Deltarune: More P&A, Knight and Titan stuff (Finished)

[LittleGuy99]

Premise
More and more stuff for Deltarune
One thing before we begin is that this Light World Susie speed calc has been accepted, it should be added to the profiles (102.012289855 m/s, or Subsonic)

Important: Here used to be a section for intangible attacks and multipliers for some abilities, all of that was removed to be discussed in another CRT. Most of the discussions in this thread were about those things, so if you're staff you don't need to read every page now.

Section 1 (General):​

Spoiler: Powers and Abilities

Kris CH1: Limited Invulnerability (When their SOUL is damaged, it and their body become invulnerable for a few seconds, and with Pirouette, the time of Invulnerability is reduced)

Delta Warriors: Limited Invulnerability (When their SOULs are damaged, it and their bodies become invulnerable for a few seconds, and with Pirouette, the time of Invulnerability is reduced)

Susie CH1 | Noelle DW: Limited Invulnerability (Should be same as Kris, whose SOUL and body becomes invulnerable for a few seconds when damaged)

Ralsei CH1: Limited Invulnerability (When his body is damaged in combat, he becomes invulnerable for a few seconds)

Kris CH1: Enhanced Senses (Smell; Has the ability to distinguish any type of smell, even some strange or illogical ones)

Ralsei CH1: Holy Manipulation (With Heal Prayer. A heavenly light appears and restores a little HP. With Reviver in Chapter 4. Ralsei makes a heavenly light appear, along with some feathers and a small Ralsei with a halo and angel wings)

Noelle DW: Holy Manipulation (With Heal Prayer. A heavenly light appears and restores a little HP)

King: Social Influencing (Social Position & Instigating Fear; Most of the inhabitants of Card Kingdom are afraid of him. They are afraid to even speak to him, feeling compelled to only fight. Described as "Cruel and terrifying Monarcke" by Rouxls Kaard. Even after his defeat, some are still afraid of him)

Lancer: Breaking the Fourth Wall (Non-Combat-Applicable; He has knowledge of the game controls and the menu. Can manipulate the battle text to make it vertical)

King: Breaking the Fourth Wall & Limited Forcefield Creation (Combat-Applicable; With his chain of justice, he can drag the Bullet Board, put spikes inside it, create a square barrier for it and the SOUL, and make it move in any direction he pleases)

Noelle DW: Durability Negation (Via IceShock and SnowGrave. These attacks, which freezes the body and attacks the SOUL, do the same damage regardless of the opponent's durability, not like other attacks like Rude Buster. Defeating Spamton NEO despite his high durability, which even LV2 Kris couldn't overcome)

Delta Warriors CH2 + Spamton Base: Minor Poison Manipulation (Via S.POISON. Can drain 60 HP in a short time)

Delta Warriors CH2: Limited Damage Reduction (With armor like the Dealmaker, Frayed Bowtie, and the Mannequin, the damage received from Puppet/Cat attacks is reduced by varying percentages. In short, damage from attacks by Puppet and Cats like characters is reduced)

Spamton Base: Limited Damage Reduction (With armor like the Dealmaker and the Frayed Bowtie, the damage received from Puppet/Cat attacks is reduced by varying percentages. In short, damage from attacks by Puppet and Cats like characters is reduced)

Jevil: Statistics Amplification & Pseudo-Energy Manipulation (By transforming into the Jevilstail or the Devilsknife, it can increase the strength, defense, or magic of the user. Devilsknife can reduce the TP cost of the Rude Buster by 10%)

Spamton Base: Statistics Amplification & Statistics Reduction (By transforming into the Dealmaker or the Puppet Scarf, it can increase the strength, defense, or magic of the user. Puppet Scarf specifically reduces magic and consequently healing magic in exchange for strength. "A scarf made of strange strings. For those that abandon healing." - Description. "If I have to fight..." When equipping to Ralsei)

The Original Starwalker: Likely Teleportation (Unlike Lancer and Rouxls Kaard, who come out of the inventory in the conventional way, Starwalker can simply appear outside without any indication of how, mysteriously appearing in various locations)

Susie CH1-3:
Attack Potency: Multi-City Block level+ with Rude/Red Buster and Morale Boost (With Rude/Red Buster. Deals far more damage than her standard attacks. Forced Queen and Spamton NEO to retreat using a Rude Buster. With Morale Boost. Kris can boost Susie's morale by commenting that she is really dangerous and strong, increasing her strength in the process, something she can likely achieve on her own by motivating herself)

CH4: higher with Rude Buster and Morale Boost (Forced the Roaring Knight to dodge with a few Rude Busters), far higher with Red/Dual Buster (With DualBuster. She can do massive damage on par with the Old Man to the Titan. Red Buster should be comparable. Rude Buster doesn't do this much damage)

Kris CH1-3:
Rage Power (After finishing the Sword Route and obtaining the Shadow Mantle, Kris reveals a hidden strength that they use against Tenna for revealing at least some information. Dealing more damage than Susie's Rude Buster. Kris usually deal noticeably less damage to The Roaring Knight than Susie or Ralsei, but when the two are swooned Kris starts dealing more damage than Susie)

Attack Potency: far higher with Rage Power (After finishing the Sword Route and obtaining the Shadow Mantle, Kris reveals a hidden strength that they use against Tenna for revealing at least some information. Dealing more damage than Susie's Rude Buster. Kris usually deal noticeably less damage to The Roaring Knight than Susie or Ralsei, but when the two are swooned Kris starts dealing more damage than Susie)

Speed: higher with HoldBreath (By holding their breath for a moment, their heartbeat quickens and now their SOUL can move faster, and even faster in extreme situations like in the final attack of the Knight)

CH4: higher with HoldBreath and ScaredyCat (Seems faster than HoldBreath. Can greatly increase the speed of their SOUL for one turn but their defense decreases too)

Susie CH3: Minor Illusion Creation (With Cheat. Susie is able to create drawings that can float in the air. Don't seem interactable)

Kris CH3: Summoning (Can store a Pipis in their inventory and can also eat it to recover HP)

Susie CH3: Supernatural Willpower (She is able to continue fighting even after being injured by The Roaring Knight. After receiving the Knight's most powerful attack up to that point, unlike Ralsei and Kris, she still has enough energy to move her arm and get up to immediately run after it)

Kris CH3: Immersion (Via the Odd Controller. Can transfer their SOUL into a game and make it control an avatar just like with HERO_SWORD)
Standard Equipment: Odd Controller: A gamepad no one wanted to use. The buttons are an ugly pink and yellow. Allows use of a game console.

More information about their Law Manipulation:
Rouxls Kaard: Law Manipulation & Power Nullification (With the Rules Card. Can change the rules of the battle to whatever he wants. He can force his enemies to only ACT and not Fight, use Magic, use Items, or use Mercy)

Tenna: Law Manipulation & Power Nullification (With his contracts he can force his enemies to only ACT and not Fight, use Magic, use Items, or use Mercy. It is not necessary for their opponents to sign the contract since the Delta Warriors were affected by it even though they were never seen signing anything. This is because Tenna's contracts are actually Rouxls Kaard Rule Cards, which he exchanges for his debit card, so Tenna has the ability to change the rules of the fight to whatever he wants. To clarify: Tenna tried to use his contracts with the Pippins, but it didn't work because what he was holding weren't contracts)

Note: The effect of the Rules Card should only disappear when the final result is achieved, that is, when the winner is determined and the battle ends. Or simply by being deactivated with the same rule cards.

