Daizenshuu Multipliers

[Warren_Valion]

I was told by another member that the Daizenshuu multipliers are not used here on VS Battles, and I'd like to confirm whether it's true or not as I haven't seen anything saying that they aren't used.

And I'd like to ask why aren't they used, and would suggest making it a note for others.

For reminder the multipliers are:

Great Ape: Base x 10

Super Saiyan: Base x 50

Super Saiyan 2: Base x 100

Super Saiyan 3: Base x 400

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

None of them are used except the Kaioken and maybe Great Ape since both of them are expicitly stated in the manga.

 

[Warren_Valion]

So the Daizenshuu is just not used here at all?

Why is that?

The Super Saiyan multiplier is seemingly very accurate.

As Frieza at half strength was able to take an attack from Kaio-Ken x20 Goku. And Super Saiyan Goku is greater than Frieza, so it's accurate to say he got 50x stronger.

I'll admit that Super Saiyan 2 and 3's multipliers are unfounded, but it could very well be accurate.


And as I said in my post, shouldn't there be a note or something about this. I haven't found a single person who doesn't use the multipliers, and I'm a little dumbfounded that they are not used here.

 

[FanofRPGs]

They are accurate for power levels, but no more. We can accept SSJ > KKx20, but we don't know how much

 

[Aceraspire]

What doesn't make sense is that SSJ2 is just 100% stronger than SSJ

It just doesn't sound right

 

[FanofRPGs]

What doesn't make sense is that SSJ2 is just 100% stronger than SSJ
It just doesn't sound right

Let's put it this way

MSSJ Goku: 1

50% Cell: 1.25

MSSJ Gohan: 1.5

100% Cell: 2.5

SSJ2 Gohan: 3

Not that large of a boost, but Cell is weaker by a decent portion, plus Gohan was under a lot of rage so it might be more like a 4 or 5

 

[Therefir]

I think that gohan was stronger than cell before his transformation, but he decided not to fight.

 

[Warren_Valion]

They are accurate for power levels, but no more. We can accept SSJ > KKx20, but we don't know how much

That doesn't make sense.

Power levels are the amount of strength one has in numerical form.

How can the multipliers work for power levels but not the characters?

And why aren't the multipliers used, there's nothing contradiction them, and half of them are stated in the show or make sense through power scaling. The Daizenshuu is an official guide approved by Toriyama, as long as nothing stated in them directly contradicts the source material, then it should be used, right?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Country levei farm with shotgun if we use power levels.

 

[SomebodyData]

With the exception of SSJ, all of the numbers were extremely contradictory I believe was the issue.

 

[Theglassman12]

There's a reason why Akira Toriyama ditched power levels in the frieza saga. Also in the daizenshuu, they do the ssj multipliers on base form goku in the frieza saga, basically assuming that Goku has never gotten stronger than he is when he faced frieza, which is BS since he was able to keep up with perfect cell in ssj.

 

[Warren_Valion]

With the exception of SSJ, all of the numbers were extremely contradictory I believe was the issue.

Super Saiyan 2 and 3's multipliers are unfounded yes, but where are they contradictory?

 

[SomebodyData]

A boost of 2x is barely anything, Gohan literally goes from ~USSJ Trunks level to pulverizing Cell Jrs from going SSJ2 for example, that is a massive gap that is no way just 2x. SSJ3 Goku nearly brutalizes Fat Buu with his mere punches while having massive energy issues, but SSJ2 Vegeta's self-destruct isn't enough to take him down.

 

[Warren_Valion]

There's a reason why Akira Toriyama ditched power levels in the frieza saga. Also in the daizenshuu, they do the ssj multipliers on base form goku in the frieza saga, basically assuming that Goku has never gotten stronger than he is when he faced frieza, which is BS since he was able to keep up with perfect cell in ssj.

I thought Toriyama ditched power levels because he didn't want the outcome of every battle known beforehand because of the characters' power level?

And the Daizenshuu only shows the power level of Goku up till the Frieza Saga, but IIRC nothing states that Goku never gets stronger in those forms in the Daizenshuu, could you link me to where this is stated?

