(Accepted) Deltarune: Intangibility, Physiology and more

[Qurbonboev]

Sandbox:

LittleGuy99/Sandbox0

vsbattles.fandom.com

Link to version history of sandbox in case
Darkners physiology page:

Darkner Physiology

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

You can just copy all of these, then add them to a blog, copy the blog link, and put it in CRT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I cannot read this m8 (also where's physiology bruh)

 

[Qurbonboev]

You can just copy all of these, then add them to a blog, copy the blog link, and put it in CRT.

Thanks for the tip. There were problems with Wi-fi, so I edited it a bit too later.

I cannot read this m8 (also where's physiology bruh)

Does this looks good now

 

[StrymULTRA]

Does this looks good now

Tbf I'd just link a history version of these sandboxes (like this) so that people won't complain about sneak edits.

Anyway, I'll comment on this tomorrow.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The main basis for the intangibility is that some projectiles don’t disappear on contact. They hit us, keep going and therefore must be passing through us.
But I’d argue it's far more likely due to gameplay balance (Like say Jevil’s scythes vanished the instant you touched them, that entire attack would become dramatically easier to dodge) and less to do with some in-universe property certain attacks got.

It'd be one thing if DR was the only game to do so, but both Cuphead and Hollow Knight have attacks that pass through the player’s body while others vanish on hit, and we don't treat the former as intangible. Plus, what really sells the balance thing for me is how inconsistent it is. Attacks will arbitrarily go from intangible, to tangible and back to intangible again with no discernible reason. I know we're going with the whole "Selective Intangibility" thing but it does feel like we’re overanalyzing and assigning rules to something that’s never acknowledged in-universe, and let's be fr Toby hadn't even considered in the slightest.

But see what makes DR different is that the attacks phase through us in the CUTSCENES, these cutscenes being:
1. King's Spades

This one is honestly really weak. The whole thing hinges on the fact that the spade sprites visually overlap with the Fun Gang's, but like, it's a 2D game. A massive swarm of spades ram into the Fun Gang, knocking them flat on the ground and passes over them cause it's no longer in contact with em (If it was they'd be shoved off the castle lol).
It'd be like saying the rock character A threw at character B and laid him on the ground is intangible cause, from a birdeye view, it looks like it went through B’s body.

2. The Knight's Swords

This one is more solid just by virtue of the swords being bigger than the cast and so on. Problem is it's got one pretty massive ANTI-FEAT, that being how Kris, Susie and Ralsei can shield each other from the swords by physically putting themselves in front of the others and taking the hit.

You could argue that the SOUL is transferring damage to the one in front for... reasons Ig, but that really doesn't line up with how the scene is presented, with only the one in the front getting pushed back by the swords and having to be pulled back up by the other two, which wouldn't make sense if it was phantom pain.

 

[Qurbonboev]

But I’d argue it's far more likely due to gameplay balance (Like say Jevil’s scythes vanished the instant you touched them, that entire attack would become dramatically easier to dodge) and less to do with some in-universe property certain attacks got.

Fair point (thought a bit less convincing in case of UTDR compared to other games). And we already give Sans Intangible attacks for this reasoning. Don't see why we shouldn't grant DR enemies it for same reasons

It'd be one thing if DR was the only game to do so, but both Cuphead and Hollow Knight have attacks that pass through the player’s body while others vanish on hit, and we don't treat the former as intangible. Plus, what really sells the balance thing for me is how inconsistent it is. Attacks will arbitrarily go from intangible, to tangible and back to intangible again with no discernible reason. I know we're going with the whole "Selective Intangibility" thing but it does feel like we’re overanalyzing and assigning rules to something that’s never acknowledged in-universe, and let's be fr Toby hadn't even considered in the slightest.

AFAIK there is not cutscenes showing such in Cuphead and Hollow Knight.
We don't know exactly what reasons are for specific attacks being intangible or not for most part(besides one time for Lancer, where if spade was intangible it would have hit him or gang member too), but I don't think it's too much of impediment.

You could argue that the SOUL is transferring damage to the one in front for... reasons Ig

Damage transferal is something that SOUL always does in overworld. Transfering to someone in front(who usually is more durable and tougher one) makes sense.
Based purely on what is being presented, member on front wouldn't even shield others, since he/she/them couldn't cover all of them.

