"Demon God" Demigra 5D Upgrade

[Astral1223]

Here are some things I have to mention before I go into my reasoning as to why I believe Demigra should be upgraded to 5D, and the hypocrisy and bias of this Wiki when it comes to Dragon Ball:

1. I am not, in any way, claiming that Demigra has irrelevant, immeasurable, or infinite speed. The scans mentioned are used as an example of the hypocrisy of this Wiki. This will make more sense as you read this thread.

2. Whether Demigra is canon to the story or not isn't relevant, as I am only discussing Xenoverse and Xenoverse's depiction of strength.

Now, onto my reasoning as to why he should be upgraded to 5D:

Towards the end of Xenoverse. Demigra sates that after he destroys "everything" (Time and space), he will create a new history entirely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxsByYjsUQk 1,03:37

Demigra succeeds; and erases all of time and space: https://j.gifs.com/BBMgA2.gif

Mirai Warrior survives time being erased, and is able to casually move within, and perceive erased Space-Time: https://j.gifs.com/L9pgOp.gif

He then proceedes to pick up the time scroll, and view the events leading up to Demigra erasing space-time, and then travels back in order to prevent that history: https://j.gifs.com/2kpRPj.gif

Clearly, Mirai Warrior is scaled near the strength and speed of Demigra; They both also logically exist on the same Dimension. This should safely put Demigra and characters of his level or higher at 5D, as Mirai Warrior was able to exist independently and above the 3rd and 4th dimension. Only in Xenoverse of course.

If you've ever read Jojo before, or even been on this site for awhile, then you'd likely know of the Gold Experience Requiem(GER). Giorno Giovanna's stand. GER's most impressive speed feat by far was moving in erased Space-Time: https://www.loungeforums.com/i/embe...ter.me%2F13525%2F15747002%2F8826202_13525.jpg This Wiki has GER listed as infinite speed due to this feat: https://snag.gy/Of8FKu.jpg Demigra is only listed as Massively FTL+ https://snag.gy/ylX5OY.jpg However, as I already proved, Mirai Warrior, who's scaled near him, achieved the same exact feat as GER.

Am I saying that Mirai Warrior or Demigra are Infinite speed? No.

Being 5-Dimensional doesn't automatically mean you have irrelevant, immeasurable, or infinite speed, even approved articles on this site state this; My primary points are that the individuals on this wiki practice double standards, particularly with series' they are bias against. This is a prime example of this fact, and past bias against Dragon Ball as a whole supports this as well. In short, if you legitimately have GER at infinite speed, then you should have Demigra and anyone near his level at infinite speed in Xenoverse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That doesn't nearly constitute 5-D. Every tier 2 and their mother can erase space time. Plus, he's only tier 2 with prep.

 

[Reppuzan]

Don't want to burst your bubble, but you don't have to be 5-D to have infinite speed, otherwise we'd have 5-D Zoom. In addition, even if your reasoning is solid, this would imply that all of the top-tiers in Xenoverse (such as Beerus, who casually stomped Demigra's base form) would have infinite speed, which would be a blatant outlier for the series, which means that all of the fights earlier would be a major source of PIS.

That said, I don't know enough about Xenoverse or Dragon Ball in general to make a good call on this, so does anyone else want to pipe in?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

To have 5-D level of AP, you have to be able to destroy beyond an infinite number of simple universes.

Demigra isn't even implied to destroy an infinite number of them. In fact, the number is unknown.

The Mirai Warrior also only survives because of Tokitoki.

 

[CuriousWatcher]

There was a discussion about all this when Demigra's profile was created. here. There is also the fact that he was going to hide in the crack while waiting for the Vault to be destroyed.

However, note that erasing all space-time feat is not a 5-D feat. 5-D is for chareacters who can destroy a consequent 5-D construct. This is a Low 2-C feat unless it involves, of course, destroying multiple timelines.

 

[ZeoParadox]

.

 

[Astral1223]

That doesn't nearly constitute 5-D. Every tier 2 and their mother can erase space time. Plus, he's only tier 2 with prep.

I never said Demigra was S5D because he was able to erase sapce-time. I said that Mirai Warrior was able to move within a place independently from space-time, meaning he was likely above it. As if he existed inside of Space-time, he would have been erased. Mirai Warrior => Demigra, so it applies to him as well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I never said Demigra was S5D because he was able to erase sapce-time. I said that Mirai Warrior was able to move within a place independently from space-time, meaning he was likely above it. As if he existed inside of Space-time, he would have been erased. Mirai Warrior => Demigra, so it applies to him as well.