Tenna: Summoning (Can summon all of his employees under his contract, such as the Shadowguys, Zappers, Pippins, Shuttahs, Lanino and Elnina, Watercoolers, "Mike" and likely Ribbicks)

The Roaring Knight + Lightners:
Resistance to: Likely Absolute Zero, Ice Manipulation & Heat Manipulation (Comparable to the Delta Warriors who can withstand being at 999F/-999F in the battle with Lanino and Elnina)

Tenna:
Resistance to: Absolute Zero, Ice Manipulation & Heat Manipulation (Can withstand being at 999F/-999F in the battle with Lanino and Elnina)

Spamton Base + Jevil:
Resistance to: Absolute Zero, Ice Manipulation & Heat Manipulation (Present as an item in the fight with Lanino and Elnina, can withstand being at 999F/-999F in the battle with Lanino and Elnina)

Weather Duo: Homing Attack (Their magic attacks are capable of tracking a target)

Kris | Susie | Ralsei CH4:
Remove the "Possibly" since it is accepted that the Titan Spawn is incorporeal and Miss Mizzle is intangible
Non-Physical Interaction (Can deal damage to a Mizzle/Miss Mizzle which is a being made of water and a Titan Spawn which is a being made of pure darkness which can act similar to smoke of some kind. Guei is stated to be a spirit and although it is also mentioned that it is not a "real" ghost per se, this is probably just because it is clarifying that it is not a dead person)

Kris | Susie | Ralsei CH4: Enhanced Senses (Hearing; Can use echolocation to navigate in complete darkness, and by listening carefully can dodge incoming attacks)

Ralsei CH4: Further Limited Creation (Can create toothpaste)

Susie Light World:
Optional Equipment: Kris's Knife: Kris's personal knife. Kris gave it to her in Chapter 4.

Darkners:
Option 1: 2 (@Imaginym, @Reiner04 Both Neutral with Self-Sustenance)
For all the Darkners because they are basically the same

Inorganic Physiology (Type 1) & Self-Sustenance (Types 1 & 2; As a Darkner who is a [insert object] in the Light World, he/she/they should not have the need to eat or breathe)
Immunity to: SOUL Manipulation (Unlike Lightners, who are proven to possess SOULs, Darkners are merely objects brought to life by Dark Fountains. These objects range from cards, television channels to computers and apps, which should not possess SOULs. It is implied that the Lightners' SOULs are the source of their will, the will and determination they use to create Dark Fountains, something the Darkners lack. Lightners like Kris still retain some will even without their SOUL)

Option 2: 0
Only for Darkners who are clearly inorganic, like the inhabitants of the Cyber World and other specific ones, by adding this to the profiles I will be more specific for each case

Inorganic Physiology (Type 1) & Self-Sustenance (Types 1 & 2; As a Darkner who is a [insert object] in the Light World, he/she/they should not have the need to eat or breathe)
Immunity to: Possibly SOUL Manipulation (Unlike Lightners, who are proven to possess SOULs, Darkners are merely objects brought to life by Dark Fountains. These objects range from cards, television channels to computers and apps, which should not possess SOULs. It is implied that the Lightners' SOULs are the source of their will, the will and determination they use to create Dark Fountains, something the Darkners lack. Lightners like Kris still retain some will even without their SOUL)

Lightners (Light World Key): Limited Summoning (Like The Roaring Knight, all Lightners can summon a Titan by creating a Dark Fountain within a Dark World)

Lightners (Light World Key): Limited Smoke Manipulation (The darkness that consumes the rooms is described as smoke)

Adding more information for this:
Kris LW: Likely Time Manipulation, Immortality & Healing (Types 4 & 8; Through the Player who can resurrect them through the Save System and The Voice that gives the latter the option to load the file, even going back to before just starting a battle with no save point required. Kris can see and interact with the Save Points. Can use the Player's SAVE File to re-try events from the start, even at death. This Save Points always appearing in the places where they feel something in particular and healing them completely "Any pain you may have had melted away...". In the Light World they have a save file with their name and they recognize the save point outside the Dark World "And you knew what it was.")
No Acausality tho

Delta Warriors:
Note: Items that can only be used by one and no more team members: Kris's Knife, Wristwatch/Silver Watch, Jevilstail, Dealmaker, Shadow Mantle, Dice Brace, Iron Shackle, Mannequin, Chain Mail, Spike Band, Tension Bow, Blue Ribbon, Tenna Tie, Mystic Band, PrincessRBN, Gold Widow.

-Maus & Kris-

Spoiler

Maus:
Transformation & Duplication (Can transform into a hand, into a mice-shaped shield, and can duplicate itself and transform into two shoes)
Healing & Limited Creation (Can create fruits like apples and bananas which can heal HP. When it pets its allies, it can heal their HP)

Lifting Strength: Athletic Human with Transformation (With its hand transformation. Can carry the Mikes with ease, even the tallest one)
Durability: far higher with Transformation (With its mice-shaped shield transformation. The Mikes' attacks don't harm it)
Range: Several Meters with Transformation (With its hand transformation. Can reach and grab things they normally couldn't)

Kris CH4:
Lifting Strength: Athletic Human with the Maus Cursor (Can carry the Mikes with ease, even the tallest one)
Range: Several Meters with the Maus Cursor (Can reach and grab things they normally couldn't)

Optional Equipment: One or two Maus willing to help Kris.

Notable Attacks/Techniques:

• Maus Cursor: Kris can use one or two Maus as extendable hands that canreach and grab things they normally couldn't. These can carry and drag people like the Mikes. They can heal Kris by creating food or just by petting them. Can transform into mice-shaped shields that protect Kris's SOUL and are unaffected by attacks like those from the Mikes. And they can duplicate themselves and transform into two shoes.

-The Player Deltarune Key- (Profile)

Spoiler

Damage Transferal (Transfers the damage they receives to their vessel and allies, even things like the Thrash Machine)
Power Bestowal (In Chapters 1 & 2 can power up Susie and Ralsei's magic into new forms of themselves: Red Buster and Dual Heal. In Chapter 4 shines on Susie and the Old Man, boosting their DualBuster, enough so that Susie's damage is on par with Gerson's)
Light Manipulation & Sealing (Same as Kris)
Telepathy (Capable of reading the minds of the characters in game, a good example being with Noelle in the Snowgrave Route)
Possession (Whoever is the vessel for their SOUL is forced to do as they command, but they can cause hesitation if heavily opposed to what they are being forced to do. Can achieve complete possession by really forcing their choices upon their vessel)
Flight (True flight; Can float around when they are not inside a vessel)
Immersion (Via the Odd Controller. Can transfer themselves into a game and control an avatar just like with HERO_SWORD)

-Notable Attacks/Techniques-

Spoiler

Kris:

• Check: Kris analyzes the target's combatstatistics, receives some information about their life, their mood, whattheyare, weaknesses, sometips and can obtain a straightforward strategy.
• HoldBreath: Kris held their breath, their heartbeat quickened and the SOUL now moves faster, and even faster in extreme situations like in the final attack of the Knight.

Ralsei:

• Pacify: A method used by Ralsei to peacefully end battles against tired enemies by putting them to sleep. Can put to sleep multiple opponents at the same time and even works on "tired" machines causing them to stop working.
• Heal Prayer: Ralsei prays and uses a spell to heal himself and his allies. Can use it constantly in cutscenes without gathering TP first. And he can even heal all three at the same time although it shouldn't be as powerful as Dual Heal.
• Reviver: A small Ralsei with a halo and wings appears to heal one of his allies, removing the Down state.