Thanks for the input. What is your opinion on other things?

 

[StrymULTRA]

As I said already before off-site, I don't agree with Inorganic Physiology being given to a default. We have things like Rudinn, Hathy, King, Lancer, Jevil and Rouxls who are all cards (aka paper most of the time), Ponman who is a chess piece (wood) and Jackenstein who is mainly made of wax. It shouldn't be given as something all the Darkners possess, but only to the specific Darkners who are 100% objectively so. I don't think that Lanino and Elnina should get it either, as being a "weather channel" is just weird, and they'd have Type 1 Abstract Existence if that stuff is taken literally (as I don't think that a literal TV program can be expressed as something else), but they clearly don't. There are also others like Shadowmen or Ribbick who we just have no idea on what they're supposed to be.

Only characters who would get the Inorganic Physiology are the following:

• Literally every Darkner from Cyber World (they're all robots or still literal physical data)
• Tenna (is a TV with cybernetic insides)
• Shuttah (a camera)
• Zapper (a TV remote)
• Watercooler (Water and plastic)
• Balthizard (Steel)
• Wicabel (Steel)
• Mizzle (Water)
• Miss Mizzle (Water)
• Organikk (Steel)
• Winglade (Steel)
• Shadow Mantle (Data)

---

I also don't agree with the Self-Sustenance, as the very existence of food as consumables disproves the notion of Darkners not needing any food. Heck, Lancer knows what hunger is and there are chefs and melons too, which would make no sense to exist in Dark Worlds if Darkners do not need food whatsoever. And if objects, who supposedly do not need food, actually do as Darkners, then the same applies to breathing, given that there's no reason to treat Darkners as 1:1 with their respective objects regarding physiological needs.

---

The Resistances also aren't something I am fond of. While I have previously agreed with those, objects don't have minds, magic, voice, emotions or humanoid bodies either, but Darkners have all of these, so nothing really tells they don't have these things. The characters above who I am saying are inorganic at least have hard evidence of being so, like Wicabel being made of metal, Queen a robot that runs on batteries, or Spamton being a puppet who can upload himself into discs, but people like Lancer? Absolutely nothing says they're made of paper (I mean Lancer can bounce, don't think paper does that), Darkners simply ain't consistent about Physiology.

The resistances in question would be to Biological Manipulation, Blood Manipulation, Bone Manipulation, Poison & Diseases, and only for characters who 100% do not have these (won't list the inorganic ones because it'd be redundant):

• Ralsei (is made of fluff, something that hinted already from him being able to become his own actual plushie)
• Bloxxer (made of yk, blocks as its body can be re-arranged as it wants)
• Jackenstein (made of just wax)

Don't really care about the intangible stuff.

Whatever I didn't mention has my thumbs up.

 

[Qurbonboev]

As I said already before off-site, I don't agree with Inorganic Physiology being given to a default. We have things like Rudinn, Hathy, King, Lancer, Jevil and Rouxls who are all cards (aka paper most of the time), Ponman who is a chess piece (wood) and Jackenstein who is mainly made of wax. It shouldn't be given as something all the Darkners possess, but only to the specific Darkners who are 100% objectively so.

Agree.
If nobody have new arguments for self sustenance, it would be ditched.
I would add to list of darkners with Inorganic physiology:
Rudinns and Rudinn Rangers(are called diamonds in DW, and smell as jewelry)
Rabbicks and Ribbicks - which most likely are dust beings.
Sound of Justice - we don't know for sure it's material. It's accepted as ceramic(inorganic material) in calcs if this matters, but it very well could be wood. Nevertheless, we can see it insides, and they don't look like something that can be influenced by biological manipulation.

And would add to list of beings without inorganic physiology but resistance to biological manipulation and similar:
K. Round - is checker piece
Jigsawry - is jigsaw piece
Pippins - made of dices
(All of the above is usually made from organic materials)
Biblifox - transforms into books, smells like parchment, which is popular material for books, that is made from animal skins.)

Additionally there is situation with Titan and titanspawns, which are eligible for having Inorganic Physiology type 2(as being made from darkners, brought to life by Dark Fountains). We already accept them being mindless and soulless, so giving them type 2 shouldn't be a stretch. What do you think?(And what about Guei, which are spirits?)

