Daniel Park(Heat Mode) vs Kiibo Miyazawa(Tough)

[cloudyagami]

Speed Equalized
Weapons Allowed
Kiibo AP: 8 Megajoules
Daniel AP: 7.3 Megajoules
Random Encounter
Heat Mode Daniel key
Tough Kiibo key

Daniel:

Kiibo: 3 @Armorchompy, @cloudyagami, @Tllmbrg

Neutral:

Inconclusive:
1 (@Ciruno_Fortes_(COB))

 

[cloudyagami]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

hmm

 

[cloudyagami]

hmm

I know right, this matchup is so interesting we need more people im kinda excited to know who wins

 

[Armorchompy]

Can't say I'm familiar with Daniel, but I am the guy who made Kiichi's profile, so I can argue regarding him. What are Dan's strongest properties?

 

[cloudyagami]

Can't say I'm familiar with Daniel, but I am the guy who made Kiichi's profile,

Excellent job on his profile, it made me start reading the series from the wiki you made.

so I can argue regarding him. What are Dan's strongest properties?

His strongest property would be his power mimicry. Daniel can copy the most advanced martial arts down to mastery with a single glance to make up for lack of experience, and uses it to figure out his opponents for the best counters, similar to how Baki Hanma uses his power mimicry. This version of Daniel doesn't have his usual morals since this the "Heated" version Daniel will likely grab weapons in the vicinity. Kiibo in my opinion wins due to the experience gap while also having better hax for fighting.

 

[cloudyagami]

Kiibo has the AP advantage skill advantage as well as strength advantage. However Daniel is well rounded and can reflect Kiibo's attack power back to him. He could use his grappling to break Daniels limbs or put him to sleep. This fight could go either way depending on the situation but i think Kiibo will win

 

[Armorchompy]

Excellent job on his profile, it made me start reading the series from the wiki you made.

I'm really happy to hear that, thanks. BTW, if you didn't know, a new volume of KTT got translated like, yesterday. Doesn't really affect this match but the fight in it is cool

Anyways I'm open to arguments from others but I think it's fair to say Kiichi might win from what I can see. Technique mimicry is very useful, I don't mean to downplay it, but Kiibo isn't a stranger to it either, and can even perform techniques that you would normally need a specific body structure to perform. In fact Park might fail to copy some of Kiichi's leg-based moves since he lacks the Monster's Foot. Copying grappling moves would also be relatively useless due to Kiichi's LS advantage.

Unless he'd be able to copy that, I feel like he'd struggle to deal with the Sky Eye, viewing a fight in slow motion is a massive boon. Even if he does manage to match Kiichi's arsenal, it would ultimately come down to stamina and Kiichi seems to be superior in that regard, not to mention LS means he'll always hold an advantage in grappling.

That said, I might be mistaken, but wouldn't Park hold the AP advantage due to his heat mode?

 

[cloudyagami]

I'm really happy to hear that, thanks. BTW, if you didn't know, a new volume of KTT got translated like, yesterday. Doesn't really affect this match but the fight in it is cool

Noted im definitely going to check it out now that i know this.

Anyways I'm open to arguments from others but I think it's fair to say Kiichi might win from what I can see. Technique mimicry is very useful, I don't mean to downplay it, but Kiibo isn't a stranger to it either, and can even perform techniques that you would normally need a specific body structure to perform. In fact Park might fail to copy some of Kiichi's leg-based moves since he lacks the Monster's Foot. Copying grappling moves would also be relatively useless due to Kiichi's LS advantage.

Yeah i would agree with the power mimicry part, since there is some moves in Lookism that can't be copied like the invisible moves that Sinu Han uses, so its not far fetched to say Kiibo's moves might not be copyable

Unless he'd be able to copy that, I feel like he'd struggle to deal with the Sky Eye, viewing a fight in slow motion is a massive boon. Even if he does manage to match Kiichi's arsenal, it would ultimately come down to stamina and Kiichi seems to be superior in that regard, not to mention LS means he'll always hold an advantage in grappling.

That said, I might be mistaken, but wouldn't Park hold the AP advantage due to his heat mode?

Honestly i don't think he has the AP advantage because Hudson Ahn has a 2Megajoule punch who was comparable to Daniel, but Heated Daniel should be atleast comparable to Taesoo Ma who has the 7.3 megajoule feat , if not slightly weaker than him

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'm really happy to hear that, thanks. BTW, if you didn't know, a new volume of KTT got translated like, yesterday. Doesn't really affect this match but the fight in it is cool

Anyways I'm open to arguments from others but I think it's fair to say Kiichi might win from what I can see. Technique mimicry is very useful, I don't mean to downplay it, but Kiibo isn't a stranger to it either, and can even perform techniques that you would normally need a specific body structure to perform. In fact Park might fail to copy some of Kiichi's leg-based moves since he lacks the Monster's Foot. Copying grappling moves would also be relatively useless due to Kiichi's LS advantage.

Unless he'd be able to copy that, I feel like he'd struggle to deal with the Sky Eye, viewing a fight in slow motion is a massive boon. Even if he does manage to match Kiichi's arsenal, it would ultimately come down to stamina and Kiichi seems to be superior in that regard, not to mention LS means he'll always hold an advantage in grappling.

That said, I might be mistaken, but wouldn't Park hold the AP advantage due to his heat mode?

Funnily Johan who has a lesser variant of Daniel's copying can do exactly that. He can copy an ability that was "Perfect" and also copied Manager Kim's C&C which took his entire life to train. Although Johan himself struggled initially to copy it, he succeeded after he started trying very very shortly. That was also more due to the fact that Manager Kim's technique is supposed to be "uncopyable" yet Johan succeeds. I'll have to be more clear on this eventually. Johan, again, someone inferior to UI Daniel, could copy techniques at the same time it's being used on him AND at the same time he's receiving an attack while not even seeing the attack.

I'm on laptop so I can't unleash a lot of pictures but here's an example. This takes place at the same moment and is done casually. Daniel doing this is perfectly reasonable

Grappling moves are reasonably copyable by both Johan and Daniel.



I'll also note that Technique Mimicry is not the biggest tool Daniel has.

But it's his accelerated development. In the case with Zack as linked on his profile, it basically goes like this.

Daniel < Zack < Daniel stat up < Zack Empowered < Daniel

Those <s represent an absolute stomp. Within the same chapters on their fight linked on his profile (Accelerated development) Daniel has repeatedly went form being stomped to be the one doing the stomping. So an extended fight with Daniel is very problematic.

I noticed that there are some great moves on Kiibo like pressure points, damage reflection and reduction, damage boost (atk when enemy is attacking), elasticity, and analytical prediction, and instincts. There's also some other stuff but they seem to be less relevant, or at least I'll allow you to describe them more.

Daniel can copy many of these, from the damage boost and so on.

Daniel is also very resilient to pain, and Heat mode further helps there. It's a big stat amp that much like his acclerated development elevates Users to going from being stomped to either going toe to toe, or being stomped to doing the stomping. It's quite an impressive stat buff.

Daniel is also very defensive and evasive and usually tries to not ever be hit. His instincts allow him to basically think of an entirely different topic while absent mindedly dodging every attack someone is tossing at him. This is without him realizing he was being attacked too. Later on enemies are able to bypass this but those are top tiers and even then Daniel usually still finds ways to defend.

Another grand issue by Daniel is Systema and Liver Jab, due to his abundance of pressure points and capability to just inflict pain with total disregard of someone's natural damage reduction. You can check out Logan Lee's profile, but that guy essentially ignores being hit my metal bats nonstop. Yet someone who's not as good as Daniel, Jay, is able to bypass that by attacking with Systema.

There's also damage reflection and damage reduction and supernatural willpower.