Susie:

• Morale Boost: Susie can increase her own strength just by boosting her morale.
• Shield Ax: Susie can block projectiles/bullets with her axe. By doing so, she also gains some TP.
• Wake Up: Susie hits her ally removing the Down state.

Rouxls Kaard:

• Rules Card: Rouxls can change the rules of the battle to whatever he wants with his rule cards. He can force his enemies to only ACT and not Fight, use Magic, use Items, or use Mercy.

Lightners:

• Titan Summoning: Like The Roaring Knight, all Lightners can summon a Titan by creating a Dark Fountain within a Dark World.

-Shop Guys-

Spoiler

Just like in Undertale where characters like Gerson Boom and Muffet have in their equipment the items that they themselves sell, Spamton and Gerson DR should be able to do the same.

-Spamton G. Spamton-
Optional Equipment: Shop items and others:

• KeyGen: A shady-looking program that can open certain doors.
• S.POISON: A strange concoction made of colorful squares. It does 20 damage in the overworld and heals 40 HP in battle with the effect of slowly draining 60 HP afterwards. Indefinite quantity.
• Broken Sword: A rejected sword cut into 2 pieces. It is not equipable and gives no AT. Indefinite quantity.
• Frayed Bowtie: An old bowtie. It gives +1 AT, +1 DF and +1 Magic, and drops damage received from Puppet/Cat attacks by 15%. Indefinite quantity.
• ThornRing: A ring bought from Spamton in the Weird Route that causes Noelle continuous pain in exchange for a huge amount of power and it has a "Trance" effect. It gives +14 AT, +12 Magic, drains wearer's HP to 1/3 of Max during encounters, reduces cost of ice spells by half. Strongest weapon available in Chapter 2.

-Old Man-
Optional Equipment: Shop Items:

• Rhapsotea: A smooth, silvery drink. It sounds like whispered singing as it's poured. It heals 115 HP. Indefinite quantity.
• Scarlixir: A red brew with a sickeningly fruity taste. It heals 160 HP. Indefinite quantity.
• Waferguard: Although it looks brittle, it contains a magical energy that blunts damage on impact. It gives +4 DF. Indefinite quantity.
• Scarf Mark: A thin scarf with a deep sheen. Holy writing has been pressed into it, imbuing it with magic. It gives +4 AT, +1 DF and +1 Magic. Indefinite quantity.

-Intelligence-

Spoiler

Kris:
Gifted Combatant (In combat they are capable of avoiding projectiles from multiple opponents at once, and even dodge bullet hell attacks from enemies as formidable as Jevil, Spamton NEO, The Roaring Knight and the Titan. Tenna comments on Kris's ability to dodge and not take damage. During the battle with The Roaring Knight, Kris fakes a cough to signal that neither they nor their allies were harmed, Comparable to Susie, who can beat Gerson on her first try. Their sword attacks always land on their targets, regardless of their agility. They learned how to fight shortly after they entered the Dark World, to the point of impressing Ralsei, who stated that Kris is a natural and great at attacking. Can formulate strategies to defeat all kinds of enemies peacefully and violently. Kris has an incredible sense of equilibrium, being able to balance a giant orb of trash on their head. They can swing their blade with enough dexterity and precision to shave Jigsaw Joe without hurting him, despite being quite fragile. They can use their SOUL to locate one of their allies in complete darkness. To avoid getting the Playstation achievements, we must follow requirements such as not taking damage or dying. These achievements are canon since The Voice at the end of Chapter 4 comments on them)

Susie:
At most Above Average (Despite not having conventional knowledge in school subjects, she has proven to be efficient in other areas. She managed to decipher the solution to a puzzle before Berdly, who is the second smartest student in the class. She managed to learn a new healing spell in a short time thanks to Ralsei, a spell that she began to train on her own, progressing from UltraHeal in Chapter 3, to BetterHeal in Chapter 4, managing to fully master it in two days and use it together with Ralsei. In some cases, she comes up with ideas to defeat enemies before Kris and Ralsei, figuring out how to defeat K. Round faster, thinking of an alternative way to win against Sweet Cap'n Cakes, and coming up with an idea to enter the Titan and have Kris seal it away), Gifted Combatant (In combat she is capable of avoiding projectiles from multiple opponents at once, and even dodge bullet hell attacks from enemies as formidable as Jevil, Spamton NEO, The Roaring Knight and the Titan. Tenna comments on Susie's ability to dodge and not take damage. During the battle with The Roaring Knight, Kris fakes a cough to signal that neither they nor their allies were harmed, She is capable of defeating Gerson on her first try. Her axe attacks always land on her targets, regardless of their agility. She learned how to fight shortly after they entered the Dark World, defeating a group of Jigsawry with ease. Can formulate strategies to defeat all kinds of enemies peacefully and violently, having unconventional ideas to defeat K. Round, Sweet Cap'n Cakes and the Titan. She can swing her axe with enough dexterity and precision to shave the Old Man without hurting him. To avoid getting the Playstation achievements, we must follow requirements such as not taking damage or dying. These achievements are canon since The Voice at the end of Chapter 4 comments on them)

Ralsei:
Above Average (He possesses extensive knowledge of the rules of the Dark Worlds, knowing everything about the Darkners, battles, everything the Prophecy says will happen, and even shows an apparent understanding of the Light World as well. He knows which items everyone can use, knows about the Save System, The Player controls and menu, and apparently about the Weird Route. Additionally, he is highly skilled in magic, with the ability to teach Susie a new spell despite her lack of familiarity with that specific form of magic), Gifted Combatant (In combat he is capable of avoiding projectiles from multiple opponents at once, and even dodge bullet hell attacks from enemies as formidable as Jevil, Spamton NEO, The Roaring Knight and the Titan. Tenna comments on Ralsei's ability to dodge and not take damage. During the battle with The Roaring Knight, Kris fakes a cough to signal that neither they nor their allies were harmed, Comparable to Susie, who can beat Gerson on her first try. His scarf attacks always land on his targets, regardless of their agility. He knows everything about the rules of the Dark Worlds, and he knows very well how to fight, being the one who teaches Kris how. Can formulate strategies to defeat all kinds of enemies peacefully and violently, and was the one who came up with the main idea of how to defeat the Titan. Easily defeated Sound of Justice, who was proving to be a problem for Susie and Kris. To avoid getting the Playstation achievements, we must follow requirements such as not taking damage or dying. These achievements are canon since The Voice at the end of Chapter 4 comments on them)

Section 2 (The Roaring Knight):​

I forgot some important things to add to this profile, so here they are

Regen Negation & Limited Invulnerability Negation (Via SWOON. With its normal attacks or with its fast sword attack it can negate the regeneration of its opponents, even if they just faint. Regeneration that ranges from Low to Low-High. Can reduce i-frames with its sword tunnel attack and other attacks)

Spatial Manipulation (Can cut through the moving background and separate it)

Attack Potency: Likely far higher (Seam says in Chapter 2 that the Knight is an impossible opponent to defeat, and The Voice at the beginning of the game and the credits of Chapter 4 says that it's guaranteed the Delta Warriors will lose. Capable of easily defeating the full HP Delta Warriors with a single slash unlike its other attacks. Even when they have equipped the Shadow Mantle which reduces the damage caused by the Knight by 66%)

Notable Attacks/Techniques:

• SWOON: The Knight makes a sword slash so fast and strong that it can defeat the Delta Warriors before they can even react. A slash launched from outside the opponent's current line of sight that can negate their regeneration. If the opponent faints from the Knight's normal attacks, their regeneration will be negated too.