Transcending basic space-time is a 4-D feat, not a 5-D feat. You do not need to be 5-D to exist independently from another 4-D construct. This is why Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, and Arceus are not 5-D.

 

[Astral1223]

Don't want to burst your bubble, but you don't have to be 5-D to have infinite speed, otherwise we'd have 5-D Zoom. In addition, even if your reasoning is solid, this would imply that all of the top-tiers in Xenoverse (such as Beerus, who casually stomped Demigra's base form) would have infinite speed, which would be a blatant outlier for the series, which means that all of the fights earlier would be a major source of PIS.That said, I don't know enough about Xenoverse or Dragon Ball in general to make a good call on this, so does anyone else want to pipe in?

I never said you needed to be 5-D in order to have infinite speed. I am saying that according to this Wiki, GER has infinite speed for the reason of moving in erased time, which is what the Mirai Warrior also did. Now, I don't believe that Mirai Warrior has infinite speed, nor do I believe GER has it. Being 5D or moving in "Erased time" shouldn't automatically grant you infinite speed. Also, both GER and Mirai Warrior were still shown to move within the pregression of time, and outside of it. Clearly, they still abide by time, but that can exist above it if needed.

This would not imply that, as again, being 5D doesn't automatically grant you infinite speed in most verses. Even then, if its outlier for Dragon Ball, then its an outlier for Jojo as well. As GER has no other feats near that area from what I recall. Which would mean that hsi profile should be downgraded to MFTL+, which is fine by me.

 

[Astral1223]

To have 5-D level of AP, you have to be able to destroy beyond an infinite number of simple universes.
Demigra isn't even implied to destroy an infinite number of them. In fact, the number is unknown.

The Mirai Warrior also only survives because of Tokitoki.

I never said he had 5-D AP, I said he would have to exist on a dimension higher than the 4th (Which would be the 5th), due to Mirai Warrior being able to move and percieve while space and time were non-existent.

I could in theory argue that he could, and did. After all the timelines in Xenoverse were stated infinite. However, I personally don't believe this, so I won't argue it.


All I am saying is that Demigra has to exist on the 5th Dimension and pointing out the hypocrisy of people here. Nothing more.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Existing as a 5-D being makes you 5-D, and the feat isn't a 5-D one to begin with. It's at best, a speed feat to immesurable, and even then, Tokitoki helped him survive.

 

[Astral1223]

There was a discussion about all this when Demigra's profile was created. here. There is also the fact that he was going to hide in the crack while waiting for the Vault to be destroyed.
However, note that erasing all space-time feat is not a 5-D feat. 5-D is for chareacters who can destroy a consequent 5-D construct. This is a Low 2-C feat unless it involves, of course, destroying multiple timelines.

Demigra hid in the crack, Mirai Warrior did not, He tanked the destruction while knocked out, when his Ki would be completely down. He wasn't shielded by anyone as everyone else other than Demigra, Beerus, and Whis had been erased.

I never said erasing space-time was 5D, I said that moving independently from space-time in a void where time and space are non-existent, should mean that you should have a higher-dimensional existence. As if he did exist on the 3rd or 4th dimension, he would have been erased, or if he did somehow manage to survive, he would be unable to move within erased space-time.

 

[Astral1223]

I never said Demigra was S5D because he was able to erase sapce-time. I said that Mirai Warrior was able to move within a place independently from space-time, meaning he was likely above it. As if he existed inside of Space-time, he would have been erased. Mirai Warrior => Demigra, so it applies to him as well.

Transcending basic space-time is a 4-D feat, not a 5-D feat. You do not need to be 5-D to exist independently from another 4-D construct. This is why Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, and Arceus are not 5-D.

Huh? Transcending space(The 3rd dimension) and time(The 4th dimension) would clearly place you at the 5th dimension. There's no 4.5 dimension, Lmao. And if you were still 4-D, you wouldn't be transending the 4th dimension, you'd still exist within it. Lol

 

[Astral1223]

Existing as a 5-D being makes you 5-D, and the feat isn't a 5-D one to begin with. It's at best, a speed feat to immesurable, and even then, Tokitoki helped him survive.