I have to go now but the overall big factors are

Acclerated Development, Stat up via Heat mode, Copying Technique, and sheer Skill level. I'll have to get on the last one a bit.




To add on, I'll say that impressive job on the profile. I took a quick skim at it since I can't stay long but it's well organized. I take it Tough's a fun read? I'm not reading anything new right now so I'm curious on it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Funnily Johan who has a lesser variant of Daniel's copying can do exactly that. He can copy an ability that was "Perfect" and also copied Manager Kim's C&C which took his entire life to train. Although Johan himself struggled initially to copy it, he succeeded after he started trying very very shortly. That was also more due to the fact that Manager Kim's technique is supposed to be "uncopyable" yet Johan succeeds. I'll have to be more clear on this eventually. Johan, again, someone inferior to UI Daniel, could copy techniques at the same time it's being used on him AND at the same time he's receiving an attack while not even seeing the attack.

I'm on laptop so I can't unleash a lot of pictures but here's an example. This takes place at the same moment and is done casually. Daniel doing this is perfectly reasonable

I suppose Daniel's power mimicry is maybe a little better than Kiichi's, then. That said, his Nadashinkage moves are way more effective than a normal martial art's and some of them are nearly inescapable even if you're familiar with their workings, so just figuring out stuff quickly isn't necessarily a get out of jail ticket. For example, his grappling techniques can work even on this rubbery weirdo.

Not to mention, they're reacting to a relatively conventional attack, and only anticipating it so well because there was a flaw in it. Neither of those conditions would necessarily apply here.

That said, may I ask why it's uncopiable in the first place? Due to sheer skill, or a biological condition?

Grappling moves are reasonably copyable by both Johan and Daniel.

He can copy them but he can't really use them since his LS is inferior.

I'll also note that Technique Mimicry is not the biggest tool Daniel has.

But it's his accelerated development. In the case with Zack as linked on his profile, it basically goes like this.

Daniel < Zack < Daniel stat up < Zack Empowered < Daniel

Those <s represent an absolute stomp. Within the same chapters on their fight linked on his profile (Accelerated development) Daniel has repeatedly went form being stomped to be the one doing the stomping. So an extended fight with Daniel is very problematic.

Kiichi actually has something similar going on, any time he's near losing he'll instinctively develop a new technique that fits the situation he's in nearly perfectly (scans are under the Power Mimicry/AD/etc section in his first key's P&A). He practically has built in plot armor.

Daniel's own development seem like they're stat-based and while that's obviously very useful, one good move (pressure points, choking him out, ki stuff, etc...) could put him down before he's capable of really outmatching Kiichi massively in stats.

I noticed that there are some great moves on Kiibo like pressure points, damage reflection and reduction, damage boost (atk when enemy is attacking), elasticity, and analytical prediction, and instincts. There's also some other stuff but they seem to be less relevant, or at least I'll allow you to describe them more.

Daniel can copy many of these, from the damage boost and so on.

Copying them is useful, but it's not as useful as starting with them by default, so he can bust them out by surprise at any moment. Furthermore, Kiichi has access to a slew of Ki moves which I'm not sure Daniel could copy, assuming his verse doesn't have anything of the sort.

I'll detail Kiichi's most noteworthy techniques in a moment.

Daniel is also very resilient to pain, and Heat mode further helps there.

Well, that may be true, but Kiichi doesn't need to wear him down. Any of his pressure point strikes could take him out in a single blow, he could use his superior LS to grapple him, then choke him into unconsciousness, and so on. Kiichi himself has pretty monstrous stamina, so he could last very long if he's on the backfoot.

Daniel is also very defensive and evasive and usually tries to not ever be hit. His instincts allow him to basically think of an entirely different topic while absent mindedly dodging every attack someone is tossing at him. This is without him realizing he was being attacked too. Later on enemies are able to bypass this but those are top tiers and even then Daniel usually still finds ways to defend.

Another grand issue by Daniel is Systema and Liver Jab, due to his abundance of pressure points and capability to just inflict pain with total disregard of someone's natural damage reduction. You can check out Logan Lee's profile, but that guy essentially ignores being hit my metal bats nonstop. Yet someone who's not as good as Daniel, Jay, is able to bypass that by attacking with Systema.

With due respect, I think Kiichi's pressure points stuff is superior and more versatile, as he doesn't even need to strike the weak point in question, but instead he can attack a related part of the foot to achieve the same effect, among other things. And he has shown the capability to resist pressure point attacks inferior to those he has experience with.

To add on, I'll say that impressive job on the profile. I took a quick skim at it since I can't stay long but it's well organized. I take it Tough's a fun read? I'm not reading anything new right now so I'm curious on it.

I appreciate it, thanks. I'd say Tough's very good yeah, the original series, Koukou Tekkenden Tough, starts slightly rough but quickly develops an incredible sense of choreography in fights, and I'd say the story's good too, it ain't Shakespeare but it works well at getting you pumped for the next fight. It's not quite fully translated but translation has resumed recently, and what is there is already worth reading IMO. It has some of the absolute best portrayal of grappling in fiction, IMO.

After that is Tough (just Tough, this one's fully translated though the quality of the TL varies between arcs) which is a bit darker, and while I think it's still worth reading it does do less "realistic" combat (original Tough was over the top but, odd pseudoscience aside, was definitely based on real concepts) and instead opts for more chi-focused quasi-supernatural combat which I personally don't find as compelling. Still good, though. There's a third, ongoing series with a new protagonist but being relatively new I can't tell you too much about it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok, so, as for some of Kiichi's best techniques:

• Grappling as a whole... there isn't really one technique that stands out but if you look at all of them you can see just how versatile Kiichi is, the second he's even beginning a grapple there's dozens of moves and counter-moves at his disposal which is particularly dangerous for Daniel given the LS advantage, which removes a lot of the possible counterplay.
• Residual Wave:[40] A mysterious technique of the Black Dragon Temple that leaves a mark in one's brain[159] which can later be triggered with certain sounds and induces incredible agony in the victim[48], and can even used to cause hallucinations[49]. In reality, it is performed through a vibration that invades the victim's brain and leaves it feeling "backwards"[160].
  • Effectively a one-tap incap.
• Bakutanken (Exploding Vermillion Fist):[44] Kiibo strikes the foe's chest, releasing all the ki gathered there and causing it to explode across their internal organs[32].
  • Believe it or not, this isn't lethal, but it is another sure-fire incap.
• Isunboshi: A finger jab to the opponent's orifices (ears, nose or anus), which inflicts serious injury by hitting the vital points within them[158].
  • This one isn't that strong, but I want you to know Daniel must live in fear of Kiichi shoving a finger up his ass.
• Tiger's Paw Strike:[75] A kick only possible for those who have the Monster's Foot, this kick is so fast it is impossible to react to and causes the target to feel as if time has stopped[170], while in reality they've already been struck by it. It is also invisible on high speed cameras[171] and equal in speed and power to Oton's Tiger Paw Strike[172]. Kiichi can utilize it with both legs[173] and perform up to five kicksin a single leap[123].
  • Effectively, this is a nearly undodgeable move, with speed equal Daniel can't really see it happening, even aside all the weird perception manip shenanigans.
• Unseen Fist:[174] A punch that moves so fast that it cannot be seen, making those who witness it think the user is attacking with their spirit instead. It draws a heavy toll on the user's body, but it is extremely powerful[175]. One of the Nadashinkage's tightest-guarded secrets, only Kiichi and Son-O have learned it.
  • Same as above.
• Gentotsu (Phantom Impact): An attack that directs energy onto the foe, blasting them from afar with a fist-shaped wave of air[74]. Can be used in conjunction with Tamasuberi to redirect the foe's energy at them[87].
  • This grants Kiichi a ranged attack, which means Daniel can't really disengage at all from the fight.
• Kaikan-Ken (Matter Penetration Fist):[73] The Hakkei (A ki technique that shoots energy through the target, hurting their insides[182])'s energy is manipulated and redirected as the user wishes, even into the victim's vital organs, though Kiichi usually uses it for less lethal though extremely painful purposes[183]. One of Kiichi's most frequently used moves.
  • Very versatile (can effectively land on much of the body and still work since its energy can be redirected at will), can lead to a one-shot incap by attacking the brain, and possibly might not be copiable by Daniel (not sure about how our verse equal stuff works here).
• Katamari Nuki Ken (Massive Fist): A shockwave attack that travels under the skin to the brain[184].
  • Same as above, but considered to be better (not really explained why).
• Energy Shield: Nadashinkage practitioners can form an energy shield around their bodies to lessen blows[54].
  • Yep. I got nothin' to say they can just do that.
• Kime-Sorame (Eye in the Sky):[39] The ability to observe the ongoing fight from a third person perspective, in slow motion[187], fighting in a nearly unconscious state[188]. Kiichi has completely mastered this technique[124], and can use it to fight even with all of his senses completely distorted and neutralized[189], gaining full control over any fight[190].
  • This may not seem too strong at a glance but read the scans, it might be his absolute best technique. Multiple times, even with Kiichi being otherwise completely unable to fight, activating this turned some of his hardest fights into total stomps where they couldn't land a single hit, he even dodged Son-O's Falcon Foot kicks, which have the same properties as his Tiger's Paw Strike, except faster. He effectively has a full, slow motion view of the battle which basically gives him all the time he wants to analyze every bit of it, and as he's attacking he can view and react to any adjustments his foes try instantaneously. It's effectively a TAS, if you're familiar with the concept.
• Go No Sen: Kiichi can react to attacks before they even begin[77].
  • Precog is always useful. I honestly don't know if this is even supposed to be skill-based, the last few chapters of Tough get pretty surreal.

