D&D: More Revisions (Deities)

[Mr. Bambu]

Foreword

I've been sorting through the feats in the verse a lot recently, what with all of the D&D revisions going on recently. Instead of focusing on lesser tiers, I believe we should add a secondary tier for all deities within the verse.

This is because deities have two levels of power- one that marks their true forms, which are adequately represented, and the second represents their avatars, which is nowhere in sight. Here are the revisions I propose.

Propositions

Lesser Deities
Demigods, demonic lords, archdevils, and so on (lesser celestial figures) should scale to Lolth's Demon Weave feat, which covered vast areas of land in darkness so thick it blotted out the sun relatively instantly. I calc'd it at Country level+ as a high end, I can attempt to get someone to look over it should this be needed. This lines up well with the new prep-time AP for epic tier characters, which came out as Country level. Considering even the avatars can withstand that stuff pretty handily, and those prep time spells are definitely needed to overcome them, this makes sense to me.

Greater Deities
Greater deities (those that scale to Asgorath, Vecna, or Lady of Pain) should reside solidly within "At least Planet level' due to the Tearfall, in which Asgorath tore the planet apart and remade it as two separate planets. Additionally, these godly avatars are comparable to Asgorath himself. His avatar is stated to be so large, the largest of his dragons is merely the size of one of his scales. Assuming the Quazar Dragon thing is a joke and was never meant to be added, these would be the largest dragons, standing at 914.4 km long at the largest. Meaning Asgorath would outsize our own planet by many times, but alas, I wouldn't know how many off the top of my head. This would line up with several Primordials (beings comparable to the gods in their godly forms) having planet-sized bodies as well.

Ao the Overdeity
Ao would reside in a tier of his own based on the only time his avatar ever appeared within the mortal world- when he descended, his cloak literally contained millions of celestial bodies (including stars) within it. This should be considered 4-A, based on our standards for maintaining a sub-dimension with stars in it. Note that the cloak did not look like it had these within it, it just had them within the cloak itself.

Lumi has no avatar form, so it would be inconsequential to add him.

Speed?
All avatars should logically scale to the highest speed feat of the verse, just for being so casually superior to any mortal.

Supporting Calcs
These are the calcs that support ALL the revisions going on right now that aren't supported yet. If you have time and could check them out, approval (or even denial, whatever you deem correct) would be appreciated, just so the revisions can be put through.

Lolth using the Demon Weave

[Characters doding stuff like explosions and arrows

About as simple of a storm calculation as you can get, but pretty important

Thank you, if a calc group member sees these (or a trusted calc person, just need some sort of rating on their reliability). It's a big help.

TL;DR Versio
All deities should receive a second key for their avatars. These keys should maintain the following stats:

• Lesser Deities scale to 6-B+ in Avatar form based on Lolth's Demon Weave feat

• Greater Deities scale to 5-B in Avatar form based on Asgorath's size, Asgorath's feat of splitting the planet into two separate planets (known as the Tearfall, or the Sundering, or what have you), and being very likely comparable to Primordials, one of which is the size of a planet in the Prime Material Plane.

• Ao the Overdeity should be 4-A in Avatar form, purely because the one time he appeared in such a form, his cloak contained millions of stars and moons within it.

 

[Foggysniper]

Wouldn't the Greater Diety avatars scale to Dender the Night Serpent who is destined to eat the Sun?

If that's not the case, I'll try and get as many supporting feats as I can.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think, unless we find something else to support THAT, 4-C is a bit of an outlier when the rest of the feats pretty solidly scale to 5-C to 5-B. If we find something that scales to Dendar's sun eating feat, then that'd be solid.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Lesser Deity stuff is sort iffy imo. Lolth is an Indermediate Deity in 2e and 3e then becomes a Greater Deity in 4e. She only became a Lesser Deity when some other gods were revived in 5e. So if anything only other Greater Deities would scale assuming my timelines are right (Demon Weave happened when 4e was still in effect iirc). But if I'm wrong then yeah they could all scale

> "At least Planet level' due to the Tearfall, in which Asgorath tore the planet apart and remade it as two separate planets.

Ao is the one who split the planets (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: 4th Editio). However you could be able to scale Gods to the mentioned Pre-Acension Io feat. But from my knowledge the Avatars of the Gods never once fought the Primordials. They engaged each other at full strength.

> His avatar is stated to be so large, the largest of his dragons is merely the size of one of his scales.

