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D&D Verse Downgrade

Editions do change certain creatures. In 3e the Leviathan was a massive entity that only the gods could fight its full form and the Atropal was a creature only Epic Level people could resonably fight, but both were lowered strength wise in 5e. So I wouldn't scale 5e Levianthan to 3e Elder Evil Levianthan.

Anyways do you have the page for the Elder Tempest saying that they create a 10 mile storm?
 
The Atropal was an undead god thing, wasn't it? Like... almost like a stillbrith. Mordenkainen and pals might scale to that, as epic adventurers, but that's a maybe.

Yeah, if you've got a link for the Elder Tempest thing, that'd be hugely appreciated.
 
Atropals are stillborn Gods or cast off material from Atropus. In 3e their CR was 30 but in 5e their CR is only 13 or 15. That's a pretty massive downgrade.
 
Yeah. And inconsistent as hell, too, considering their background. We may want to, as a wiki, decide which version we believe to be the best to base this all on, yeah? Just to avoid inconsistencies.
 
Well the options are

  • Use the most recent edition since that's the main canon
  • Have different statistics for different editions
  • Use only one edition
  • Use separate statistics based on campaign setting
 
The idea of using always the most recent edition purely because it is most recent I'm against. We're aiming for consistency. Then again, if we don't, no new feats would ever come out. It may be best to ignore using one version, actually. We'll just have to sift through what is and isn't garbage.
 
So what are he TLDR conclusions here?
 
Downgrade everyone who scales to the linked calc in the OP to Low 7C/7C, possibly higher and remove the planetary tier since the wish justification is groundless.
 
Absolutely what Qawsedf said.

The TL;DR would be easiest as:

Anyone scaling from the Apocalypse From The Sky blog calc I link in the OP needs to be downgraded to 'Low 7C, likely higher', with only top tiers in the D&D verse scaling to '6C possibly higher', and anything above that being 100% removed due to lack of any reasonable justification, barring Deities in the D&D verse.
 
Okay, as long as everybody agree about this, I suppose that it should hopefully be fine.
 
And, unless anyone is super opposed to it, add a prep time AP. Qawsed found some solid prep time feats that scale to epic characters, highest of which is 7.8 Teratons and requires significant time to st up but once done can be used pretty instantly.

Here's how I believe it should go, for the few pages we have here already.

Tarrasque should scale to Epic Level characters (7-C). His durability should be placed as being, depending on what prep time feats are acceptable (I can repost them here if it makes it easier for cataloguing), somewhere from 6-C to 6-B, as he isn't even scratched by most prep time spells. Keep in mind the Tarrasque is such an obscene threat that even epic adventurers would normally steer clear of it, and only a wish (a prep time spell itself) can make it vulnerable at all (not permanently kill it).

Dragons should maintain keys for lesser and greater dragons. Lesser dragons should scale to higher level but not epic spellcasters capable of using Earthquake (Low 7-C). Higher level dragons should still scale to their own dragon breath.

Empyreans should scale to Earthquake users at Low 7-C.

Krakens should scale to Earthquake users at Low 7-C, with their island wiping over an unknown period of time acting as a supporting feat.

Epic Characters (Mordenkainen, Drizzt, Elminster, and so on) should have Low 7-C to 7-C normal AP and up to the prep time AP with, as said, prep time (so 6-C to 6-B). Their durabilities likely should not scale to that prep time AP, however.

All the godly avatar stuff is an adventure for another day.
 
Okay. So is anybody willing to apply the changes? Just make sure to update all of the relevant statistics and tier categories, as I do not want to have to spend lots of time cleaning up your edits.
 
I will do it real quick. No worries. Would it be useful to re-upload relevant calcs in one large blog and to request evaluation on-site, then, prior to putting through edits on characters affected by said calculations?
 
I think it should be fine to update the bios as-is. Honestly you, myself, and Qaws are probably some of the most well-versed persons on D&D here just based on this convo, if we three agree I can't see any meaningful objection to the re-evaluation.