 

[Armorchompy]

By the way, since you mentioned Systema, in a somewhat recent chapter of the new series it's pointed out how Systema and Nadashinkage share a lot of similarities. I don't have the scans on hand at the moment, but if needed I can go look for them, though it'd take a bit.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I appreciate it, thanks. I'd say Tough's very good yeah, the original series, Koukou Tekkenden Tough, starts slightly rough but quickly develops an incredible sense of choreography in fights, and I'd say the story's good too, it ain't Shakespeare but it works well at getting you pumped for the next fight. It's not quite fully translated but translation has resumed recently, and what is there is already worth reading IMO. It has some of the absolute best portrayal of grappling in fiction, IMO.

After that is Tough (just Tough, this one's fully translated though the quality of the TL varies between arcs) which is a bit darker, and while I think it's still worth reading it does do less "realistic" combat (original Tough was over the top but, odd pseudoscience aside, was definitely based on real concepts) and instead opts for more chi-focused quasi-supernatural combat which I personally don't find as compelling. Still good, though. There's a third, ongoing series with a new protagonist but being relatively new I can't tell you too much about it.

Sounds pretty great honestly. Kengan, Lookism, and Batuque are the bigger favorites of mine in martial arts but I'm always looking to add more to the list. How many chapters are we talking? And always a shame with translation limits but ah well. And yeah don't spoil me lol. I'll forget any spoilers usually anyway but still jic

I'll respond to the debate aspect later once I'm free, but as of rn I'm predicting this to be a tie with how things are. Did a minor quick skim

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

By the way, since you mentioned Systema, in a somewhat recent chapter of the new series it's pointed out how Systema and Nadashinkage share a lot of similarities. I don't have the scans on hand at the moment, but if needed I can go look for them, though it'd take a bit.

I'm curious on that, but I think that won't really change much unless it's that important?


Oh and quick thing- Daniel would actually be on the same ballpark of Class 5 due to this calc. Though it's still pending. Since you're a Calculation Group member, would you be able to provide your thoughts here? There's also a Class 10 calc but sadly that's not around. Anyway back to reading about this guy

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Snippet

I won't fully quote you since I feel like that's an easy way to blot out the entire thread.

@ Mimicry

Spoiler: Technique Mimicry

PTJ verse is filled with martial artist experts so I think Daniel would be able to keep up fine. But this style of grappling is likely something he won't mimic with how the fight will go. Still that's impressive.

C&C Situation - Copy the uncopyable

That would be the case but while "Not seeing the attack" Johan is able to copy it. I seriously think that a non-conventional attack is something easy to manage since Johan can copy an uncopy-able technique. Although he had to take an alternative means to mimicking it, it was still the same. Again I'll clarify just in case that Daniel's copying is equal if not superior to Johan.

To add on to that note on it being Uncopyable - Manager Kim notes that one has to master the body postures for it that's been trained your entire life. It's a technique that he has honed for decades. Johan who is a master of copying any martial arts technique he sees (Much like Daniel) failed to copy it initially when he can copy techniques he's seen once. Although that's a bit circular, it still points out the degree of difficulty in copying it.

I also noticed that this feat is how Kiibo gets it. But it's also noted that he wasn't able to master it the first time he used it while Johan is able to use C&C to a degree that he can match a prodigy at it.

Profile Note - You might wanna separate those ability groupings since they're all stacked together tbh.

UI Daniel copied by Johan

Johan's copying is also enough to copy a state of a body that elevates one's physical body and mental properties. UI Mode is essentially one of the strongest forms of Daniel Park, although that's not here this is more of a feat of copying.. To be honest with this in mind, I feel like it's easy enough for Daniel to copy that Bird's Eye view technique of Kiibo. Especially since Daniel already has a similar UI Mode/Instinct reliance mode. So Daniel copying it is not out of question. You can also note that although Johan was unable to copy this for longer than 10 seconds (He pushed himself to have it last even longer though), this is because Johan is more of a glass cannon compared to most characters.

Daniel has a perfect body and can copy many things. So Johan being able to copy this while being physically weaker than UI Daniel, means that you'd have to be massively stronger than Daniel in order to be able to start pushing him to the limit. Even then with the existing AP values, I don't think it's enough to elevate.

I will concede on the chi part tho since no one has really dealt with anything supernatural yet. But if it's something that one can apply through physical techniques it might be possible. But I don't think we have to worry about that since Kiibo feels somewhat Kenshiro-esque.

TLDR - Power mimicry in PTJ verse is such a BS ability that literal geniuses like Zack Lee (Someone who's a prodigious infighter and outfighter) are massively outdone by this. Techniques that takes an undefined amount of time (but long) to master, is something Daniel can copy upon seeing. He will be able to use any technique he sees that he dodges. I'd have said that these two are equal on copying, but it's noted that someone with a slightly difficult physical state as Kiibo was enough to make it so his attack wasn't "master level" unlike Johan.

Some final notes - Daniel himself is capable of copying stats and becoming faster and stronger on what he sees.

@ LS Note

That would be the case but Daniel is long overdue for his Class 5 LS.

Out of curiosity though, would you say this is Class 5 or Class 10? A friend estimated it to be around that, to be on the level that you can push an entire rotating room with a single arm.

@ Kiichi's Stat Up

Eh Plot armor we don't really consider here. Also that is useful to develop a new technique- but the stat amp is still gonna build up on Daniel's end.

Surprisingly no. Not just stat based. He instinctually developed the ability to reflect an attack back to someone, manages to master out how to use a weapon despite it being his first time using it, and even develop resistances to being electrocuted after some exposure to it. All of that are also on his listed profile on the resistances and Reactive Evolution section. I'll also note that it's very likely that any technique Kiichi develops would be something Daniel would use too.

@ Copying is useful but not on starting with default

I'd have to agree. Sounds like many of Kiichi's moves are quite deadly if they hit.

However that would be countered by Daniel's own instincts listed on his profile. The only really big thing Daniel likely can't copy is the ones that use ki, but it's not necessary.