And even if it is stated, doesn't mean the Daizenshuu shouldn't be used.

We still used Beerus's statement of the World of Void's size being infinite when rating Jiren and Ultra Instinct Goku's feat of shaking it even though it is clear that there is both Time and Space in the World of Void despite Beerus saying that there isn't.

 

[Huesito88]

That was grand priest who said that :/

 

[Theglassman12]

And the Daizenshuu only shows the power level of Goku up till the Frieza Saga, but IIRC nothing states that Goku never gets stronger in those forms in the Daizenshuu, could you link me to where this is stated?

The page that shows Goku's frieza saga power levels show the multipliers. The SSJ multipliers are based on frieza saga goku, which shouldn't be the case at all since goku grew to be much stronger later on.

 

[Warren_Valion]

A boost of 2x is barely anything, Gohan literally goes from ~USSJ Trunks level to pulverizing Cell Jrs from going SSJ2 for example, that is a massive gap that is no way just 2x. SSJ3 Goku nearly brutalizes Fat Buu with his mere punches while having massive energy issues, but SSJ2 Vegeta's self-destruct isn't enough to take him down.

The gap is small, yes, but it's still possible.

You don't need to be twice as strong or higher to fodderize you're opponent in Dragon Ball.

Look at Qui and Vegeta, Qui had a power level of 18,000 and Vegeta of 24,000, and Vegeta absolutely destroyed Qui with no effort despite not being close to being twice as strong as Qui was.

Gohan goes from Cell Jr. level to stronger than Cell because Cell is just between the gap of 50 to 100 times Gohan's base power level.


And Vegeta's Self-Destruction effortlessly vaporised Buu, but Buu came back via regen.

Goku had more strength so he did better than Vegeta did, but Goku's punches didn't vaporize Buu like Vegeta's explosion did.

SSJ3 Goku's Ki attacks > Vegeta's Sacrifice > SSJ3 Goku's fist > SSJ2 Vegeta


None of this is contradictory.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The page that shows Goku's frieza saga power levels show the multipliers. The SSJ multipliers are based on frieza saga goku, which shouldn't be the case at all since goku grew to be much stronger later on.

That's just stating what the multipliers are, not that Goku didn't get stronger.

The multipliers stay the same, but Goku's base power increases.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's not possible at all, the gap should be literally at least in dozens to be able to merely damage something to absolutely pulverizing it with a wave of your hand.P

Power levels tend to not be accurate in that regard, just that one is stronger than another.

 

[Warren_Valion]

That's not possible at all, the gap should be literally at least in dozens to be able to merely damage something to absolutely pulverizing it with a wave of your hand.P
Power levels tend to not be accurate in that regard, just that one is stronger than another.

That's how stuff works in Dragon Ball, like my example with Qui, and others within the series, you don't need a significantly large gap to stomp an opponent.

 

[SomebodyData]

Read that latter part, already pointed out the gap is not necessarily accurate like you're suggesting.

Also the gap between Goku and Vegeta was much bigger than with Qui, especially as GA.

 

[Theglassman12]

Power levels are inconsistent. Roshi has a power level of 137, and king piccolo is far more powerful than him. Does that give him a power level of 1000? No, otherwise Raditz wouldn't be that big of a threat.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Power levels are inconsistent. Roshi has a power level of 137, and king piccolo is far more powerful than him. Does that give him a power level of 1000? No, otherwise Raditz wouldn't be that big of a threat.

Power levels in early Dragon Ball is very inconsistent.

But in the Frieza Saga, when they are used constantly, they are quite consistent.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Read that latter part, already pointed out the gap is not necessarily accurate like you're suggesting.

Also the gap between Goku and Vegeta was much bigger than with Qui, especially as GA.

Where specifically are you mentioning?

The part about how the gap should be dozens of times greater, because like I said, it's Dragon Ball and that's how power levels work in Dragon Ball.