Of course. Lol, it doesn't mean you have 5-D AP, However. Being of a higher dimension doesn't automatically give you the DC that requires you to be on that dimension. It's like if I became 5D, I wouldn't automatically be Multiversal because of it. Toki-Toki didn't help him survive, he was literally knocked out and even looked back on the scene himself and saw himself as time was being erased. Lmao

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Whoops. I meant high 3-A . Also, I was referring to what AtAI stated.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Whoops again. I meant high 2-A. And yes it does. Imagine it as saying that there's some 3-D being with the same AP as a square. Same concept. If they were 5-D, they'd have to have high 2-A AP

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Huh? Transcending space(The 3rd dimension) and time(The 4th dimension) would clearly place you at the 5th dimension. There's no 4.5 dimension, Lmao. And if you were still 4-D, you wouldn't be transending the 4th dimension, you'd still exist within it. Lol

Except no, that's not how it works. Transcending the space-time of one universe does not make you 5-D. It means you can exist independently from the space-time of that universe, which only requires you also be 4-D or possess 4-D power. Two 4-D constructs can exist independently from each other.

If transcending one universe's space-time made you 5-D, literally every Tier 2 character beyond Low 2-C would just jump straight to High 2-A.

 

[Sparky_"Dante"_Marky1234]

I see people arguing about the entire DC argument. While it isn't what the topic was on, Beerus planned to survive the Multiverses destruction in his sleep if I recall. And Demigra was confident he could take on Beerus in the unused sound clips.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I actually took it more as he didn't care if he was destroyed because he knew the Future Warrior would handle it.

 

[Astral1223]

Huh? Transcending space(The 3rd dimension) and time(The 4th dimension) would clearly place you at the 5th dimension. There's no 4.5 dimension, Lmao. And if you were still 4-D, you wouldn't be transending the 4th dimension, you'd still exist within it. Lol

Except no, that's not how it works. Transcending the space-time of one universe does not make you 5-D. It means you can exist independently from the space-time of that universe, which only requires you also be 4-D or possess 4-D power. Two 4-D constructs can exist independently from each other.
If transcending one universe's space-time made you 5-D, literally every Tier 2 character beyond Low 2-C would just jump straight to High 2-A.

Eh, it's not exactly the space-time of a single Universe. Mirai Warrior was able to transcend the space-time of a Multiverse. As in Xenoverse, The Dragon Ball Universe consists of at least a thousand Universes in the form of timelines.The game states it has infinite timelines, but I personally don't believe that. Not only that, but Mirai Warrior still existed inside of space-time as he interacted with objects within it, interacted with it etc, but was able to transcend it as space-time was being erased. He's not independent from Space-time in the sense that he can exist on the side of it or something, he should exist above it, dimensionally.

 

[Astral1223]

Also, I would appreciate it if anyone addressed my point about GER and why placing him at infinite speed is extremely hypocritical.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Eh, it's not exactly the space-time of a single Universe. Mirai Warrior was able to transcend the space-time of a Multiverse. As in Xenoverse, The Dragon Ball Universe consists of at least a thousand Universes in the form of timelines.The game states it has infinite timelines, but I personally don't believe that. Not only that, but Mirai Warrior still existed inside of space-time as he interacted with objects within it, interacted with it etc, but was able to transcend it as space-time was being erased. He's not independent from Space-time in the sense that he can exist on the side of it or something, he should exist above it, dimensionally.

The Mirai Warrior did not transcend the space-time of a multiverse, though. They were saved by Tokitoki, who controls time on a multiversal scale.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

On a related note, should she (Tokitoki) have a profile?

Also, to oblige the OP, we should discuss GER specifically and his connection to the comparison. It would behoove us to address everything

 

[Astral1223]

Eh, it's not exactly the space-time of a single Universe. Mirai Warrior was able to transcend the space-time of a Multiverse. As in Xenoverse, The Dragon Ball Universe consists of at least a thousand Universes in the form of timelines.The game states it has infinite timelines, but I personally don't believe that. Not only that, but Mirai Warrior still existed inside of space-time as he interacted with objects within it, interacted with it etc, but was able to transcend it as space-time was being erased. He's not independent from Space-time in the sense that he can exist on the side of it or something, he should exist above it, dimensionally.