Section 3 (Titan/Titan Spawn and Fear Manipulation):​

This is the profile of the Titan/Titan Spawn (-Sandbox-)
It's practically finished, we just need to talk a little about his Fear Manipulation, which I think makes sense for it to have
Edit: It seems my Titan profile has already been published thanks to this CRT. Now all that remains is to add this ability.

Spoiler: Reasons

Titan:
Fear Manipulation (Fear Inducement - Terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points], which was impeded by the constriction of darkness. Ralsei could barely stay calm when it first hatched. Susie admits she was shaking in fear as it appeared. Described as "The fear of dark, which appears in many forms." and Ralsei describes it more specifically when he explains it to Susie: "It's the fear-of-dark.", "It's the bump-in-the-night." and "It's the shadow of the backside of your mind.")

Titan Spawn:
Fear Manipulation (Fear Inducement - Described as "A shard of fear.", terrified the Delta Warriors to a point they had to gather COURAGE to gain TP [Tension Points], which was impeded by the constriction of darkness. The atmosphere smelled like adrenaline while Kris could hear their own heart and Ralsei seemed terrified before the battle began and inside the battle he tried to stay calm)

Looking at it this way, I would just like to add resistance to these profiles

Delta Warriors CH4:
Resistance to: Fear Manipulation (Titan Spawn has the ability to induce fear, which doesn't seem to truly affect Susie, while Kris and Ralsei can resist it just little when fighting. Later on, Susie is visibly scared by the Titan. Despite this, the Delta Warriors are able to overcome fear by gaining COURAGE, and in the end, together with Gerson, they manage to completely resist the fear)

The Roaring Knight:
Resistance to: Fear Manipulation (Should be immune to the fear that Titan induces and the Knight even laughs and doesn't take the situation seriously before creating it)

Gerson Boom:
Resistance to: Fear Manipulation (Capable of facing the Titan without a shred of fear and even motivating the previously terrified Delta Warriors)

Staff Votes:
Agree: 2 (@Imaginym, @Reiner04)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

“A little bit of this, a little bit of that” ahh CRT
Anyways, I agree

 

[Edutyn]

Agree

 

[Axorandom0]

I am also here (agree)

 

[Ti58]

having their own empty save file in the Dark World that was later overwritten by the Player.

I'm not sure if that's an argument given the fact that it had a time of 0:00

In general, I agree

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’m not gonna properly look through everything as I’m exhausted, but two things I wanted to comment on by skimming through:

even higher without self restraint (After obtaining the Shadow Mantle, Kris reveals a hidden strength that they only uses against Tenna, dealing more damage than Susie's Rude Buster)

Doesn’t Kris also show this in the Knight fight? Usually they deal noticeably less damage to the Knight than Susie or Ralsei, but when the two are swooned Kris starts dealing more damage than Susie.

According to the Deltarune Wiki, Kris will usually deal 50% damage to both Tenna and the Knight. When the specific conditions are met, Kris will deal 300% damage against Tenna, will deal 100% damage to the Knight with one ally swooned, and will deal 200% damage to the Knight when both allies are swooned. I’m not sure if these multipliers will be allowed to be used for scaling, but I think it makes narrative sense for Kris to hold back the same amount against the two but go harder against Tenna than the Knight.

far higher via SWOON (Capable of easily defeating the full HP Delta Warriors with a single slash unlike its other attacks)

Is it accurate to call this attack “SWOON”? That effect applies to all of the Knight’s attacks, so calling a specific move that name seems strange to me.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Doesn’t Kris also show this in the Knight fight? Usually they deal noticeably less damage to the Knight than Susie or Ralsei, but when the two are swooned Kris starts dealing more damage than Susie.

Added

Would it be appropriate to call this attack “SWOON”? That effect applies to all of the Knight’s attacks, so calling a specific move that name seems strange to me.

I prefer to call it "swoon" since that's the most recognizable thing it does, something like "horizontal slash" doesn't sound right to me

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Added

I edited that section to include the exact damage modifiers. I’m 50/50 on whether they should be useable for the profiles or not, but I suppose if Susie’s Morale Boost gets accepted then this could be too.

I prefer to call it "swoon" since that's the most recognizable thing it does, something like "horizontal slash" doesn't sound right to me

That’s fair.

We should call it the Nike Slash

 

[LittleGuy99]

I edited that section to include the exact damage modifiers. I’m 50/50 on whether they should be useable for the profiles or not, but I suppose if Susie’s Morale Boost gets accepted then this could be too.

I'll add it for now

 

[Qurbonboev]

Speed: higher with HoldBreath (By holding their breath for a moment, their heartbeat quickens and now their SOUL can move faster)

CH4: higher with HoldBreath and ScaredyCat (Seems faster than HoldBreath. Can greatly increase the speed of their SOUL for one turn but their defense decreases too)

HoldBreath increases speed by 25%(50% in final attack). ScaredyCat seems to increase speed higher, so I would say it's 50% increase.

Attack Potency: far higher via SWOON (Capable of easily defeating the full HP Delta Warriors with a single slash unlike its other attacks

Knight can oneshot Gang(for whom she upscales) with sword attacks(idk if it's count as "higher" or "far higher"). Gang member with shadow mantle can tank several such attacks. SWOON oneshots even with shadow mantle equipped.

 

[LittleGuy99]

HoldBreath increases speed by 25%(50% in final attack). ScaredyCat seems to increase speed higher, so I would say it's 50% increase.

Knight can oneshot Gang(for whom she upscales) with sword attacks(idk if it's count as "higher" or "far higher"). Gang member with shadow mantle can tank several such attacks. SWOON oneshots even with shadow mantle equipped.

Added

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

agree

 

[SnakesCity]

Agree with everything! Also quite nice to see the stuff about Tenna's law manip that i pointed out in the discussion thread.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree with everything! Also quite nice to see the stuff about Tenna's law manip that i pointed out in the discussion thread.

It was because of you that I add this

 

[OrangeFR]

agree

 

[LittleGuy99]

Bump
I added two new abilities and changed Section 3 of the Titan to add a littlo more information and layered fearhax

 

[StrymULTRA]

Attack Potency: far higher via SWOON (Capable of easily defeating the full HP Delta Warriors with a single slash unlike its other attacks. Even when they have equipped the Shadow Mantle which reduces the damage caused by the Knight by 66%)

Speed: far higher via SWOON (Capable of moving so fast that the Delta Warriors cannot even react to the slash, not knowing where it comes from or where the Knight is)

Agree with everything besides this.

It's simply a display of them not holding back and blitz-one shot us with using more strength, nothing hints at it being a special move.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree with everything besides this.

It's simply a display of them not holding back and blitz-one shot us with using more strength, nothing hints at it being a special move.

Okay, I'll change it to "without self restraint"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay, I'll change it to "without self restraint"

We don't give any "higher" the moment a character stops holding back.

 

[LittleGuy99]

We don't give any "higher" the moment a character stops holding back.

I suppose I'll add statements like in Gerson's profile, which has far higher

 

[LittleGuy99]

I suppose I'll add statements like in Gerson's profile, which has far higher

Done

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Kris CH1: Limited Intangibility (When their SOUL is damaged, it and their body become intangible for a few seconds, and with Pirouette, the time of intangibility is reduced)

Nothing really points to their body going intangible too. And like, any reason not to treat this like every other game with i-frames?
It's not like in UT where there was a character who's whole thing is being able to ignore said i-frames.