I'd say edit the profiles, then upload the calcs into a blog with a link to them in each relevant profile for clarity, and as an afterthought see if anyone finds any issue with it since all of us reached a consensus. A bit brash but there's no arguing it much any other ways honestly.
 
By evaluation I meant to ensure the math is sound. Most calcs tend to need a resident calc group member's approval to get through, unless it's done by NF in which case normally that community decides whether its good and, to my knowledge, people here decide whether to agree.

I'll reach out to Aeyu as well, in case they have issue.
 
The calculations obviously have to have been accepted by either our calc group members or the OBD before they are used to justify statistics changes.
 
So as of now: Low 7-C/7-C, possibly higher.


If the calcs get accepted: Low 7-C/7-C, possibly higher. 6-C/6-B with prep.


That sound good Ant?
 
Just so we are on the same page, have any of the calculations already been accepted?
 
Okay. Then it should be fine to apply the accepted results.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Editions do change certain creatures. In 3e the Leviathan was a massive entity that only the gods could fight its full form and the Atropal was a creature only Epic Level people could resonably fight, but both were lowered strength wise in 5e. So I wouldn't scale 5e Levianthan to 3e Elder Evil Levianthan.
Anyways do you have the page for the Elder Tempest saying that they create a 10 mile storm?
Click to expand...
Hey, sorry I took so long. Here's the scan.

IMG 4997
The storm is under the "Living Storm" section where it says he makes a 1d6+4 mile storm. So it's 5 miles at minimum and 10 at max.
 
A calc group member accepted the Prep Time spells listed here, and accepted the ones I had assumed they would.

Prep Time AP for epic casters scales to Ice Age, now, at 7.8 Teratons of TNT. Country level.
 
Welp. Might have to put through other edits, depending on whether or not this is accepted. The feat is non-prep time and pretty heavily lowballed at High 7-C.

Would scale to literally everything that scales to Earthquake as of right now (same challenge rating as Kraken).
 
It may be best to halt revisions for awhile until that calc gets either denied or accepted, since it would affect everything we've talked about.
 
Kinda late for the discussion, and I'm not good with the calc stuff, but... I think we should segregate rules from story. Yes, for instance, Elminster cannot replicate the "Apocalypse from the Sky" stuff mechanically, but he did stopped a world-destroyer magic with just handwaving in a novel. I don't have the novels in english, so my links are in spanish:

http://i.imgur.com/zxaBafq.png http://i.imgur.com/Go7A4vY.png http://i.imgur.com/uVd4GCr.png http://i.imgur.com/1jvhT66.png

I guess that this feat is way more impressive than the Apocalypse from the sky stuff.

My point is that in most cases, the rules do not simulate how stuff work in the D&D-verse, or at least, in the novels. So, basing all the strength of the verse just from rules is not accurate at all. To boot, these calculations just take into account stuff from just one edition, and not even the current one, so...
 
1: What's the novel? I can probably get it in English

2: Is Apocalypse from the Sky even in 5e?

3: Either way the calc is flawed in ways so I think using it bad either way
 
1: What's the novel? I can probably get it in English

Is the first one of the Avatar Crisis. The Tablets of Fate, I guess it's called in english.

EDIT:

It's Shadowdale. Curious thing, the translators named it "The Tablets of Fate" in spanish...
 
Elminster says is it a "forbidden spell", so our only clue here: in the Realms, the only forbidden spells are those of 10th level onward. So, that means is around the same level of Karsus's Avatar spell.
 
Karsus's Avatar is a 12th level spell though and none of the other spells even come close to replicating it's power from my memory. Another 10th level spell is making cave-in proof caves and moving mountains, far cry from Karsus's Avatar.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
It may be best to halt revisions for awhile until that calc gets either denied or accepted, since it would affect everything we've talked about.
Click to expand...
Did the calculation ever get accepted/denied?
 
No, not yet. I keep checking it. I'll post here when any of the others get accepted, though I'm assuming Darkanine is busy. If you guys know a calc group member that wants to help out, feel free. It isn't a complicated calc, should be accepted no problem, just need to get verified.
 
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