Thanks for the input

 

[StrymULTRA]

Rabbicks and Ribbicks - which most likely are dust beings.

They still have an actual body beneath the dust, they're called dusty, not made of 100% dust.

Sound of Justice - we don't know for sure it's material. It's accepted as ceramic(inorganic material) in calcs if this matters, but it very well could be wood. Nevertheless, we can see it insides, and they don't look like something that can be influenced by biological manipulation.

If it's accepted as ceramic then whatever, we gotta give it too.

K. Round - is checker piece

Still has legs

Jigsawry - is jigsaw piece
Pippins - made of dices
(All of the above is usually made from organic materials)
Biblifox - transforms into books, smells like parchment, which is popular material for books, that is made from animal skins.)

Eeeh neutral.

Additionally there is situation with Titan and titanspawns, which are eligible for having Inorganic Physiology type 2(as being made from darkners, brought to life by Dark Fountains). We already accept them being mindless and soulless, so giving them type 2 shouldn't be a stretch.

Sure.

And what about Guei, which are spirits?

Non-Corporeality already deals with that, Inorganic Physiology implies physicality.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

following

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Styrm

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Fair point (thought a bit less convincing in case of UTDR compared to other games). And we already give Sans Intangible attacks for this reasoning. Don't see why we shouldn't grant DR enemies it for same reasons

It's weird cause sans isn't the only one with those types of attacks, Dogamy and Dogaressa's Axes, Mettaton's legs (It's rn the basis of High 8-C for everyone who's not a Boss Monster, but it's supposed to be really heavy and also intangible?) and even Muffet's Spiders, which is very weird.

We don't know exactly what reasons are for specific attacks being intangible or not for most part(besides one time for Lancer, where if spade was intangible it would have hit him or gang member too), but I don't think it's too much of impediment.

It does kinda cause for some reason Lancer uses intangible spades while he's attacking us in the overworld, but then doesn't in any of his actual fights.
Again it just seems like us just making up a mechanic for an inconsistency that Toby probably paid no mind.

Damage transferal is something that SOUL always does in overworld. Transfering to someone in front(who usually is more durable and tougher one) makes sense.
Based purely on what is being presented, member on front wouldn't even shield others, since he/she/them couldn't cover all of them.

In the overworld they all take the same if the SOUL gets hurt I think, and don't we accept the SOUL as like, being stuck inside Kris during the adventures so the attacks being targeted at Susie and Ralsei are just like, physically targeting them or something? (Did say this before but definitely seems wrong now given the Gerson stuff and the SOUL jumping to Susie being both acknowledged by Toby and being a plot point in itself)

It's a can of worms, that doesn't really need to be opened here cause Susie outright says Kris was hogging the bullets and the problem with the one in front not being big enough just feels like a technical limitation than anything else, the intent of the scene is very much supposed to be a Piccolo.

What is your opinion on other things?

Besides the inorganic stuff Strym brought up, everything else looks good.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I agree with Styrm

What's is your opinion on matter of intangible attacks?

It's weird cause sans isn't the only one with those types of attacks, Dogamy and Dogaressa's Axes, Mettaton's legs (It's rn the basis of High 8-C for everyone who's not a Boss Monster, but it's supposed to be really heavy and also intangible?) and even Muffet's Spiders, which is very weird.

Sans fangirls smth

It's a can of worms, that doesn't really need to be opened here cause Susie outright says Kris was hogging the bullets and the problem with the one in front not being big enough just feels like a technical limitation than anything else, the intent of the scene is very much supposed to be a Piccolo.

Agree with it being can of worms, that should be opened later, with more information

 

[SnakesCity]

Agree with Strym.

 

[Edutyn]

Agree

 

[Qurbonboev]

Bump

 

[Qurbonboev]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

I am in favor of dedicating the Intangibility discussion to its own CRT, since there seems to be a divide in opinions regarding it.

EDIT: This positioning of favoring of mine has been retracted.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am in favor of dedicating the Intangibility discussion to its own CRT, since there seems to be a divide in opinions regarding it.

Literally nobody said that we should do that here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Isn't that this CRT? It was split from the massive bundle of abilities here to be discussed on its own here.