Susie CH1-3:
Attack Potency: higher with Morale Boost (Can increase her strength by 50%)

Speed: higher with HoldBreath (By holding their breath for a moment, their heartbeat quickens and now their SOUL can move faster by 25% and 50% like in the final attack of the Knight)

Don’t think we treat exact percentages like this as canon. It's the same logic as us ignoring damage numbers and the such.

Susie CH3: Passive Limited Creation (With Cheat. Susie is able to create drawings that can float in the air)

I’d get it if Toby actually added a cheeky line about them not moving, but without that it just seems like Toby didn't want to redo Kris and Ralsei’s sprites for a single Act lol

Kris CH3: Summoning (Can store a Pipis in their inventory and can also eat it to recover HP)

Don't quite see how it's any different from any of the healing items they have? They already have summoning from CH2 anyway.

Self-Sustenance (Types 1 & 2; As a Darkner who is a [insert object] in the Light World, he/she/they should not have the need to eat or breathe)
Inorganic Physiology (Type 2)
Immunity to: SOUL Manipulation (Unlike Lightners, who are proven to possess SOULs, Darkners are merely objects brought to life by Dark Fountains. These objects range from cards, television channels to computers and apps, which should not possess SOULs. It is implied that the Lightners' SOULs are the source of their will, the will and determination they use to create Dark Fountains, something the Darkners lack. Lightners like Kris still retain some will even without their SOUL)

I mean, Darkners do get hungry and actually take in calories, hell there's a whole cooking mini-game centered around them.
Same deal with breathing, Cap’n mentions it and he's one the more robotic-looking Darkners too.
Honestly even without that stuff, it would've been weird to give them those when they've been shown to get tired and sleep, so already not a 1-to-1 match with their LW object.

I wouldn’t take the SOUL being the “source of our will” as gospel either, especially when the Library book flat-out admits that they don’t actually know its true nature and its other title “font of our compassion” was proven wrong by Kris' actions in the Weird Route.
If anything, I'd take Kris opening a fountain without their SOUL as a confirmation that it's BS.

-Intangible Attacks-
...completely phase through Kris's body, which is not the case with attacks from other enemies)

Well first of all, you've already argued Kris becomes intangible upon getting hit, doesn’t that alone explain this? The attacks that vanish could just be less durable than the ones that stick around (Which is most of them) or maybe they were already about to fade out anyway (Like in the first example) and getting hit just speeds up that process.

I can see some merit to the idea though, since in the overworld scenes where the SOUL pops up, Darkner attacks go right through Kris’ body and only hit the SOUL (See 1, 2, 3) making it a universal rule that Darkners got intangible attacks. But then again, those same attacks also phase right through Susie and Ralsei too, so you could chalk it up to game mechanics. Hard to say for sure.

Section 3 (Titan and Fear Manipulation):​

The ability itself is fine, but the resistance probably isn't, same reason why Undyne and sans don't have it.
Simply fighting someone with an even crippling fear aura, like say Dio or Sukuna, is not enough to net you a resistance.
Susie not appearing to be affected by the Titan Spawn's fear hax can just be chalked up to her not showing it. She does the exact same thing with the Titan itself afterall.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Okay, let's begin

Nothing really points to their body going intangible too. And like, any reason not to treat this like every other game with i-frames?
It's not like in UT where there was a character who's whole thing is being able to ignore said i-frames.

Well first of all, you've already argued Kris becomes intangible upon getting hit, doesn’t that alone explain this? The attacks that vanish could just be less durable than the ones that stick around (Which is most of them) or maybe they were already about to fade out anyway (Like in the first example) and getting hit just speeds up that process.

I can see some merit to the idea though, since in the overworld scenes where the SOUL pops up, Darkner attacks go right through Kris’ body and only hit the SOUL (See 1, 2, 3) making it a universal rule that Darkners got intangible attacks. But then again, those same attacks also phase right through Susie and Ralsei too, so you could chalk it up to game mechanics. Hard to say for sure.

We do not assume that all attacks are intangible, which is why they disappear upon making contact with Kris's body and SOUL. We assume that Kris's SOUL is in their chest during all battles, which is why attacks that pass by are intangible, because they attack the SOUL but do not disappear upon impact with the body

If in a fight an enemy can affect the SOUL's intangibility time, I assume it's canon that it becomes intangible for a few seconds, if it didn't happen in any battle, I wouldn't have included it

In summary: Normal attacks are tangible and damage the SOUL but disappear with the body, attacks that phase the SOUL and continue on should phase through the body to do so, so they are intangible.

Don’t think we treat exact percentages like this as canon. It's the same logic as us ignoring damage numbers and the such.

I don't think it's the same, many games use percentages like that and there's no problem
In fact, percentages were accepted in another CRT and are used in Susie's profile

I’d get it if Toby actually added a cheeky line about them not moving, but without that it just seems like Toby didn't want to redo Kris and Ralsei’s sprites for a single Act lol

We don't know, I'm leaving it as it appears in the game

Don't quite see how it's any different from any of the healing items they have? They already have summoning from CH2 anyway.

This is just to mention that they can summon Pipis (I'll add it along with what's already in the profile about Spamton and Jevil in chapter 3)

I mean, Darkners do get hungry and actually take in calories, hell there's a whole cooking mini-game centered around them.
Same deal with breathing, Cap’n mentions it and he's one the more robotic-looking Darkners too.
Honestly even without that stuff, it would've been weird to give them those when they've been shown to get tired and sleep, so already not a 1-to-1 match with their LW object.

Most of those are jokes, and just because they don't need to eat or breathe doesn't mean they can't eat or breathe if they want to. And their being sleepy isn't a problem because I'm not going to give them Self-Sustenance Type 3

I wouldn’t take the SOUL being the “source of our will” as gospel either, especially when the Library book flat-out admits that they don’t actually know its true nature and its other title “font of our compassion” was proven wrong by Kris' actions in the Weird Route.
If anything, I'd take Kris opening a fountain without their SOUL as a confirmation that it's BS.

That was just supporting argument, but if it's written in the game, it's for a narrative reason. And what you say about the Weird Route I don't think it makes sense since it's the player who does all that, not Kris

The ability itself is fine, but the resistance probably isn't, same reason why Undyne and sans don't have it.
Simply fighting someone with an even crippling fear aura, like say Dio or Sukuna, is not enough to net you a resistance.
Susie not appearing to be affected by the Titan Spawn's fear hax can just be chalked up to her not showing it. She does the exact same thing with the Titan itself afterall.

I think that if you don't feel fear towards someone who manipulates fear, then you have resistance, the same if you overcome fear

But I don't know, I want to see what others say about all this

 

[Qurbonboev]

It's not like in UT where there was a character who's whole thing is being able to ignore said i-frames.

Knight sword tunnel has reduced i-frames. Balthizard smoke ring bypasses i-frames entirely.
Darkners intangible attacks aren't just game mechanics. Knight swords and King bullets phase through Gang body (and damage it in process) in cutscenes.

Don’t think we treat exact percentages like this as canon. It's the same logic as us ignoring damage numbers and the such.

We do actually. We consider maximum possible increase in speed using Sea Tea as canon. Don't see reason to treat it different.

