Oryx.

When he intruded into Mara's throne world it was also corrupted, the results of which are seen in the Shattered Throne dungeon.
Click to expand...
Darn do there’s no argument for passive taking?
Also might you have a doc or vault for oryx so I can analyze it there too?I’ve read every Ishtar with oryx in it but I just gotta make sure ( thx for the scans btw)
 
Well in the Ascendant Plane he can spread the Taken Blight very quickly over large areas, so that's like diet passive Taking.

Wdym exactly by that? If you're just looking for more stuff with info on Oryx's abilities than his page has a lot of references with links. I don't know of any respect threads that go into detail and are up-to-date if that what's you're looking for however.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Well in the Ascendant Plane he can spread the Taken Blight very quickly over large areas, so that's like diet passive Taking.

Wdym exactly by that? If you're just looking for more stuff with info on Oryx's abilities than his page has a lot of references with links. I don't know of any respect threads that go into detail and are up-to-date if that what's you're looking for however.
Click to expand...
Hey thanks ! But here’s a big question why is manipulating axioms conceptual manipulation type 1? And why is controlling truth type 1 as well ? I saw that akkas truth manipulation was likened to oryx daughters but wouldn’t it just be law manipulation
 
Well I'm not a math or philosophy nerd, so take this with a grain of salt. An axiom is a premise or starting point for reason, it's inherently true. And in this case these axioms explicitly govern reality.

The Daughters have the primary axiom feats and it was likened to Akka's ability to kill truths, basically scaling. Besides, law and conceptual manipulation can have a lot of overlap.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Well I'm not a math or philosophy nerd, so take this with a grain of salt. An axiom is a premise or starting point for reason, it's inherently true. And in this case these axioms explicitly govern reality.

The Daughters have the primary axiom feats and it was likened to Akka's ability to kill truths, basically scaling. Besides, law and conceptual manipulation can have a lot of overlap
Click to expand...
WHYNAUT said:
Well I'm not a math or philosophy nerd, so take this with a grain of salt. An axiom is a premise or starting point for reason, it's inherently true. And in this case these axioms explicitly govern reality.

The Daughters have the primary axiom feats and it was likened to Akka's ability to kill truths, basically scaling. Besides, law and conceptual manipulation can have a lot of overlap.
Click to expand...
What about the infinite layers to abilities can u do an in depth explanation
 
That's not a thing. There's plenty of 'layers', but nothing has an infinite amount of them.
 
That doesn't work for a number of reasons:
1. There aren't actually infinite Hive, it's complete hyperbole
2. Small differences in Sword Logic don't make the stronger one immune (at best they're resistant)
3. The majority of Hive are on similar levels, it's not one big hierarchy
4. The weakest among the Hive very much do not have 4-D hax galore
 
WHYNAUT said:
That doesn't work for a number of reasons:
1. There aren't actually infinite Hive, it's complete hyperbole
2. Small differences in Sword Logic don't make the stronger one immune (at best they're resistant)
3. The majority of Hive are on similar levels, it's not one big hierarchy
4. The weakest among the Hive very much do not have 4-D hax galore
Click to expand...
Nice ! Btw in what warpriest mission is the sword logics ability shown ? I forgot what it was and what’re his abilities ? He’s fairly ambiguous kinda like Crota
 
All non-Lucent Hive use the sword logic, it's the basis of their civilization. His abilities are on his page, though it's not entirely up to date.
 
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