@ Pressure Point

Fair on that.

That said monstrous stamina is pretty vague. Daniel was literally tortured for days with no food and no drink, and despite being poisoned he was alive for that amount of time. The stamina feats he has on his profile are quite nice and great for pain resistance also but I feel like they're about even really. I'm bias to saying Daniel is superior because one of the lesser characters in PTJ verse can continuously fight for a month. (Yes the stamina section should be updated but as you can see PTJ Verse is undergoing major revisions rn)

@ Pressure point superiority

Nah that part I'd concede on. However Daniel's attacks are still notably effective. The force field is an issue.


Now the abilities part.

Spoiler: Abilities

@ Grappling

This one's tricky. But there's a very easy solution to this. One being that Daniel is long deserving of Class 5, but that's mostly irrelevant since the second part is easy.

Two, don't get grabbed. Daniel is notable for being very evasive and avoiding attacks from hitting him. He's just like Yu (The Boxer) whom I might recc for this fight to happen.

With the degree of Instinctive Reaction has, he should be able to handle this just fine. I'd also note that Daniel himself can overcome people with instinctive reactions much like him so this is reasonable for him to dodge

@ Majority of techniques

A majority of these are dangerous one shot attacks. However I think they fall in the same zone of needing to hit in order to make contact. I'm not gonna argue against them oneshotting Daniel, although I feel like he could block or deflect them somewhat.

Residual Wave is dangerous if it hits to the head, Bakutanken is dangerous to the chest,

@ Isunboshi

LMAO. I'm sorry man, but Daniel would do the same and then it would just be an awkward fingering that would make Azontr proud.

@ Tiger Paw Strike

Err. It's praised as an undodgeable attack but that seems contradicted by the two of them dodging after. I feel like this is more of a feat of sheer speed they have to be honest. On that note using such an abiilty would essentially allow Daniel to copy it too. Again one doesn't have to see the ability in order to mimic it. That said I noticed on the Tiger Fist/Unseen Fist that it looks like they were able to intercept each other too. So it's more likely just a feat of speed rather than actually being undodgeable despite speed being equal or close.

@Unseen Fist

That's actually very similar to Invisible Attacks. I don't have the proper links rn but essentially even high level fighters who's technical level is comparable to "Being taught by the best of China" doesn't allow you to intercept such an attack. Sinu Han and only 2 or 3 other individuals are able to master such a technique in the entire world. I'll also add that in order to be able to defend to this, you'd have to reach a Level of Mastery where you have essentially reached a whole new level of fighting capability.

So if it's the case Daniel who has reached Mastery on his lesser talented body would be able to react to this. Also I'll add on that speed equal won't persist since the speed equalization rules allow Daniel to get faster during his fight.

@ Gentotsu

Yeah no I'd concede on this one for now unless PTJ changes.

But that should be dodgeable.

@ Kaikan-Ken

This one I'm thinking might be a possible one to copy. But for now I'll witthold.

@ Go no Sen

Hm... I mean that's been used to describe Instinctive Reaction I feel if you read it literally. But the whole Link to pain thing is tricky. This would allow him to compete with Daniel's Analytical Prediction and Instinctive Reaction though.

Spoiler: So how can Daniel win?

Imgur is starting to get clunky on me so I'm gonna have to rely on the stuff that already exists on his page and using words instead.

Systema is still a factor here. Someone who literally shakes off explosions and being hit by metal weapons feel pain from Systema, and that's still going to sting here. It's not oneshot level, but it's still going to hurt since it still hits through the nerves and transfers pain that way "Martial arts deliver the power through the shortest route". I see this reasonably being copied but it's still an effective way to fight especially when the stat difference becomes notable.

Instinctive disregard. Daniel's unpredictability is noted to be his key specialty. On that link is his fight against Yuseong who doesn't know how to fight, yet can instinctually defend from attacks that he doesn't even see. He does that a lot. Notably James Lee, is THE genius of Lookism and is one of the god tiers. He's on levels above prodigies who have already reached Mastery. There's a massive skill scaling chain but even like that James Lee is one of the dodgiest fellows in Lookism. This is to the point that he had to handicap himself and "Let them hit him once" in a particular arc otherwise he'd just steamroll them. Yet even with that in mind, Daniel was able to harm him. James Lee who was able to dodge attacks that would repeatedly reach Yuseong, was hit by such an attack.

The only other time James Lee was hit was when Taesoo Ma fought him and that was because of a sheer stat gap which didn't last long either.

James Lee is also a practicioner of Invisible Attacks so it's kinda notable.

To add on, his instinctive reaction is useful. I'll just post this a few more. But even lesser individuals have a similar degree of Instincts.

- Not really a top tier defending against an ambush attack out of nowhere -

- 2 Mid tiers while they were busy talking dodges an attack

- Even early on Daniel is able to instinctually defend (1) (2) 2 is amazing tho and yet later on mid tiers like Zack was able to overwhelm him, before he proceeds to become even better than them. More on Zack later.

- Jake Kim who can precog/see attacks that hit him before they happen, cannot even hit Daniel once. Yes technically Daniel got grabbed but he would counter every single one of their attacks and not take damage at all. (Though this feat is performed on UI mode, a similar degree of Instincts is there)

Anyway here's the link

Now... Is power mimicry going to be useful here? Eh... Only for some techniques. The chi attacks are mostly one shot attacks and Daniel would likely not be able to copy them. Even his attack reflection, damage reduction, and conventional attacks won't be able to get through. He has the capability to tag and be unpredictable to dodge Kiibo. But that's an eternal stalemate where he's just waiting to be hit otherwise.

So how does he win?

Sheer reactive evolution and accelerated development. As shown here, Daniel repeatedly gets stronger in a fight. This isn't something that was just said "He gets stronger every time he fights". He literally copies speed, strength, and so on everytime he fights and even if he "can't copy" anything, he just gets stronger and faster when he's overwhelmed. He has done this twice in a row of getting stomped before outmatching them, and again and again. That was in the past so he would simply get stronger and faster in a fight. This is the key reason why I think he would start to overwhelm Kiibo despite his amazing level of haxx. The constant speed and strength up that Daniel would get would just keep going, and essentially overwhelm Kiibo to the point that even if he has amazing instincts and even precog, he's going to get overwhelmed.

To add on - Supernatural Willpower on his profile would actually revive him from being knocked out once. It happened before and it basically jumpstarted his Heat Mode. It's not going to be too relevant, but it would be helpful on giving him an emergency lifeline.

I'll be honest, this is taxing to me. That's nearly 2 hours of work.

I'm actually going to change my vote from Daniel to a tie since both have clear winning routes. Kiibo has an advantage early due to oneshot techniques, but the stat amps on Daniel's state has no limit so he's going to outmatch him more and more later on. The main reason why I still think Daniel can win tbh is because I'm not so sure if Kiibo is using his best techniques right on the get go. From what I see on some of his fights, he's not abusing his oneshot moves?

Either way I think this is all I can say here since I really don't like long debates lol and I'm perpetually busy now. I'll msg you once I start reading Kiibo's manga tho since he seems fun.

Have you pitted him against Baki yet?

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm curious on that, but I think that won't really change much unless it's that important?

Probably not, but I do want to point out that Systema is something Kiichi would be very familiar with.

Oh and quick thing- Daniel would actually be on the same ballpark of Class 5 due to this calc. Though it's still pending. Since you're a Calculation Group member, would you be able to provide your thoughts here? There's also a Class 10 calc but sadly that's not around. Anyway back to reading about this guy

You didn't link the calc.