I wouldn’t take the SOUL being the “source of our will” as gospel either, especially when the Library book flat-out admits that they don’t actually know its true nature and its other title “font of our compassion” was proven wrong by Kris' actions in the Weird Route.
If anything, I'd take Kris opening a fountain without their SOUL as a confirmation that it's BS.

If you remove Object A that was the source of Object B, it doesn't necessarily means that you don't have Object B anymore. It's obvious that Queen talks about will and determination as not personality traits, but as something ""tangible""(more akin to UT Determination), that can be stored and extracted. So Kris should have some amount of it even after removing SOUL. True function of SOUL being unknonw doesn't mean book is wrong about things.
And narratively, book content being BS wouldn't make sense. Books are treated as very important things, that give important lore. We can't read books in chapter 1. In chapter 2 we can read books about SOULs and "how to take care of humans for monsters"(that def was used by Toriel). In chapter 4 we can now read book about monster funerals.

I can see some merit to the idea though, since in the overworld scenes where the SOUL pops up, Darkner attacks go right through Kris’ body and only hit the SOUL (See 1, 2, 3) making it a universal rule that Darkners got intangible attacks. But then again, those same attacks also phase right through Susie and Ralsei too, so you could chalk it up to game mechanics. Hard to say for sure.

Honestly, idk myself. You can make arguments that:
1) Bullets hitting only SOUL in overworld is just game mechanics, so they shouldn't get intangible attacks
2) Them going through Susie and Ralsei(without damaging them) is just game mechanics (protecting three of them, without having separate controls would be impossible), so it's not argument against attacks not having intangibility.

Simply fighting someone with an even crippling fear aura, like say Dio or Sukuna, is not enough to net you a resistance.
Susie not appearing to be affected by the Titan Spawn's fear hax can just be chalked up to her not showing it. She does the exact same thing with the Titan itself afterall.

What are requirements to be considered resistant to fearhax? And at least Susie should be considered resistant to fearhax due to dunking on Titan

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We do not assume that all attacks are intangible, which is why they disappear upon making contact with Kris's body and SOUL.

Again, why not just say they disappear because they can’t withstand the force and shatter on impact, like say a bullet? Or that they’re simply not meant to exist indefinitely, like the first example you used for attacks that disappear on contact, which eventually disappears even if you never touch it?

To top it off, Lancer’s spades pass right through us in the overworld but don’t in his boss fight, that's to say I don't think Toby intended anything by making certain attacks poof.

We assume that Kris's SOUL is in their chest during all battles

Should we tho? I know the scene where the SOUL hops across multiple prison walls to reach Susie during her fight with Lancer was (I think?) acknowledged by Toby, when our SOUL went Yellow it left Kris' body and destroyed the Spamton heads in front of Susie and Ralsei, something it literally couldn’t do if it were stuck in their chest, hell it's even a plot point that Kris used the "You closed your eyes and thought about Susie" to send their SOUL to Susie and find her.

Definitely do feel like it's just leftover thinking from the pre–CH4 days when we didn’t realize the SOUL literally can just float around.

If in a fight an enemy can affect the SOUL's intangibility time, I assume it's canon that it becomes intangible for a few seconds, if it didn't happen in any battle, I wouldn't have included it

Don't have many other examples, but I do know that Hollow Knight has a charm that increases the length of i-frames and we do purely treat it as a gameplay thing.
And now that these have been brought up,

Knight sword tunnel has reduced i-frames. Balthizard smoke ring bypasses i-frames entirely.

It does make me think it's the same for Deltarune. It’s not like that one specific Knight attack is has more selective NPI than her other attacks, it’s just trying to emulate a machine-gun effect and does that by reducing i-frames. Meanwhile Balthizard's is trying to emulate continuous burn damage, so it ignores i-frames altogether.

I don't think it's the same, many games use percentages like that and there's no problem

I'm not knowledgeable about many RPGs, but the ones I know (OMORI and Lisa) don't do that.

We don't know, I'm leaving it as it appears in the game

In UT you can also abort the Genocide route by sparing Monster Kid and Alphys, who’s been watching you mow down monsters nonstop, suddenly becomes your biggest fan and does her whole routine to convince you to stay underground. Oh and she doesn't even bother to watch the Undyne fight, because duh? Why would she?

That also appears in the game. Like it's not a crime to say that Toby just got lazy lol

This is just to mention that they can summon Pipis (I'll add it along with what's already in the profile about Spamton and Jevil in chapter 3)

It's weird cause they'll always use the Pipis as a consumable and not a summon. So can we even list it as a summon?

Most of those are jokes, and just because they don't need to eat or breathe doesn't mean they can't eat or breathe if they want to. And their being sleepy isn't a problem because I'm not going to give them Self-Sustenance Type 3

Getting hungry kinda necessitates NEEDing food? I’d get the "it’s just a joke" angle if there were a statement saying they don’t need to eat or breathe, but there isn’t. We’re just hyper-focusing on them being objects in the LW as if that automatically forces them to be 1-to-1 with said object in the DW too, even though the fact they can even get tired and sleep at all already contradicts that, ya know?

Like, are we also gonna say Darkners have no mind? Are they immobile too?

That was just supporting argument, but if it's written in the game, it's for a narrative reason. And what you say about the Weird Route I don't think it makes sense since it's the player who does all that, not Kris

So the main argument is that they’re objects? That's runs into the issues I laid out above.

And when I say it’s contradicted by the Weird Route, I’m talking about how SOULess Kris still goes out of their way to carry Berdly to the hospital and comfort Noelle after Snowgrave, so clearly the idea that "SOUL=compassion, no SOUL=no compassion" is bogus.

I think that if you don't feel fear towards someone who manipulates fear, then you have resistance, the same if you overcome fear

Problem is that we can't read their emotions to say if they're affected or not and we already know that Susie is the type to mask her fear for the sake of others.
We don't even have an "I'm not afraid of you!" or whatever statement for Susie against the Titan Spawn, she just says nothing, which isn't indicative of anything either.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We do actually. We consider maximum possible increase in speed using Sea Tea as canon. Don't see reason to treat it different.

This one is a bit different cause you can apply the stat boost with the lightning that gives them their speed in the first place, so it ends up translating 1-to-1.
Damage increases are a bit more wonky, cause then, should Noelle's Iceshocks upscale from that 150% Susie cause they can deal more damage?

And narratively, book content being BS wouldn't make sense. Books are treated as very important things, that give important lore. We can't read books in chapter 1. In chapter 2 we can read books about SOULs and "how to take care of humans for monsters"(that def was used by Toriel). In chapter 4 we can now read book about monster funerals.

The book doesn't even treat it as fact, but just one of the many interpretations people have had around the SOUL.
It's kinda in the same boat as those Pokedex entries that mention tales on how some trainers wake up as Kadabras.

What are requirements to be considered resistant to fearhax?

Honestly, I have no idea. I just know that sans has tried to get it 2 times, and each time it was rejected.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Again, why not just say they disappear because they can’t withstand the force and shatter on impact, like say a bullet?

For attacks to go through someone's body they would either need:a) be strong enough to just brute force through them. Which would result in target being teared apart, or b)be intangible through magic.
Now consider that Knight swords(that go through Kris body) are bigger than Kris. If they were going through their body by brute force, there would be nothing left of Kris, lmao. They are clearly meant to be magical intangible attacks.

This one is a bit different cause you can apply the stat boost with the lightning that gives them their speed in the first place, so it ends up translating 1-to-1.