The Mirai Warrior did not transcend the space-time of a multiverse, though. They were saved by Tokitoki, who controls time on a multiversal scale.

He transcended the space-time of the Dragon Ball Macroverse, which in Xenoverses' continuity would be a Multiverse in itself, as it contains over 1000 timelines, each of which should be Universes. I don't recall Mirai Warrior being saved by TokiToki, even if he was, after time had been erased he was still able to move and percieve within it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He transcended the space-time of the Dragon Ball Macroverse, which in Xenoverses' continuity would be a Multiverse in itself, as it contains over 1000 timelines, each of which should be Universes. I don't recall Mirai Warrior being saved by TokiToki, even if he was, after time ahd been erased he was still able to move and percieve within it.

The moment you quote in the OP is when they're saved by Tokitoki, who is explicitly the reason they were able to go back in time and get a do over before Demigra destroyed everything. The Mirai Warrior didn't do any of that on their own. In fact, they were about to die.

 

[Astral1223]

On a related note, should she (Tokitoki) have a profile?
Also, to oblige the OP, we should discuss GER specifically and his connection to the comparison. It would behoove us to address everything

Thank you. That's what I mostly care about, Tbh.

 

[Astral1223]

He transcended the space-time of the Dragon Ball Macroverse, which in Xenoverses' continuity would be a Multiverse in itself, as it contains over 1000 timelines, each of which should be Universes. I don't recall Mirai Warrior being saved by TokiToki, even if he was, after time ahd been erased he was still able to move and percieve within it.

The moment you quote in the OP is when they're saved by Tokitoki, who is explicitly the reason they were able to go back in time and get a do over before Demigra destroyed everything. The Mirai Warrior didn't do any of that on their own. In fact, they were about to die.

For the sake of argument, let's say he did save them. It's still not regardless; as after Mirai Warrior woke up, not only was TokiToki no where to be found, he was still also able to exist above the non-existent space-time that Demigra was responsible for without any help from TokiToki, as again, he was nowhere to be found. Lol

 

[Antvasima]

Given the consistently disrespectful and provocative tone of the OP, I am starting to think that he is simply trolling, and should be blocked for a long time.

GER was upgraded to infinite speed in consultation with DarkLK, and does not have any contradictions for the feat that I know of.

For Xenoverse on the other hand, we can go by consistency.

We also do not have some kind of "hypocritical" agenda. Different people simply try their best to evaluate different characters on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

For the sake of argument, let's say he did save them. It's still not regardless; as after Mirai Warrior woke up, not only was TokiToki no where to be found, he was still also able to exist above the non-existent space-time that Demigra was responsible for without any help from TokiToki, as again, he was nowhere to be found. Lol

You literally hear Tokitoki's voice as the warrior picks up the scroll. The implications are incredibly obvious, especially since it sends them back in time. I am beginning to think you did not actually play through the game, or are just trolling. Especially since the Mirai warrior is sent back in time on that particular timeline, which would not be possible if that timeline had already ceased to exist.

 

[ZeoParadox]

Wait, did he get banned? It's the middle of a debate. I was just talking to him.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I blocked him for disrespectful trolling. Indulging his attempts to waste our time seems pointless.

 

[ZeoParadox]

Okay than. But it kinda sucks that he can't respond, it was amusing.

 

[ZeoParadox]

Okay I can definitely agree he isn't 5D. That's just ********. But I didn't get to see you guys argue over the TP moving in erased space-time thing. So....does anyone have a debunk for it. Or should it just be considered an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

It probably has to be considered as an illogical inconsistency.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Do you mean after the warrior passes out? Because that was only done with Tokitoki's help, and time still existed, which is how the warrior travelled back, in the first place.

 

[ZeoParadox]

Do you mean after the warrior passes out? Because that was only done with Tokitoki's help, and time still existed, which is how the warrior travelled back, in the first place.

But wasn't the timeline in the scroll? Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But wasn't the timeline in the scroll? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, it was, and it was not destroyed, which it would have been had Demigra succeeded.

 

[Akuto_Sai12]

Even tho he's blocked and 5-D demigra is wack I agree that infinite/immeasurable speed isn't always the case for higher dimensional let alone chars who resist time manipulation...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's also fully possible in fiction to have higher dimensional power without actually being higher dimensional.

 

[Akuto_Sai12]

Battle show writers aren't consistent at all tbh But yeah that's true too