Sounds pretty great honestly. Kengan, Lookism, and Batuque are the bigger favorites of mine in martial arts but I'm always looking to add more to the list. How many chapters are we talking? And always a shame with translation limits but ah well. And yeah don't spoil me lol. I'll forget any spoilers usually anyway but still jic

It's like, Baki-levels long. Wikipedia lists it as the 44th longest manga ever, and that's without considering the new series which is technically a spinoff.

I won't fully quote you since I feel like that's an easy way to blot out the entire thread.

Very very fair.

Now, I am going to do exactly that

@ Copy the uncopiable

Un-conventional is fair, but physically impossible is another. It's stressed pretty often how without the Whatever's Foot, you can't do the cool kicks the Miyazawas can do. Even if he did copy those kicks, it would ultimately be inferior unless you can prove Kiichi's severely inferior in skill.

As for Kiichi's issues with copying Cobra Sword, that's an early Kiichi, and there's other feats. Ryusei, for example, despite being significantly inferior to Kiichi's skill level by the time of Tough's end, could not only copy Cobra Sword after witnessing it like once or twice, on his first try, but also improve it, despite Galhad starting as superior in skill to him, at the beginning of the fight. I mainly just wanted to stick to Kiichi's own feats for his profile.

@ Daniel copying Sky Eye

He'd need to realize it's happening in the first place. Even for people with insane info analysis and previous knowledge of the Sky Eye, it takes them the whole fight to realize Kiichi's achieved it, at which point the guy he's fighting, who also has that same knowledge and analysis (or better), has almost lost completely.


@ Daniel copying Monster's Foot Kicks

Well it's not really about perfection per se, it's really just a made up verse thing that grants superhuman flexibility of the foot. Which I don't think we should assume by default Daniel can have (perfect =/= superhuman), and while Johan may be frailer, unless there's indication of the contrary I would suppose entering that body-boosting mode would be draining on anyone with similar mechanics.

Out of curiosity though, would you say this is Class 5 or Class 10? A friend estimated it to be around that, to be on the level that you can push an entire rotating room with a single arm.

That's... difficult to tell, you'd need to try and figure out how smooth the machinery is, you're not really lifting it and it's designed to be as easy to turn as possible... it's probably superhuman but I couldn't tell you how much, and I don't think it could be calced. Definitely do use it as support for the LS upgrade.

@ Plot Armor and AD/RPL stuff

That was a bit of a joke, but it effectively works like that, it's a canonical power that he has that, every time he's losing, he instinctively comes up with the right technique, or modifies a pre-existing one to create it. In this situation, it'd probably be some pressure point attack or something else that can lead to a quick KO.

Instincts aren't an insta-dodge, ultimately Kiichi goes up against people who're amazing at dodging too and he hits them anyways. It's worth nothing that while I'm sure this counts for Daniel too, he's actually a pretty great strategist, in fact I can see him doing something like pretending to use a move Daniel's seen only to modify it at the last moment to land a shot.

@ Stamina

Not saying that isn't impressive, but the torture bit at least is something people have survived IRL. Not saying he's not superhuman, but, y'know. Fighting for one month is admittedly incredibly impressive, probably more than anything in Tough, though it would depend on how it was done. Regardless, even if Kiichi isn't superior in stamina, his own endurance does mean he has a long time to figure out some way to take out Daniel.

@ Instincts

I should note, Kiichi himself has some pretty impressive instincts, he can fight while completely unconscious (and even gets better while he is) and dodge combos of weapon attacks via instinct (scan where he gets hurt is before he figures it out), and the guy dishing them out is comparable in skill to him at that point. Even without considering that Daniel is going to need to attack at some point and enter Kiichi's range, I don't think the claim of him being capable of dodging literally everything really stands unless we're assuming he's that much better as an overall fighter.

There's definitely counterplay to his pressure points stuff, they do require precision. But it's still a very effective means of KO that Daniel lacks.

@ Tiger Paw Strike

That's... yeah, good point, dunno how they did that. If I had to theorize though, it might be aimdodging, blocking the kick before it really happens, which isn't something Daniel has the ability to do on the first time since he doesn't know it exists by then. It's at least one guaranteed hit. It's a bit messily handled as a concept, but the people who don't know of it seem to be unable to dodge it.

@ Kaikan-Ken

Uhh, I dunno, on one hand it's just a strike but the strike does lead to basically a beam of energy. Even if he does Kiichi holds the advantage for a while as he knows how to redirect it, and if Daniel lands it on him he can shoot it back through his body on to him.

@ System

Quick note, Nadashinkage also has a mechanic going on that makes its strikes hurt more than regular ones.

@ Unpredictability/Instincts

I'll do the same you did and post some feats from fighters inferior to Kiichi. Ryusei, who's relatively weak, especially at this point, is capable of dodging in complete darkness (this is showing how the technique works), and even when blindfolded his instincts will sense power levels of those nearby. In fact that whole thing he did when copying Galhad's Cobra Sword, that was blindfolded too, and before he learned to train his chi to fight in the darkness, after which he can basically see.

I still would say Lookism IR is a little better, maybe? But I don't think it's a massive gap. As for unpredictability... I'd say Kiichi's dealt with pretty unconventional fighters, and Info Analysis would come in handy.

@ Accelerated Development

Would the copying stuff apply here? Kiichi's only slightly stronger and equally as fast. Although, I suppose he might still get stronger/faster through the second thing. Yeah that is definitely a very useful thing Kiichi doesn't have a direct counter to, though he might be able to figure out what's going on and not feed into it any more.

@ Willpower

As detailed above Kiichi himself can fight while unconscious, which is similar in effect, so I'd say they're equal in having a second chance.

I'm actually going to change my vote from Daniel to a tie since both have clear winning routes. Kiibo has an advantage early due to oneshot techniques, but the stat amps on Daniel's state has no limit so he's going to outmatch him more and more later on. The main reason why I still think Daniel can win tbh is because I'm not so sure if Kiibo is using his best techniques right on the get go. From what I see on some of his fights, he's not abusing his oneshot moves?

I'd say it's fair to say he doesn't come out of the gate swinging with them, he starts fighting conventionally, and only pulls out the goofy stuff when needed, though that can be very quickly oftentimes, he doesn't hesitate to bust them out.

If you don't think any of what I posted here changes things drastically, I'm fine with voting Incon though I think Kiichi holds an advantage.

Either way I think this is all I can say here since I really don't like long debates lol and I'm perpetually busy now. I'll msg you once I start reading Kiibo's manga tho since he seems fun.

By all means, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as you read it. By the way, if you're taking recommendations, there's a martial arts series I like even more than Tough, "Teppuu/Iron Wind". It's really short, but it's very well choreographed and surprisingly great at character work.

Have you pitted him against Baki yet?

Hoo, I think he stomps 9-B Baki, but it could be fun with stats equal. There's a character who'd make a good thematic match with Yujiro, too. Maybe.