If that is the case, I will wait for more knowledgeable members to comment. But I think HoldBreath is somewhat different case, since it's just speed increase, and ingame speed is usually translated more straightforward to Actual speed, compared to translating damage numbers to AP. And btw, warning increasing attack by 50% for Susie was accepted in previous CRTs

The book doesn't even treat it as fact, but just one of the many interpretations people have had around the SOUL.

It's not necessarily interpretation. Book treats them as facts about Soul, that are well known. And there are some true unknown function of it, but it doesn't invalidate other facts about it. Us not knowing about leaves true function as photosynthesis machines didn't automatically invalidate other facts we did know about them.

Like, are we also gonna say Darkners have no mind? Are they immobile too?

Different case. There are obvious (duh) signs that are not mindless and immobile. But there are no obvious signs that they have Soul. Normally, we treat every being as if it has Soul. But since there are other arguments for them being soulless it's different.

And when I say it’s contradicted by the Weird Route, I’m talking about how SOULess Kris still goes out of their way to carry Berdly to the hospital and comfort Noelle after Snowgrave, so clearly the idea that "SOUL=compassion, no SOUL=no compassion" is bogus.

Maybe they do it because they love Berdly. SOUL wasn't stated to be sources of love.
1. Person could he emotionless and lack empathy, and still understand that they need to bring their almost dead friend to hospital. Actual people without empathy don't just go and kill children and burn grandmas, you know? And situation is complicated by fact that Kris had SOUL before, so they should remember their emotions and relationships, and should value regardless. Closest comparison is their sibling from another world: Flowey. He directly says that he lost compassion after losing Soul. And yet, he tried hard to feel actual emotions again, to became close with parents, because he knew it wasn't normal. If someone attacked Dreemurrs during that time, he would obviously defended them. Reminder, Flowey killed themselves because he couldn't feel emotions. Turning him into emotionless monster took a long time.
Fun fact: People who lost sight, can still "see" dreams for pretty long time.

Honestly, I have no idea. I just know that sans has tried to get it 2 times, and each time it was rejected

Let's wait then for more knowledgeable members then.

 

[SnakesCity]

Closest comparison is their sibling from another world: Flowey. He directly says that he lost compassion after losing Soul. And yet, he tried hard to feel actual emotions again, to became close with parents, because he knew it wasn't normal. If someone attacked Dreemurrs during that time, he would obviously defended them. Reminder, Flowey killed themselves because he couldn't feel emotions. Turning him into emotionless monster took a long time.

Flowey "definitely completely emotionless without any hint of lingering feelings" the Flower still pining for their dead friend after who knows how long and making a big elaborate plan to stay with them for as long as possible.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Flowey "definitely completely emotionless without any hint of lingering feelings" the Flower still pining for their dead friend after who knows how long and making a big elaborate plan to stay with them for as long as possible.

Yeah, this is my point. Flowey has better evidence of having lost compassion (he directly states that, and him killing his parents over and over again proves it), and he still have something left.

"definitely completely emotionless without any hint of lingering feelings"

Again, my point is that Flowey would have lingering feelings, and it took considerable effort to get rid of most of them. Kris without SOUL would be similar to him in his early days. Technically "emotionless", but still has lost lingering feelings. Flowey still felt that he shouldn't harm anyone. Kris too would fell that they should comfort Noelle, save Berdly and confront us

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don’t know if we really want to use Flowey as an example here, because that sets a precedent that being "SOULess=no love/compassion" and then by extension the Darkners, who are supposedly SOULess, should be the same. And like I don't think I should explain why that ain't right. And before anyone brings up the idea that the Dark Fountain is what gives them emotions and shit, Tenna is a clear example that some Darkners are still somewhat retain their consciousness in the LW, find joy out in serving and even outright prefers it to living in Castletown, which makes zero sense if taking him outside the Fountain is supposed to be the equivalent of turning Asriel into Flowey.

And I want to stress again, Darkners having no SOUL is never stated anywhere, and it's just assumed cause they’re objects in the LW.

For attacks to go through someone's body they would either need:a) be strong enough to just brute force through them. Which would result in target being teared apart, or b)be intangible through magic.
Now consider that Knight swords(that go through Kris body) are bigger than Kris. If they were going through their body by brute force, there would be nothing left of Kris, lmao. They are clearly meant to be magical intangible attacks.

Looking into it, both Cuphead and Hollow Knight also have attacks that pass through the player character's body while some attacks just get destroyed/vanish on contact with them, and yet we don't treat those attacks as intangible or take the i-frames as an actual canonical element. Attacks breaking most of the time is meant to show the projectile just isn’t durable rather than implying that the other 70% of attacks in-game are non-physical.

And honestly, I don’t even know why we’re treating the cutscenes as literal phasing in the first place. King’s spades disappear on contact with us just like Lancer’s do, and Lancer’s spade also poofs when it hits King. If anything, the attacks only look like they’re going through characters because the sprites overlap, there’s no other way to visually portray ramming into the target in that art style. Every time we’ve actually seen these attacks used in a cutscene (King’s and the Knight’s), they physically knock the Fun Gang backward, which lines up with them colliding like in the gif below, not passing through.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I don’t know if we really want to use Flowey as an example here, because that sets a precedent that being "SOULess=no love/compassion" and then by extension the Darkners, who are supposedly SOULess, should be the same

No. SOUL is described as font of the compassion for Lightners only. There is no reason to think that Darkners can't have it without SOUL. UT humans are fine with SOULs that don't provide love, hope, compassion (they can have these without it).

And I want to stress again, Darkners having no SOUL is never stated anywhere, and it's just assumed cause they’re objects in the LW.

Let's forget about compassion, and return to main topic.
1. Based on what Library book and Ralsei say, SOUL is source of the will.
2. Will/Determination is needed to create Fountains.
3. Only Lightners poccess Will, so only they can create fountains. But if Darkner were to obtain it, they too would be able to create Fountains.
4. Darkners don't have will, ergo lack SOUL.

Looking into it, both Cuphead and Hollow Knight also have attacks that pass through the player character's body while some attacks just get destroyed/vanish on contact with them, and yet we don't treat those attacks as intangible or take the i-frames as an actual canonical element

Are they intangible in cutscenes too?

Every time we’ve actually seen these attacks used in a cutscene (King’s and the Knight’s), they physically knock the Fun Gang backward, which lines up with them colliding like in the gif below, not passing through.

Ghosts are considered to be intangible beings, and they usually can push other beings. So it's not anti feat for intangibility.

 

[SnakesCity]

snip

Don't worry i am agreeing with you, i don't think being SOULless means you're 100% devoid of any emotion or just incapable of feeling compassion as this is obviously not the case as seen primarily with Flowey who's attitude is largely projection (which Asriel even admits to). I think being SOULless more so extremely dampens your ability to feel positive emotions but it doesn't just erase any previous feelings you had.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

UT humans are fine with SOULs that don't provide love, hope, compassion (they can have these without it).

I’m not crazy for saying that isn’t true, right? At least not in the sense that it isn’t just Monsters trying to make themselves sound better than they really are. Muffet's whole business strategy doesn't sound like it follows either of those three (It reads way more like propaganda than anything else).

Let's forget about compassion, and return to main topic.
1. Based on what Library book and Ralsei say, SOUL is source of the will.
2. Will/Determination is needed to create Fountains.
3. Only Lightners poccess Will, so only they can create fountains. But if Darkner were to obtain it, they too would be able to create Fountains.
4. Darkners don't have will, ergo lack SOUL.