Io's avatar is not that large . Only his true form was stated to be that massive (both come from Monster Mythology, page 104). Finally there's always the chance that the Dragons are just overhyping their creator god considering how touchy they are over their creation story

> when he descended, his cloak literally contained millions of celestial bodies (including stars) within it. This should be considered 4-A, based on our standards for maintaining a sub-dimension with stars in it. Note that the cloak did not look like it had these within it, it just had them within the cloak itself.

Not disagreeing with your tier just providing the scan of text saying this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This was my source (and sources linked to it) for the Sundering thing. That said, Asgorath is implied only to have made THIS world, so I suppose you are correct.

However, looking at it, it does appear to be confirmed that Asgorath did hurl down an "ice moon": "Nobody knew for sure if Asgorath actually threw dragon eggs to the world when she cast down the ice moon, although dragons revered Asgorath as the creator of their race"

Dunno what tier this should be considered, but Asgorath's actions also appear to have been to cause global disasters ("a devastating meteor rain fell in -31000 DR,[5] creating a series of natural catastrophes across the planet that destroyed whole continents in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, rearranging even the positions of the seas.")

Honestly, I haven't got the books these all refer to, so if I'm misunderstanding, here is how it seems to be:

Asgorath cast down an ice moon (or something large enough to be considered an ice moon), and meteors followed (which were actually dragon eggs), causing global disasters like the aforementioned seas changing, continents being destroyed, and so on. If I'm wrong, tell me.

As for Lolth. From what I know, she's a demon lord trying to be a lot more. She has a wide following (all Drow, among others), so she may be considered, in some continuities a greater deity, but strength wise, she's consistently on par with higher-end demonic lords (Demogorgan, Orcus, etc).

Ah, must have gotten faulty info for Io/Asgorath/whatever's size. I don't own many of the books, they're owned by a friend so... let's say I have limited info. I do appreciate the help! That said, do you know whether or not their feat of hurling a moon down/causing global disasters and stuff is legitimate?

Based on your points, I think the 6-B+ lesser deities holds up still if that is the only issue. 5-B gods needs to be looked at (could do a calc if Io/Asgorath actually did the feat in question, though I've no doubt it'd be At least High 6-A). 4-A is fine for Ao.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Asgorath cast down an ice moon (or something large enough to be considered an ice moon), and meteors followed (which were actually dragon eggs), causing global disasters like the aforementioned seas changing, continents being destroyed, and so on. If I'm wrong, tell me.

The desctruction causued by the Tearfall created the Sea of Fallen Stars .

> From what I know, she's a demon lord trying to be a lot more. She has a wide following (all Drow, among others), so she may be considered, in some continuities a greater deity,

She's considered to be a Greater Deity in Forgotten Realms itself (during 4e). Even in 3e and 2e she was considered a Intermediate Deity. Her being a Lesser Deity is a new thing.

> I don't own many of the books, they're owned by a friend so

No worries, besides the source about the size came out in like 1992 so its not the most common thing to find around.

> not their feat of hurling a moon down/causing global disasters and stuff is legitimate?

Its legitmate. I just think scaling it to God Avatars is iffy unless we assume they only fought in Avatar form. Also when Io tossed the moon the Dragon wasn't a god yet, but a Primordial.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Avatar keys seem fine

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

What does this mean?

If the Inner Planes are the raw matter and energy that makes up the multiverse, the Outer Planes are the direction, thought and purpose for such construction. Accordingly, many sages refer to the Outer Planes as divine planes, spiritual planes, or godly planes, for the Outer Planes are best known as the homes of deities. When discussing anything to do with deities, the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes are not literally "places" at all, but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit. As with the Elemental Planes, one can imagine the perceptible part of the Outer Planes as a sort of border region, while extensive spiritual regions lie beyond ordinary sensory experience.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If she's been downgraded to a lesser deity in the most recent version, shouldn't we consider her a lesser deity?

The Sea of Fallen Stars was, unless I'm mistaken, all the local seas essentially becoming one giant sea, yes?

Anyways, about to post TONS of feats to support these things, so let'sa go. Be prepared, I'd like your input on the stuff.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> If she's been downgraded to a lesser deity in the most recent version, shouldn't we consider her a lesser deity?

When she preformed her Demon Weave thing she was still a Greater Deity. It was only after the Second Sundering that she was demoted to Lesser Deity

> The Sea of Fallen Stars was, unless I'm mistaken, all the local seas essentially becoming one giant sea, yes?