 

[Armorchompy]

apologies for the text wall

 

[cloudyagami]

Ok, so, as for some of Kiichi's best techniques:

• Grappling as a whole... there isn't really one technique that stands out but if you look at all of them you can see just how versatile Kiichi is, the second he's even beginning a grapple there's dozens of moves and counter-moves at his disposal which is particularly dangerous for Daniel given the LS advantage, which removes a lot of the possible counterplay.
• Residual Wave:[40] A mysterious technique of the Black Dragon Temple that leaves a mark in one's brain[159] which can later be triggered with certain sounds and induces incredible agony in the victim[48], and can even used to cause hallucinations[49]. In reality, it is performed through a vibration that invades the victim's brain and leaves it feeling "backwards"[160].
  • Effectively a one-tap incap.
• Bakutanken (Exploding Vermillion Fist):[44] Kiibo strikes the foe's chest, releasing all the ki gathered there and causing it to explode across their internal organs[32].
  • Believe it or not, this isn't lethal, but it is another sure-fire incap.
• Isunboshi: A finger jab to the opponent's orifices (ears, nose or anus), which inflicts serious injury by hitting the vital points within them[158].
  • This one isn't that strong, but I want you to know Daniel must live in fear of Kiichi shoving a finger up his ass.
• Tiger's Paw Strike:[75] A kick only possible for those who have the Monster's Foot, this kick is so fast it is impossible to react to and causes the target to feel as if time has stopped[170], while in reality they've already been struck by it. It is also invisible on high speed cameras[171] and equal in speed and power to Oton's Tiger Paw Strike[172]. Kiichi can utilize it with both legs[173] and perform up to five kicksin a single leap[123].
  • Effectively, this is a nearly undodgeable move, with speed equal Daniel can't really see it happening, even aside all the weird perception manip shenanigans.
• Unseen Fist:[174] A punch that moves so fast that it cannot be seen, making those who witness it think the user is attacking with their spirit instead. It draws a heavy toll on the user's body, but it is extremely powerful[175]. One of the Nadashinkage's tightest-guarded secrets, only Kiichi and Son-O have learned it.
  • Same as above.
• Gentotsu (Phantom Impact): An attack that directs energy onto the foe, blasting them from afar with a fist-shaped wave of air[74]. Can be used in conjunction with Tamasuberi to redirect the foe's energy at them[87].
  • This grants Kiichi a ranged attack, which means Daniel can't really disengage at all from the fight.
• Kaikan-Ken (Matter Penetration Fist):[73] The Hakkei (A ki technique that shoots energy through the target, hurting their insides[182])'s energy is manipulated and redirected as the user wishes, even into the victim's vital organs, though Kiichi usually uses it for less lethal though extremely painful purposes[183]. One of Kiichi's most frequently used moves.
  • Very versatile (can effectively land on much of the body and still work since its energy can be redirected at will), can lead to a one-shot incap by attacking the brain, and possibly might not be copiable by Daniel (not sure about how our verse equal stuff works here).
• Katamari Nuki Ken (Massive Fist): A shockwave attack that travels under the skin to the brain[184].
  • Same as above, but considered to be better (not really explained why).
• Energy Shield: Nadashinkage practitioners can form an energy shield around their bodies to lessen blows[54].
  • Yep. I got nothin' to say they can just do that.
• Kime-Sorame (Eye in the Sky):[39] The ability to observe the ongoing fight from a third person perspective, in slow motion[187], fighting in a nearly unconscious state[188]. Kiichi has completely mastered this technique[124], and can use it to fight even with all of his senses completely distorted and neutralized[189], gaining full control over any fight[190].
  • This may not seem too strong at a glance but read the scans, it might be his absolute best technique. Multiple times, even with Kiichi being otherwise completely unable to fight, activating this turned some of his hardest fights into total stomps where they couldn't land a single hit, he even dodged Son-O's Falcon Foot kicks, which have the same properties as his Tiger's Paw Strike, except faster. He effectively has a full, slow motion view of the battle which basically gives him all the time he wants to analyze every bit of it, and as he's attacking he can view and react to any adjustments his foes try instantaneously. It's effectively a TAS, if you're familiar with the concept.
• Go No Sen: Kiichi can react to attacks before they even begin[77].
  • Precog is always useful. I honestly don't know if this is even supposed to be skill-based, the last few chapters of Tough get pretty surreal.

Yeah he is busted some of these are more potent than Baki Hanma techniques

 

[cloudyagami]

These are the type of matchups i enjoy!! Detailed, unbiased and fluently explained. Well done you 2 @Armorchompy @Ciruno_Fortes_(COB). So @Ciruno_Fortes_(COB) is your final vote Daniel or Neutral?

 

[azontr]

Following cause Martial Arts characters are ******* based

I considered reading Tough but that shit to long icl.

 

[Armorchompy]

By the way, I found the Systema vs Nadashinkage fight. I'm not gonna post the whole thing even though it is quite cool, but here's some stuff related to the two styles being compared, it happens in a flashback, one of the more important characters wants to test which is better so he can study it himself so he hires a master Systema fighter to fight Kiichi's dad. The Russian dude only has one arm but he's probably in the verse's top 10 strongest lol, he's really cool. Anyways, they fight for a bit, ultimately Mikhail's KO blow fails, and Oton gets up from it, then his pressure point strike knocks him out for good, so I think that's meant to show that Nadashin is superior. Then again, it's also being used by a dude with two arms, so I feel like he had a bit of an advantage there.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I just woke up and won't be available for the day so just to address a few points-

Curious on Iron Wind! And yeah Tough being Baki level means it'll be lower on my reading list but still something I'd check out lol.

And whoops here's the link. Must've reset when I did it before.

Also @cloudyagami Nah Im going with tie in the end. Ill adress some few points I agree and disagree with later but yeah this is the tyoe of debate I like lol. Though a bit exhausting for me nowadays.

I'll get back to you soon

Oh and bummer on the room thing but ah well no biggie

 

[cloudyagami]

Following cause Martial Arts characters are ******* based

Literally the best kind of characters imo, the poses, fight commentary, personalities etc always are dope

I considered reading Tough but that shit to long icl.

 

[cloudyagami]

I just woke up and won't be available for the day so just to address a few points-

Curious on Iron Wind! And yeah Tough being Baki level means it'll be lower on my reading list but still something I'd check out lol.

And whoops here's the link. Must've reset when I did it before.

Also @cloudyagami Nah Im going with tie in the end. Ill adress some few points I agree and disagree with later but yeah this is the tyoe of debate I like lol. Though a bit exhausting for me nowadays.

I'll get back to you soon

Oh and bummer on the room thing but ah well no biggie

Okay thanks for your consistent input, can always rely on good answers from you.

 

[Armorchompy]

Curious on Iron Wind!

If you're like an in-depth look at it I really like Super Eyepatch Wolf's video on Teppuu, he sold me on it and he describes it way better than I could. But the gist of it is that the protagonist is the sort of character you'd normally see as an antagonist/rival, she's a genius who doesn't need to work as hard as others to achieve what she wants, and has a sort of superiority complex from that, but as the series goes on you sort of begin to learn more about her and begin to see why she is the way that she is, I really like her as a character.

As for the fighting, it actually has a very realistic (if still a bit exaggerated for the sake of style) portrayal on women's MMA, they put a lot of detail and explanation into every single bit of technique, it also does grappling really well, which again is a rarity. It unfortunately had to end prematurely due to health issues from the author, which is a shame, but I still like the ending as is.

 

[cloudyagami]

Bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I intend to respond tonight. Been busy all week

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

First response

Fair on Systema. That said he doesn't need to worry too much about it until Daniel starts getting on the higher AP level.

Link the Calc - I linked it now on the new post above. Thanks for clarifying it! I don't think the change in LS is going to be a game changer, but it helps make the fight more even. Though grappling would not be the direction this fight goes. I feel like it'll still head to the game of cat and mouse where Daniel's goal is to get stronger and Kiibo's goal is to use his higher end haxx.

@ Baki level long

Dang that's chunky. That'll definitely take me some time. Still, I'll update you how it goes. If I start now it might end up like that time I binged Invincibles (Comic)

@ Copy Discussion

That seems fair. Is Kiichi superior to Ryusei in terms of copying? I'm wondering if there's a possibiilty of him being more proficient in copying than Kiichi. That said in the end it looks like they'll be copying each other's moves a lot. Or at least what's doable.

@ Sky Eye

From what I saw weren't the enemies witnessing that too?

Daniel actually has the Ultra Instinct Mode, which despite the separate keys he would actually have access to. I plan to fix that issue in the current revisions. Anyway I think it's reasonable for him to figure it out, especially when Daniel already has a similar Instinctual Awareness passively on his earlier stages. Although it's likely Kiichi's instincts at this point overshadowed that, a lot of enemies in PTJ verse have also overcome that level of instincts when fighting Daniel, yet he currently stands as one of the dodgiest individuals.