 

[Imaginym]

It's a can of worms, that doesn't really need to be opened here cause Susie outright says Kris was hogging the bullets and the problem with the one in front not being big enough just feels like a technical limitation than anything else, the intent of the scene is very much supposed to be a Piccolo.

Agree with it being can of worms, that should be opened later, with more information

Literally nobody said that we should do that here.

Did they not?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Did they not?

That's more referring to how we treat the SOUL rn (Stuck to Kris)
The intangibility args aren't reliant on that tho

 

[Imaginym]

That's more referring to how we treat the SOUL rn (Stuck to Kris)
The intangibility args aren't reliant on that tho

Alright, then, if y'all aren't proposing putting it into its own CRT to handle its stuff independently, I'll retract that earlier positioning of favoring.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Alright, then, if y'all aren't proposing putting it into its own CRT to handle its stuff independently, I'll retract that earlier positioning of favoring.
Sorry for the confusion.

So you now disagree with Intangible attacks? Alright then.
What about other parts?
Do you agree overall with Strym position regarding inorganic Physiology, and associated resistances(plus some tweaks that I proposed that he did agreed to)?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Did they not?

I completely forgot that, didn't read the above. I mixed it with a previous thread, my bad here.

 

[Imaginym]

So you now disagree with Intangible attacks? Alright then.

No. I retracted my support/proposal of giving the Intangibility its own individual CRT.
Regarding whether it's valid or not, I'm currently undecided.

What about other parts?
Do you agree overall with Strym position regarding inorganic Physiology, and associated resistances(plus some tweaks that I proposed that he did agreed to)?

Tired, haven't checked the sandboxes at time, checked the thread.

Regarding the debate, some of what Eden said does seem plausible.
Toby may have made certain projectiles pass through or disappear for game balance, & it's often unclear which, & seemingly not that consistent on when characters use which. Not to mention the ambiguity of impact points from the 2D medium.
The attacks being intangible, akin to souls, yet being considered to have mass (Like Dogamy & Dogaressa's axes, Mettaton's legs & Sans's bones in UT.)

As well as the whole scene of the Delta Warriors blocking the swords for the others, which is weird since it's a wall of swords, but since it's preceded by walls with gaps, the wall may be to force the hit. As mentioned, when one of them get hits, only the hit-taker takes damage & knockback, & the other two hoist them up, seemingly without having received pain from the swords hitting.
& it'd be atypical damage transferal for the SOUL, which gives overworld damage to the whole party, not individuals. (& doesn't the light remain in Kris, so it's not like the control Susie battles where the one with the SOUL is taking damage.)

So I'm a bit... "on the fence".

• Literally every Darkner from Cyber World (they're all robots or still literal physical data)
• Tenna (is a TV with cybernetic insides)
• Shuttah (a camera)
• Zapper (a TV remote)
• Watercooler (Water and plastic)
• Balthizard (Steel)

Aren't they incense holders, so incense material may be prominently included?

• Winglade (Steel)

Aren't they feather pens?
"Based on the item which it shares a name with, along with the nature of the 2nd Sanctuary, it is likely the Dark World form of a quill writing pen."

• Winglade draws flowers with its blade. [Neutral]

The Winglade (item) is a sword with a hint with a feather that's prominent in its description & Equipping interactions, & it is the Quill Pen in the Light World.
Also, FWIW, The White Pen of Hope may be a sword, based on at least, IIRC, the prophecy panel of "THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.", which seems to depict her holding a sword in its panel's image, giving an ostensible precedent for pens being swords besides Kris's Equipment.

• Shadow Mantle (Data)

In the 6th Anniversary Stream, when King's cape flies away, TTS Toby Fox says "Cool mantle, bro" before the cape flies up & away. Some believe this may indicate the mantle is an independent being. (Strange that Seam would expect to have it just staying around in his shop, if so, but still.) Considering the Shadow Mantle Holder's shape, despite its claim of holding the Shadow Mantle, some believe it may be the mantle itself. (Though its absence since both works for & against this; If it weren't the mantle, it could leave it behind & begone, but if it is the Mantle, & if it's anything like Jevil & Spamton, couldn't it be the mantle itself? Has it just not yet had a reason to speak up like they do? FWIW, Kris, its apparent focus hasn't had any tense moments alone since, IIRC.)
Further considering that during the Shadow Mantle Holder's battle, Kris takes damage when they didn't during other parts of Mantle/The Original Game & the TV screen's light becomes absent, & the dark environment after the battle can be exited by HERO_SWORD & into by Kris to take the Shadow Mantle item.