If it's the second part of that comment, then that's just you saying the difference in strength is not accurate, that proves effectively nothing.

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with SD here. There is no way that ssj2 is just 2x ssj1. I mean ssj2 is called grade 5 and it doesn't make sense that a saiyan who jumps from grade 1 to grade 5 only has a 2x boost.

However, one could argue that the x2 boost is over grade 4 which is MSSJ. But still...

Same for ssj3.

But I think the normal ssj multiplier of x50 makes sense as per scaling and Akira Toriyama also confirmed this in an interview.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree with SD here. There is no way that ssj2 is just 2x ssj1. I mean ssj2 is called grade 5 and it doesn't make sense that a saiyan who jumps from grade 1 to grade 5 only has a 2x boost.
However, one could argue that the x2 boost is over grade 4 which is MSSJ. But still...

Same for ssj3.

But I think the normal ssj multiplier of x50 makes sense as per scaling and Akira Toriyama also confirmed this in an interview.

When was Super Saiyan 2 called "grade 5"?

 

[AKM sama]

I think that's also in the daizenshuu.

You remember how there is normal ssj1(Goku) < ascended ssj1(Vegeta) < ultra ssj1(Trunks) < mastered ssj1(Goku and Gohan) < ssj2(Gohan)

Apparently that's what they call grades of super saiyan

 

[SomebodyData]

This would imply ASSJ, USSJ, MSSJ are all less than a 2x multiplier. In other words, the actual difference between Gohan MSSJ in the Cell Games and SSJ2 is significantly less than 2x.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm pretty sure that isn't in the Daizenshuu.

And Super Saiyan 2 is different from the grades of the Super Saiyan transformation.

The grades are extensions of the original transformation, while Super Saiyan 2 is different form.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The only one where you can kind argue is the x50 Multiplier for Base Super Saiyan. Since there is evidence that it is over x40 (Since 50% Freeza could overpower Kaioken x20 Goku).

And the x10 for Oozaru since it is stated.

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are super inconsistent.

 

[Warren_Valion]

This would imply ASSJ, USSJ, MSSJ are all less than a 2x multiplier. In other words, the actual difference between Gohan MSSJ in the Cell Games and SSJ2 is significantly less than 2x.

Is mastered or Full-Power Super Saiyan even a grade like Ascended or Ultra?

It takes on different properties and looks identical to the original transformation.

I always assumed it didn't supply a greater multiplier, but just increased Goku and Gohan's base forms astronomically.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes actually, Grade 4.

Base power? Why would a SSJ form increase base power?

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Matt and SD.

I think at least the ssj1 multiplier should be accepted as it makes perfect sense and due to Matt's reasonings. And also because Akira Toriyama mentions it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yes actually, Grade 4.
Base power? Why would a SSJ form increase base power?

Like training to perfect the form increases your power, not the form itself, at least that how I always viewed it because it never really seemed that the form was exceptionally powerful, but during Goku and Gohan's training to perfect the form they became massively more powerful because of it.

 

[AKM sama]

Btw, I can't remember when the Oozaru multiplier was stated in-series. Can somebody help me?

 

[SomebodyData]

Ah, I mean that makes sense, however, is rather assumption based. Especially considering Goku and Vegeta's bases were roughly equal since then, and if Goku had that big of a jump it would be rather hard for Vegeta to cover it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Btw, I can't remember when the Oozaru multiplier was stated in-series. Can somebody help me?

Vegeta said it in his Great Ape form before he attacked Goku in manga chapter 233.

Link: http://*********.com/Manga/Dragon-Ball/Chapter-233?id=260819

 

[AKM sama]

Arigatou Gozaimasu

 

[Warren_Valion]

Ah, I mean that makes sense, however, is rather assumption based. Especially considering Goku and Vegeta's bases were roughly equal since then, and if Goku had that big of a jump it would be rather hard for Vegeta to cover it.

Yeah it is, and I guess that makes sense.


So should there be a note somewhere saying that the Daizenshuu multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are not used as they are non-sensical?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Arigatou Gozaimasu

Prego.