If it's not copyable I think it shouldn't change the fight too much since in the end I feel like they have similar instinct reactions.

@ Monster Foot

Well Johan did literally have to flare up his muscles and nerves in order to be close to Daniel's level, claiming his body was overwhelmingly strong. (Wifi is really bad rn it's why this msg is late so I can't rely on pics too much). Still I do agree just because someone is perfect on one verse doesn't mean they can copy anything from another ( See Chi moves)

Class 10 LS was discussed, I did hear of a method from Elaj but that's only fair.

@ Plot Armor

Yeah I should've specified I was messing around too lol. Slipped my mind. In that case yeah, Daniel and Kiichi really are similar lol. Daniel learning attack deflection for the first time oneshotted (or would have if not for the intrusion of Jake Kim) a person that had a larger weight division. (Pardon me if I'm messing up my English it's late here)

Usually but Daniel's instincts are notably good. Not to mention Daniel's instinct level feat was performed in the pre-200s of Lookism before he ended up fighting people who can tag him, and he only got even more evasive then. Even in his more ineffective real body he can dodge quite well. Add that with his unpredictability and I think it's why it makes him hard to tag and avoid. That said Kiichi seems like the few people who can actually deal with Daniel's unpredictable attacks due to the sheer effectiveness of his Bird's Eye view. Daniel himself is actually capable of said attacks that change at the last moment.

I swear these two feel like twins lol.

@ Stamina

Fair fair. I'm sure there were breaks in it, but it was performed between a literal one man army (Manager Kim) and a Main character Warren, so there's some argument to say Daniel can't be as long as that. But yeah, this isn't going to be a stamina battle. In the end it's a dangerous tightrope between the two where it depends on if the battle stays short or long.

@ Instincts

Ultra Instinct Daniel is the same lol @ unconscious and is more effective. That said I have to finish revisions before I can really use this in this thread so don't worry too much about that. But yeah Daniel is in a similar ballpark at least. Although that might be the case, even back then Daniel can focus entirely on defense like in his fight against Vasco and even Taegon. But I do see your point and it's why Daniel being pushed and being unable to attack will be a driving key to him gaining the speed and strength to overwhelm since at some point there's only so much instincts can do before the speed gap becomes too much.

Fair on that!

@ Tiger Paw

All good! And eh Daniel would have that via instincts lol thanks to Invisible Attack.

@Kaikan-ken

You know what fair lol. There has to be something massively different to happen in PTJ verse for him to be able to copy this.

@ Systema

Oh yeah that's quite similar honestly.

@ Unpredictability Sequel

Damn that is seriously impressive and badass too. It's definitely good tho, but I'm still confident that yeah Lookism is a little bit better. It's definitely not a massive gap. That's only fair. Though fighters with unpredictable attack patterns (like Eli Jang) exist who cannot tag Gun Park in any way, yet Daniel can tag him and earns praise from one of the few god tiers in the verse.

@ Accel Develpment

Not sure what you mean, like Kiichi copying the power up? I don't think so since it's not necessarily a technique and is just how his body is. It's not like a fighting style or move and I'm not sure Kiichi has copied anything similar. Cobra Strike is an uncopyable attack but that is an attack and not specifically an ability so I'm going to have to say no.

@ Willpower

Fair enough! Seriously the amount of similar abilities is kinda funny

@ Strategy

Fair fair, I think that's what makes me think that this match can go either way.

I'll cement that I vote for a tie again here just in case.

@ Systema Fight

Oh yeah that's actually damn badass. That Russian guy appears more times or nah is that his only appearance? Also fair on the two arms thing lol. Still what a badass.

@ Baki

Bummer! Still, stat equalized matches are indeed fun.

@ Final Thoughts

Yeah like I said I'll definitely update you. And all good on the text wall too lol, I made more I feel.

Tepuu and Tough I'll keep an eye on.

In return I want to recommend Batuque just because of the capoeira fighting style being the main fighting technique of the female lead there. Its art is a bit rough at the beginning but I feel like it gets more beautiful as it goes on. There's also a variety of other fighting styles there and although I haven't read it in awhile, it is short enough I feel.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fair on Systema. That said he doesn't need to worry too much about it until Daniel starts getting on the higher AP level.

Link the Calc - I linked it now on the new post above. Thanks for clarifying it! I don't think the change in LS is going to be a game changer, but it helps make the fight more even. Though grappling would not be the direction this fight goes. I feel like it'll still head to the game of cat and mouse where Daniel's goal is to get stronger and Kiibo's goal is to use his higher end haxx.

I mean, I think grappling occupies a similar position as the hax, ultimately all Kiichi needs is one good hold to completely disable a limb and then choke him out.

Dang that's chunky. That'll definitely take me some time. Still, I'll update you how it goes. If I start now it might end up like that time I binged Invincibles (Comic)

@ Copy Discussion

That seems fair. Is Kiichi superior to Ryusei in terms of copying? I'm wondering if there's a possibiilty of him being more proficient in copying than Kiichi. That said in the end it looks like they'll be copying each other's moves a lot. Or at least what's doable.

It's not a particular talent of Ryusei, and Kiichi is WAY better as a fighter, so I'd say he's comparable at minimum.

@ Sky Eye

From what I saw weren't the enemies witnessing that too?

No, they can't see it, they need to actually figure out it's going on.

Daniel actually has the Ultra Instinct Mode, which despite the separate keys he would actually have access to. I plan to fix that issue in the current revisions. Anyway I think it's reasonable for him to figure it out, especially when Daniel already has a similar Instinctual Awareness passively on his earlier stages. Although it's likely Kiichi's instincts at this point overshadowed that, a lot of enemies in PTJ verse have also overcome that level of instincts when fighting Daniel, yet he currently stands as one of the dodgiest individuals.

If it's not copyable I think it shouldn't change the fight too much since in the end I feel like they have similar instinct reactions.

I guess that may be true to some degree, but even without bringing Kiichi's own instincts (and precog!) in the fray, consciously viewing something at slow motion in my opinion allows you to plan forward better than just reacting automatically.

Fair fair. I'm sure there were breaks in it, but it was performed between a literal one man army (Manager Kim) and a Main character Warren, so there's some argument to say Daniel can't be as long as that. But yeah, this isn't going to be a stamina battle. In the end it's a dangerous tightrope between the two where it depends on if the battle stays short or long.

I might be wrong here, but it feels to me as if Daniel lacks the potential to end the fight as quickly as Kiichi can, albeit stat amp will eventually bring him to that level, and even then Kiichi will still have damage reduction to maybe try and hold the line for as long as he can and let himself and his defensive instincts stuff figure something out

Ultra Instinct Daniel is the same lol @ unconscious and is more effective. That said I have to finish revisions before I can really use this in this thread so don't worry too much about that. But yeah Daniel is in a similar ballpark at least. Although that might be the case, even back then Daniel can focus entirely on defense like in his fight against Vasco and even Taegon. But I do see your point and it's why Daniel being pushed and being unable to attack will be a driving key to him gaining the speed and strength to overwhelm since at some point there's only so much instincts can do before the speed gap becomes too much.

I'm willing to believe ya on the instincts, dw about it.

Kiichi's a pretty smart fighter. Even if he doesn't realize Daniel's instincts stuff, I don't think he'd keep trying stuff that fails against him when all it'd lead to is tiring himself out. I think he'd either hang back himself or bust out some of the more unconventional stuff if he can't land a hit.

All good! And eh Daniel would have that via instincts lol thanks to Invisible Attack.

It does act somewhat similarly to that, yeah.