Given that, I'm not certain the mantle &/or its holder are data, especially if King had it more, & even then, Seam thought he had it in its shop, calling it a scrap of old cloth, suggesting it WAS there at some point prior to TV World's Dark Fountain's creation. Is something strange going on? I currently don't know of much reason why Seam would be deluded about that.

---

I also don't agree with the Self-Sustenance, as the very existence of food as consumables disproves the notion of Darkners not needing any food. Heck, Lancer knows what hunger is and there are chefs and melons too, which would make no sense to exist in Dark Worlds if Darkners do not need food whatsoever. And if objects, who supposedly do not need food, actually do as Darkners, then the same applies to breathing, given that there's no reason to treat Darkners as 1:1 with their respective objects regarding physiological needs.

---

I think the points about Self-Sustenance are good.

The Resistances also aren't something I am fond of. While I have previously agreed with those, objects don't have minds, magic, voice, emotions or humanoid bodies either, but Darkners have all of these, so nothing really tells they don't have these things.

FWIW, if Ralsei is to be believed in the Chapter 3 intro, Darkners may be sort of illusions?? But then again, Susie disagrees, so either she's being wrong for the right reasons, or it's in there to narratively assert Ralsei presenting them that way is at least partially incorrect/wrong, & there's stuff that suggests Ralsei at least, & other Darkners, have histories where they aren't interacting with Lightners, or at least, act like they do.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Aren't they incense holders, so incense material may be prominently included?

They are stell incense holders:
"An ancient aromancer, it generates magic incense and stores it in its steel shell. Easygoing, it gets along well with Guei."
So it's should be counted as being composed of steel.

Aren't they

It's blade with feathers at the end.
"A radical blade with feathers at the hilt"
So it should be mostly inorganic.

 

[Imaginym]

They are stell incense holders:
"An ancient aromancer, it generates magic incense and stores it in its steel shell. Easygoing, it gets along well with Guei."
So it's should be counted as being composed of steel.

Fair.

It's blade with feathers at the end.
"A radical blade with feathers at the hilt"
So it should be mostly inorganic.

& if its Light World counterpart itself is a quill, which is an organic part, what of that?

Rabbicks and Ribbicks - which most likely are dust beings.

I had forgotten to mention this earlier, but isn't dust basically always organic material? Decaying stuff & whatnot?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Aren't they incense holders, so incense material may be prominently included?

Incense holders are made of what?

"Based on the item which it shares a name with, along with the nature of the 2nd Sanctuary, it is likely the Dark World form of a quill writing pen."

Yeah, but the CHECK says this: The witch's familiar, a living sword. Its greatest delight is being asked to carve graffiti.

No idea if a feather can be called a sword, it also seems metallic in looks.

independent being. (Strange that Seam would expect to have it just staying around in his shop, if so, but still.) Considering the Shadow Mantle Holder's shape, despite its claim of holding the Shadow Mantle, some believe it may be the mantle itself. (Though its absence since both works for & against this; If it weren't the mantle, it could leave it behind & begone, but if it is the Mantle, & if it's anything like Jevil & Spamton, couldn't it be the mantle itself? Has it just not yet had a reason to speak up like they do? FWIW, Kris, its apparent focus hasn't had any tense moments alone since, IIRC.)
Further considering that during the Shadow Mantle Holder's battle, Kris takes damage when they didn't during other parts of Mantle/The Original Game & the TV screen's light becomes absent, & the dark environment after the battle can be exited by HERO_SWORD & into by Kris to take the Shadow Mantle item.

Given that, I'm not certain the mantle &/or its holder are data, especially if King had it more, & even then, Seam thought he had it in its shop, calling it a scrap of old cloth, suggesting it WAS there at some point prior to TV World's Dark Fountain's creation. Is something strange going on? I currently don't know of much reason why Seam would be deluded about that.