Look at it this way,

1. We know compassion, something that’s supposedly sourced from a SOUL, can just show up on its own without one.
2. We know someone with no SOUL can still make a fountain
3. And per UT rules, a being without a SOUL shouldn’t feel compassion or love and there's really no difference between Flowey and the Darkners if they actually are SOULess (They're both objects brought to life through magical means/DT, if anything at least in Flowey has remnants of a SOUL still there, can't even say that for Darkners).

Simplest explanation is that we shouldn't take that book as gospel. Nothing's wrong with just leaving Darkners in an ambiguous spot cause we genuinely don’t have any concrete info on their SOULs whatsoever.

Plus, if compassion can exist without a SOUL, then what’s stopping Determination/Will from existing without one too? What stops me from saying Monsters don’t have SOULs either? The only SOUL we actually see in-game is Kris’. You see my angle?

Are they intangible in cutscenes too?

Cuphead cutscenes are just the characters talking, and Hollow Knight's too have nothing to do with combat.
It ain't really a + for DR anyway, since the cutscenes don't show us intangible attacks either.

Ghosts are considered to be intangible beings, and they usually can push other beings. So it's not anti feat for intangibility.

I'm just saying there's more ways to interpret that scene then the spades phasing through the Fun Gang's bodies.
(And like I do feel the point about how King's spades already break the whole "disappear=tangible, don't=intangible" is a bit more important)

 

[StrymULTRA]

(And like I do feel the point about how King's spades already break the whole "disappear=tangible, don't=intangible" is a bit more important)

Tbh doesn't Undyne spear also not disappear despite it hitting a table and then being physically touched by Frisk?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Tbh doesn't Undyne spear also not disappear despite it hitting a table and then being physically touched by Frisk?

Not really a big deal since it disappearing in the fight would = it being tangible according to the logic here.
King's more of a problem cause his bullets are apparently intangible but still get stopped by very physical things (Lancer's too).

 

[Qurbonboev]

I’m not crazy for saying that isn’t true, right? At least not in the sense that it isn’t just Monsters trying to make themselves sound better than they really are. Muffet's whole business strategy doesn't sound like it follows either of those three (It reads way more like propaganda than anything else).

Monsters SOUL stated to be made from hope and love, which sounds too specific to be just a propaganda. I don't get why you bring up Muffet. Monsters can still be evil even with their strange Souls. Plus, Muffet definitely feel love and compassion (towards her spiders) and hope(of being rich).

We know someone with no SOUL can still make a fountain

Based on how Queen and Ralsei describe will it's probably similar to Determination. Both are produced by Soul, but you can still use it, if for some reason you don't have it anymore, but did have it(or was injected with it).

And per UT rules, a being without a SOUL shouldn’t feel compassion or love and there's really no difference between Flowey and the Darkners if they actually are SOULess (They're both objects brought to life through magical means/DT, if anything at least in Flowey has remnants of a SOUL still there, can't even say that for Darkners).

UT rules that were stated to apply only to UT monsters. Game tries hard to hammer down that UT monsters and humans differ significantly.
And what remnants of SOUL does Flowey have, I don't remember such things? He only has "essence".

Cuphead cutscenes are just the characters talking, and Hollow Knight's too have nothing to do with combat.

So they can be safely attributed to game mechanics without second thoughts.

Plus, if compassion can exist without a SOUL, then what’s stopping Determination/Will from existing without one too? What stops me from saying Monsters don’t have SOULs either? The only SOUL we actually see in-game is Kris’. You see my angle?

We have examples of Souls that don't provide Compassion (UT Humans), but not examples of souls that can't produce any kind of will or determination(UT monster can produce determination).
Monsters obviously have SOULS. Only time DR makes important differentiation between Monsters and Humans, is when Ralsei mentions that only Kris Soul can seal fountain. Which is probably due to Kris SOUL being linked to us if anything.
For most of time distinction is between Lightners and Darkners. All Lightners can create dark Fountains, all of them have will, which should be produced by their SOULs.
(Curiously, Toby initially planned to make everyone human(yes, we would see human Toriel, Sans, Undyne etc.), but changed his mind, since this move would make Hometown too strange for players, and he wanted to make it feel normal. Take it more as fun fact to illustrate idea of lack of important distinction between DR humans and monsters, since this is unknown how much DR changed since them).

Cuphead cutscenes are just the characters talking, and Hollow Knight's too have nothing to do with combat.
It ain't really a + for DR anyway, since the cutscenes don't show us intangible attacks either.

So they can be safely explained away as purely game mechanics. DR cutscenes show us attacks that can be interpreted as intangible.

King's more of a problem cause his bullets are apparently intangible but still get stopped by very physical things (Lancer's too).

Some Darkners attacks are intangible, some are not. If by being stopped by very physical things, you meant Kris shield, it's non argument, since it's magical shield that transforms into sword and vice-versa.

 

[LittleGuy99]

I changed the King's case to "Selective Intangible attacks" for what I mentioned in the CRT
And well, Lancer's spades haven't proven to be intangible, just saying, that was already in the CRT

 

[LittleGuy99]

I changed the King's case to "Selective Intangible attacks" for what I mentioned in the CRT
And well, Lancer's spades haven't proven to be intangible, just saying, that was already in the CRT

Furthermore, I was convinced and eliminated the entire "layered" part of the Titan's Fear Manipulation
Didn't have very good arguments

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Monsters SOUL stated to be made from hope and love, which sounds too specific to be just a propaganda. I don't get why you bring up Muffet. Monsters can still be evil even with their strange Souls. Plus, Muffet definitely feel love and compassion (towards her spiders) and hope(of being rich).

I mean the "After all, humans have proven their SOULs don't need these things to exist." line clearly comes from how monsters viewed humans after the war that trapped them underground. Hate-filled and compassion-less creatures, so of course they’d draw that conclusion.
And it makes me think that the whole “love, hope, and compassion” thing wasn’t based on any study on SOULs at all (The wording already hints at it with the “This is what people say monster SOULs are made of") but vibes Ig.

And what remnants of SOUL does Flowey have, I don't remember such things? He only has "essence".

Monsters are attuned to their SOULs, when they dust their SOUL also becomes said dust.

Feels like we’re just gonna loop forever on the SOUL stuff, so I’ll just say this. I don’t think the idea is that out there, it’s just that we don’t have nearly enough evidence to slap it on the profiles, at least without a "possibly" or something.
And rn, Darkners line up way better with Type 1 Inorganics "objects that were granted life via supernatural means." than the soulless Type 2 counterparts.

So they can be safely explained away as purely game mechanics. DR cutscenes show us attacks that can be interpreted as intangible.

Thing is, the intangible interpretation requires a bit too much leeway I feel, there's just genuinely no way for Toby to portray something like in the Angstrom gif without overlaying the bullet sprites over the Fun Gang's. Plus, at least in Cuphead's and Hollow Knight's cases it isn't ever contradicted, DR contradicts it twice.

Some Darkners attacks are intangible, some are not. If by being stopped by very physical things, you meant Kris shield, it's non argument, since it's magical shield that transforms into sword and vice-versa.

Nah I mean this.

And well, Lancer's spades haven't proven to be intangible.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Tenna: Perception Manipulation (Alters the opponent's vision by creating a horizontal cut in their view)

That's Spatial Manipulation, not Perception Manipulation. It pretty much says so on the profile.

Aside from that, I agree with everything else here.