Damn that is seriously impressive and badass too. It's definitely good tho, but I'm still confident that yeah Lookism is a little bit better. It's definitely not a massive gap. That's only fair. Though fighters with unpredictable attack patterns (like Eli Jang) exist who cannot tag Gun Park in any way, yet Daniel can tag him and earns praise from one of the few god tiers in the verse.

Admittedly that guy, Chosho, is not quite the wildest fighter in the verse, I just think that one panel is very funny, and he's one of my favorite characters.

I think it's fair to say Daniel's better in terms of instincts, although I should note at that point Ryusei gets stomped by Son-O (the guy training him, under a guise), who Kiichi is somewhat superior of, so there's a gap.

Not sure what you mean, like Kiichi copying the power up? I don't think so since it's not necessarily a technique and is just how his body is. It's not like a fighting style or move and I'm not sure Kiichi has copied anything similar. Cobra Strike is an uncopyable attack but that is an attack and not specifically an ability so I'm going to have to say no.

No, I meant the "literally copies speed, strength, and so on everytime he fights"

I'll cement that I vote for a tie again here just in case.

I think I'm sticking with a very difficult win for Kiichi, but if people choose to vote for Incon I'm fine with changing it.

Oh yeah that's actually damn badass. That Russian guy appears more times or nah is that his only appearance? Also fair on the two arms thing lol. Still what a badass.

Only appearance, it's a flashback fight so he just got to go back to his homeland and presumably live in peace. I think that's kinda what makes him cool, he shows up with one arm and almost beats one of the strongest dudes in the verse.

Yeah like I said I'll definitely update you. And all good on the text wall too lol, I made more I feel.

Tepuu and Tough I'll keep an eye on.

In return I want to recommend Batuque just because of the capoeira fighting style being the main fighting technique of the female lead there. Its art is a bit rough at the beginning but I feel like it gets more beautiful as it goes on. There's also a variety of other fighting styles there and although I haven't read it in awhile, it is short enough I feel.

Hm, I might look into it, I do like the premise.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I mean, I think grappling occupies a similar position as the hax, ultimately all Kiichi needs is one good hold to completely disable a limb and then choke him out.

It's not a particular talent of Ryusei, and Kiichi is WAY better as a fighter, so I'd say he's comparable at minimum.

No, they can't see it, they need to actually figure out it's going on.

I guess that may be true to some degree, but even without bringing Kiichi's own instincts (and precog!) in the fray, consciously viewing something at slow motion in my opinion allows you to plan forward better than just reacting automatically.

I might be wrong here, but it feels to me as if Daniel lacks the potential to end the fight as quickly as Kiichi can, albeit stat amp will eventually bring him to that level, and even then Kiichi will still have damage reduction to maybe try and hold the line for as long as he can and let himself and his defensive instincts stuff figure something out

I'm willing to believe ya on the instincts, dw about it.

Kiichi's a pretty smart fighter. Even if he doesn't realize Daniel's instincts stuff, I don't think he'd keep trying stuff that fails against him when all it'd lead to is tiring himself out. I think he'd either hang back himself or bust out some of the more unconventional stuff if he can't land a hit.

It does act somewhat similarly to that, yeah.

Admittedly that guy, Chosho, is not quite the wildest fighter in the verse, I just think that one panel is very funny, and he's one of my favorite characters.

I think it's fair to say Daniel's better in terms of instincts, although I should note at that point Ryusei gets stomped by Son-O (the guy training him, under a guise), who Kiichi is somewhat superior of, so there's a gap.

No, I meant the "literally copies speed, strength, and so on everytime he fights"

I think I'm sticking with a very difficult win for Kiichi, but if people choose to vote for Incon I'm fine with changing it.

Only appearance, it's a flashback fight so he just got to go back to his homeland and presumably live in peace. I think that's kinda what makes him cool, he shows up with one arm and almost beats one of the strongest dudes in the verse.

Hm, I might look into it, I do like the premise.

The issue there is still that one needed grab.

Hm, I'm unsure but I'll trust. They should definitely be comparable but to my eyes being able to copy a move like that while blindfolded is such a unique process.

Fair enough. It's still very similar honestly to UI Daniel who just reacts to everything tossed at him even if they are ambushes. There has been no time Daniel was ever hit in the state like that. But I'll concede on this

@ Slow Motion

True at that. I think at some point though there's just a hard limit that Daniel will eventually reach.

@ End it quickly

That is the case for the early bits of the fight. But the longer the fight goes, it gets really bad for Kiibo. Damage reduction helps but it wouldn't help forever either. Not to mention it gets more and more difficult to tag Daniel the longer the fight goes on, and at that point Daniel would have some of the copyable moves Kiibo has. Early on Daniel can lose in a few hits, however the issue remains on tagging him. Kiibo's one shot moves and the initial closeness of the match is why I think this match becomes a tie rather than Daniel's win.

@ Initials

Ty ty, but what unconventional moves would he be able to do? Daniel can deal with his more unpredictable attacks thanks to the instinct situation. Honestly the two of them tagging each other is difficult when Kiibo's instincts kick into high gear, which I assume only triggers when he gets knocked out once/pushed to the limit.

@ Chosho

I have a feeling he might become my favorite too lol. Fair fair. I think there's a bit more of a unclear scaling there in regards to instincts but that's my cluelessness of the verse talking. I'll take your word for it then mostly since I feel like Daniel pulls slightly ahead

@ Accel/copy

Oh that's what you mean, but yeah. Even if an enemy isn't as strong, the narrator themselves dictates that as long as Daniel is pushed to his limit his body would continue to grow. There's also the fact that both Daniel and Johan exhibits feats of becoming faster and stronger than enemies they fought who had a similar level to them. The main key why Kiibo doesn't go down due to being outadapted is thanks to his amazing instincts and dangerous oneshot moves. Also yeah Heat Mode is still an existing add on to Daniel too.

@ Vote

Fair enough on that. Fun match either way honestly and I hope to see more Kiibo matches where it's like this where it's actually close

@ Flashback fight

Lmao, some characters don't need to shine for very long to be badass.

That reminds me of one character in Lookism where his purpose almost entirely consists of beating up badasses and just going back home (not literally).

@ Recommendation discussion

It's fun, same creators of Usogui.

Let me share some scans

Spoiler: Batuque

Btw have you heard of Kengan Asura? I also want to introduce Lookism but that franchise is always rough and hard to start due to the genre gap between what it is now and in the past

 

[Armorchompy]

Ty ty, but what unconventional moves would he be able to do? Daniel can deal with his more unpredictable attacks thanks to the instinct situation. Honestly the two of them tagging each other is difficult when Kiibo's instincts kick into high gear, which I assume only triggers when he gets knocked out once/pushed to the limit.

Well there's the ranged stuff or the invisible attacks, though it wouldn't be impossible for Dan to dodge the latter, but even among simple strikes he's got stuff developed to slip past defenses, or maybe just try to overwhelm his guard with a rush. Hell, he could even do stuff like purposefully get himself caught in what would be a grapple, only to turn the situation in his favor with his ability to disjoint basically any joint at will and begin a grapple of his own.

Btw have you heard of Kengan Asura? I also want to introduce Lookism but that franchise is always rough and hard to start due to the genre gap between what it is now and in the past

I have but I'm a hipster, I refuse to ever check out popular stuff under any circumstance whatsoever (not really it just didn't specifically appeal to me beyond "martial arts manga that is probably pretty good"), I actually don't read much manga or comics.

 

[Armorchompy]

bump, i'd like to get some votes on this

 

[cloudyagami]

bump, i'd like to get some votes on this

Same, bump

 

[Armorchompy]

bump

 

[cloudyagami]

bump

i will tag this fight in the lookism discussion to get more people

 

[Tllmbrg]

Kiibo fra

 

[cloudyagami]

Kiibo fra

Vote counted

 

[akasakelucilfer]

Kiibo FRA listed by @Armorchompy