I do not understand if you're agreeing or disagreeing here. Thories do not have place in powerscaling stuff, like, I know that said theories are something UTDR fans consume and argue a lot, but could we try avoiding to put them in arguments? Coz this above is a nothingburger that I don't feel tells anything of relevance here.

FWIW, if Ralsei is to be believed in the Chapter 3 intro, Darkners may be sort of illusions?? But then again, Susie disagrees, so either she's being wrong for the right reasons, or it's in there to narratively assert Ralsei presenting them that way is at least partially incorrect/wrong, & there's stuff that suggests Ralsei at least, & other Darkners, have histories where they aren't interacting with Lightners, or at least, act like they do.

How is this relevant with the resistances again?

 

[Qurbonboev]

FWIW, if Ralsei is to be believed in the Chapter 3 intro, Darkners may be sort of illusions??

They aren't illusions in sense that important to us. After all Titans would be considered illusions too by this standard, and they are perfectly capable of causing Apocalypse.

So I'm a bit... "on the fence".

If you are neutral on this debate, I think it better to withhold this debate till new chapter(or new arguments overall) is out.

Some believe this may indicate the mantle is an independent being.

I don't hold a horse in this debate. I am fine to granting it Inorganic Physiology for "being either mantle itself or entity/data that can possess it".

& if its Light World counterpart itself is a quill, which is an organic part, what of that?

I think we should give priority to material composition of Darkners in DW first, and then their objects in LW second.

I had forgotten to mention this earlier, but isn't dust basically always organic material? Decaying stuff & whatnot?

They habe body inside dust, that can't be blown away. So they are not eligible for inorganic physiology either way.

 

[Imaginym]

Incense holders are made of what?

Steel. My point was it seems to contain incense, which it makes use of.

Yeah, but the CHECK says this: The witch's familiar, a living sword. Its greatest delight is being asked to carve graffiti.

Opinion on Winglade drawing flowers with its blade & the pen & blade correlation with the White Pen of Hope, & Kris's equipment?

The DW version of it isn't all sword, & the LW version if a feather/quill that has become a pen, & writing utensils become swords in the LW. & even so, it has the feather for its hilt.

Also:

• A radical blade with feathers at the hilt. [Check]
• Smells like old down pillow. [Neutral, 3% [3]]
• Winglade sheds feathers heavily. [Low HP]
• Winglade molts and revolts. [Neutral]
• The flapping of wings and pages fills the room. [Encounter, with Bibliox]

It's definitely at least partly organic material, even in the DW.
& FWIW, though eyes in fiction aren't always guaranteed to be organic:

• Winglade's eye flutters shut. [Tired]

No idea if a feather can be called a sword, it also seems metallic in looks.

As above, feather, quill pen, sword in DW. Apologies if any bother with repetitiveness.

I do not understand if you're agreeing or disagreeing here. Thories do not have place in powerscaling stuff, like, I know that said theories are something UTDR fans consume and argue a lot, but could we try avoiding to put them in arguments? Coz this above is a nothingburger that I don't feel tells anything of relevance here.

The point is the Shadow Mantle/Shadow Mantle Holder was advocated for being inorganic on the basis of being digital, but that seems to be contradicted by:

1. Toby Fox on-stream seems to call King's cape which flies up away, a "mantle", & the cape has a shape that resembles the Shadow Mantle Holder; If the SMH is this cape, it would cast doubt on the SMH being innately digital, at least in origin.

2. Seam thought he had the Shadow Mantle in his shop until shortly before Chapter 3, calling it an old piece of cloth. Even if they weren't one & the same, Seam seems reliable & non-deluding enough with info, so how could a being of digital origin from a Dark World not yet made have gone into his shop to take the SM unnoticed? & why would the SM be digital if it seems to originate in Card Kingdom, which is based on board games?

3. During the SMH's battle, the light of the TV disappearing with a dark area present that Kris, an arguably more "real" being can enter, & whom the SMH's attacks harm by hitting HERO_SWORD/the SOUL when no other digital enemy from within Mantle/The Original Game can do so either because Lightner or video game reality separation.
Put another way, the lighting disappearing, the game's scenery for the SMH battle being able to be entered & exited, & the SMH being able to do things the other actual video game entities can not do puts into question the notion the SM &/or the SMH are indeed digital, I think.