Four seas merging into one along with contients sinking and massive earthquakes


> What does this mean?

Thoughts in the Prime Material Plane travel through the Astral Plane and take shape in the Outer Planes. In areas like the Sigil you can will people out of existence if you can convicnce them that they don't really exist or cause trees to grow by believing hard enough. So its saying that the Outer Planes are highly moldable and can change depending on the Power's mood as said later in the same text

Even in those perceptible regions, appearances can be deceptive. Initially, many of the Outer Planes appear hospitable and familiar to natives of the Material Plane. But the landscape can change at the whims of the powerful forces that live on the Outer Planes. The desires of the mighty forces that dwell on these planes can remake them completely, effectively erasing and rebuilding existence itself to better fulfill their own needs.

Distance is a virtually meaningless concept on the Outer Planes. The perceptible regions of the planes often seem quite small, but they can also stretch on to what seems like infinity. It might be possible to take a guided tour of the Nine Hells, from the first layer to the ninth, in a single day—if the powers of the Hells desire it. Or it could take weeks for travelers to make a grueling trek across a single layer.

If you're just talking about the God's realm then they're weird infinite sized pocket dimensions

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Shouldn't that give them Pocket reality manipulation then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Foggysniper, once again coming in clutch with the feats.

The Feats
Just gonna post noteworthy feats from this respect thread (it cites its sources in the text):

Selune created the sun, and with Shar, created the planet itself.

The twin goddesses created the bodies of the heavens, giving life to Chauntea, the embodiment of the world Toril... Selune reached beyond the universe to a plane of fire, using pure flame to ignite one of the heavenly bodies...
	~ Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 3e​

This would functionally change my proposed rating for godly avatars to 4-C, with these feats supporting Dendar the Night Serpent devouring the sun in the prime material plane. Apparently these books depict them as being very large, but that is probably their godly form. If this was explicitly in their godly forms (as in, not from the Prime Material in their avatars) then just lmk, trying to find anything legitimate for these characters.

Just a 2-A supporting feat for Mystra.

The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. Without the weave raw magic is locked and inaccessible -------- The exact nature of the weave is elusive because it is many things simultaneously. The weave is the body of Mystra, the goddess of magic. Mystra has dominion over magic worked throughout Toril, but she cannot shut off the flow of magic altogether without ceasing to exist herself. the weave is the conduit spellcasters use to channel magical energy for their spells, both arcane and divine.
	~ Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 3e​

So Mystra controls magic across the infinite multiverse, and upon death, that magical weave ceases to exist alongside her. Since magic has such a physical impact on the world, this should be considered a 2-A feat.

This happened when Mystra was killed by a cleric.

Unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Plane. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Faer├╗n and the surrounding planes and runs wild. In Faer├╗n, this event is known as the Spellplague. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath veils of azure fire that dance across the skies by night or by day. Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos.
	~ Grand History of the Realms​

A whole realm (universe) was disintegrated, and the magical repercussions were seen in another realm such as our own, with many being damaged, shifted, or flat out destroyed.

Here's some more 2-A support: a singular greater deity moved the entirety of the Abyss (which contains infinite universes) from the Astral Sea to the Elemental Chaos.

The destruction of Dweomerheart sent the dying Azuth (a patron deity of mages) into Asmodeus's fiery domain. The archdevil killed him and consumed his divine essence. He then ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos.
	~ Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, 4e​

The page has several other good feats for these guys, but you get the drift. Next we get to Elder Evils and Primordials, who should scale to godly avatars.

First off, the typical feat of Dendar devouring the sun once and, at the end of the world, she'll do it again. Since this was on the Prime Material Plane, I believe this was an avatar.

We get more confirmation about Atropus being a sentient moon, and that its power is to eventually undo all of creation, slowly. It has already destroyed a planet known as Glyth, which is Earth sized.

The moonlet is one of the drifting bodies forming the ring around the dull gray planet known as Glyth, one of the Five Wanderers that do not follow the ordinary paths of the stars. Little do the mortals of Faer├╗n realize the cataclysm affecting this distant world. Drawn by the widespread death and destruction meted out by mind flayer overlords, Atropus drew close, masking its approach behind the belt of debris forming the ring around the planet. While the illithids waged their interminable wars against the native humanoids, Atropus descended and wiped out all life, leaving Glyth an empty husk.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

This would be, at minimum, a High 6-A feat.