& the SM has reason to be doubted being digital in the first place if it was once held by King, & especially since it wouldn't need to be digital to have been in Seam's shop & the world where the video game it being digital is a basis for doesn't exist yet at the time.

How is this relevant with the resistances again?

Personally, I'm skeptic of Ralsei's words, but the point is, illusions aren't necessarily made of materials.
Ralsei talks about DWs distorting things & making you see, hear & feel things again.

They aren't illusions in sense that important to us. After all Titans would be considered illusions too by this standard, and they are perfectly capable of causing Apocalypse.

Fair.

If you are neutral on this debate, I think it better to withhold this debate till new chapter(or new arguments overall) is out.

I am a bit neutral, yeah. I don't mind observing debate to see what conclusions others come to, but as is, the intention seems unclear leaning game mechanics, the functionality & usage are inconsistent in the story, a cutscene makes it weird.

I don't hold a horse in this debate. I am fine to granting it Inorganic Physiology for "being either mantle itself or entity/data that can possess it".

Understandable. Do you have opinions on the above?

I think we should give priority to material composition of Darkners in DW first, and then their objects in LW second.

Neutral. I'd like to know what others think, please.

They habe body inside dust, that can't be blown away. So they are not eligible for inorganic physiology either way.

Fair.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Steel. My point was it seems to contain incense, which it makes use of.

I don't think that incense is foundational part of Balthizard same way it's steel shell is. Incense is just something that Balthizard(made of inorganic materials) can produce.

Opinion on Winglade drawing flowers with its blade & the pen & blade correlation with the White Pen of Hope, & Kris's equipment?

I have them, like analogy between Wingblade being revolutionary and Kris being rebellious. But there are better places to discuss it.

It's definitely at least partly organic material, even in the DW.

Same reasoning as with Balthizard. But if you disagree, I am ok with giving it just biological resistances, but not inorganic physiology.

 

[StrymULTRA]

1. Toby Fox on-stream seems to call King's cape which flies up away, a "mantle", & the cape has a shape that resembles the Shadow Mantle Holder; If the SMH is this cape, it would cast doubt on the SMH being innately digital, at least in origin.

Nothing says it's the actual Shadow Mantle besides theory. No it being widely accepted from the fandom isn't evidence, it's like asking to people if Sans is the strongest.

2. Seam thought he had the Shadow Mantle in his shop until shortly before Chapter 3, calling it an old piece of cloth. Even if they weren't one & the same, Seam seems reliable & non-deluding enough with info, so how could a being of digital origin from a Dark World not yet made have gone into his shop to take the SM unnoticed? & why would the SM be digital if it seems to originate in Card Kingdom, which is based on board games?

3. During the SMH's battle, the light of the TV disappearing with a dark area present that Kris, an arguably more "real" being can enter, & whom the SMH's attacks harm by hitting HERO_SWORD/the SOUL when no other digital enemy from within Mantle/The Original Game can do so either because Lightner or video game reality separation.
Put another way, the lighting disappearing, the game's scenery for the SMH battle being able to be entered & exited, & the SMH being able to do things the other actual video game entities can do put into question the notion the SM &/or the SMH are indeed digital, I think.

Fair nuff.

Personally, I'm skeptic of Ralsei's words, but the point is, illusions aren't necessarily made of materials.
Ralsei talks about DWs distorting things & making you see, hear & feel things again.

1. They're "illusions" in the meaning of them being an alternate view of reality, not them being literally nonexistent.
2. You're still not answering whether said resistances are valid or not.

 

[Imaginym]

I don't think that incense is foundational part of Balthizard same way it's steel shell is. Incense is just something that Balthizard(made of inorganic materials) can produce.

If folks find this accurate way, I'm okay with this proposition.

Same reasoning as with Balthizard. But if you disagree, I am ok with giving it just biological resistances, but not inorganic physiology.

This also sounds good.

Nothing says it's the actual Shadow Mantle besides theory. No it being widely accepted from the fandom isn't evidence, it's like asking to people if Sans is the strongest.

Fair, although, it would beg the question of why Toby called King's cape the mantle; The 6th Anniversary Stream lead up to the surprise announcement of Chapter 2, the chapter which has its end, the reveal of the missing Shadow Mantle.
No player/fan would've known what the Mantle was when Toby mentioned it on stream, as the content about it wasn't yet accessible, & in all the hustle & hours of RPG & dialogue & games, it'd be easy for those who watched the stream to have forgotten.

In theory, it could've been a strange prank/wordplay, but that seems atypical & not that funny if it's a joke from him to just call a cape a "mantle".
If it was not foreshadowing, then for why did he do it?

Ah well. Perhaps indeed, this isn't the time/place to discuss that, right?

Fair nuff.

Thank you very much; I am glad we were able to find common ground on this matter! I just hope I didn't seem oppressive in my arguing or something.

1. They're "illusions" in the meaning of them being an alternate view of reality, not them being literally nonexistent.
2. You're still not answering whether said resistances are valid or not.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I've yet to check the Sandboxes, so I haven't really reviewed the resistances to take a stance, I was just concerned that if Darkners are illusions it may be a problem for the proposal as a whole.
If point 1 of yours is the case, which I could believe it is, & would support if indeed others here do, then, I do believe it's possible for some of them to get resistances, but I haven't checked the cases yet. Sorry. : (

 

[Qurbonboev]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I've yet to check the Sandboxes, so I haven't really reviewed the resistances to take a stance, I was just concerned that if Darkners are illusions it may be a problem for the proposal as a whole.

They are resistances to biological stuff(blood manipulation, diseases, poison), that darkners that have inorganic physiology or consist of organic materials(wex, feathers, incense, plastic and others are organic materials but they are not susceptible to most forms of biological manipulation) would get

 

[Qurbonboev]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I've yet to check the Sandboxes

Did you reviewed them now?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

They are resistances to biological stuff(blood manipulation, diseases, poison), that darkners that have inorganic physiology or consist of organic materials(wex, feathers, incense, plastic and others are organic materials but they are not susceptible to most forms of biological manipulation) would get

"There are some problems with it though. Inorganic physiology type 1 (and associated with it abilities) were accepted before by staff, reason being that they are objects that came to life, but some of them are made of organic materials(like Card Kingdom darkners). Additionally giving them self sustenance type 1 and 2 seems unwarranted, considering we have things like cooking mini gamewhere we feed visitors, or Lancer wanting to eat fruits. Inorganic Physiology most likely should be granted on case-by-case basis. But resistance to blood, poison, and diseases manipulation should be kept for all of them. Paper objects are counted as organic materials unlike metal materials, but they are not subject to conventional diseases"

Resistance to:

• Biological Manipulation, Blood Manipulation, Poison & Diseases: Since Darkners are objects that have come to life, their bodies are inorganic, they have no blood and should not be affected by common poisons and diseases.

Inorganic Physiology should probably be applied selectively acording to the conclusions of this thread. Self-Sustenance wouldn't be applicable since we see they can get hungry, need to eat, have chefs....
Resisting Poison & Diseases would probably depend what kind of material they are, & maybe what Poisons & Diseases. Maybe a Possibly or Likely? But then again, lots of resistances have caveats to consider in practice depending on the nature of the resistance & what's to resist in context.
Blood Manipulation resistance seems fine.
Giving Bone Manipulation resistance also seems fine.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Inorganic Physiology should probably be applied selectively acording to the conclusions of this thread. Self-Sustenance wouldn't be applicable since we see they can get hungry, need to eat, have chefs....
Resisting Poison & Diseases would probably depend what kind of material they are, & maybe what Poisons & Diseases. Maybe a Possibly or Likely? But then again, lots of resistances have caveats to consider in practice depending on the nature of the resistance & what's to resist in context.

We already discussed resistances here and reached conclusions that "We need to be sure what material they consists off to give it".
Considering that there is an giant variation in biological manipulation (and similar) abilities, I think it's better to just write concisevly, giving them resistances and noting whether they consists of organic materials or no, like this:
Ralsei:
Resistances to:
Biological manipulation, Bone manipulation, poison, diseases (Is made of fluff, organic material)
It should be obvious that Ralsei is immune to something like Makima biohax(which causes internal bleeding), but not types of biohax where user have full control of any organic molecules.

So, what is your opinion on other parts?