Next up, the Leviathan is another primordial.

The Leviathan slumbers in the depths of the oceans. It is huge enough to encircle the entire world. Its chaos energy seeps out as it sleeps, and its dreams create monsters of the land and aberrant sea life. Its restless motions manifest in the form of hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, and volcanoes.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

So it is large enough to encircle the entire world (I believe that's a 5-C feat unless I'm mistaken), and he causes natural disasters just by sleeping.

Additionally, awakening the Leviathan results in the destruction of continents. Fully awakening the beast will destroy the world.

As it approaches wakefulness, the Leviathan's unconscious movements grow more frequent and violent, creating devastating catastrophes and producing deadly creatures. When it wakes the oceans boil and rage, whole continents slide into the abyssal deeps, and the entire world shudders... The Leviathan's awakening is foretold in ancient dragon legends—warning that if the great beast is roused to even semi awareness, the world will be shattered and remade. If brought fully awake, the Leviathan will destroy the world, and in doing so destroy itself
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

This being can be directly battled by divine avatars.

The Leviathan itself is so huge that normal statistics are meaningless, and it is impossible for anything short of a god's avatar to effectively fight it directly.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

So, the Leviathan concretes this pretty solidly. Godly avatars can battle a being that, when awake, can destroy the whole world. This is a primordial, so this also cements the idea that primordial avatars and godly avatars are directly equatable.

At base, greater deities should have avatars of 5-B, possibly 4-C.

Ragnorra, Mother of Monsters, can apparently smash into a planet, creating a huge crater and causing other minor disasters.

Ragnorra, blazing with a miles-long tail of corrupted essence, slams into the world. Most of her body is consumed in the impact, which creates a superheated crater 30 miles in diameter. The explosion can be heard a thousand miles away, and the tremors are strong enough to knock down buildings a hundred miles distant. The force and heat of the collision spews pulverized earth into the atmosphere. This material, along with spores, ash, and fragments of Ragnorra's body, forms a towering plume visible across the continent.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

Father Llymic can, upon being released from his prison, cover the entire world in a glacier (unknown timeframe), blocking out the sun.

If he is released from his prison, the entire world will be covered in a deadly glacier, removed from light and hope for all time... With each creature perverted by his touch, Father Llymic's power grows. As it does, the sun begins to dim, its light drawn out to keep the prison secure. If he becomes strong enough, the sun itself would grow dark. With the darkening of the sun, Father Llymic might finally live. Once he is free to bring his vision of reality to the world, it would become a mirror of his alien home, a frozen paradise of madness and death.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

Note that Father Llymic is not as strong as his counterparts. He can be beaten by a party of epic adventurers, so this feat should scale to lesser deities avatars (Orcus, Iuz, etc) who can also, technically, be defeated (albeit with great difficulty). I could calc this, but we have no timeframe.

Zargon the Returner is something like kryptonite to the gods, as he can kill them pretty easily. However, a lesser deity that was no god (Asmodeus, an archdevil, something comparable to a Demonic Lord) was able to contain him (though not kill him, as he simply regenerates).

This is notable, because Zargon can cause planetary storms of an unknown strength.

The worship of Zargon causes unrest among the gods, which is made manifest with strange weather. Overwhelming: Eerie weather occurs once an hour and affects the entire world.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

Much like Father Llymic, he can be battled in combat by epic level adventurers.

Not a feat for what I've mentioned above, but there's an entity called Pandorym. He's "extra-dimensional", and was drawn into the multiverse via magic. He was contained through unknown means, but should he ever escape, he could kill all the gods of the multiverse itself.

Lured to the Material Plane by an ancient civilization hoping to protect itself from the vengeance of deities, Pandorym personifies the emotionless void of utter annihilation. It was imprisoned by its summoners millennia ago as a deterrent but never released. Now, hidden in a forgotten prison, the godslaying weapon awaits the arrival of a being powerful enough to reunite its awesome mind with its potent body. Pandorym seeks freedom—and with it, mass deicide... Knowing they couldn't hold Pandorym's full might with magic—mortal or divine—they cleaved its alien psyche from its body, trapping the former in a crystal prison beneath their city and the latter in a transdimensional space that touches the multiverse at only one point.
	~ Elder Evils, 3.5e​

So this Pandorym (never heard of 'im) is contained in a crystal that only touches our infinite multiverse at one point. I'm assuming it touches higher dimensions at one point? That's what its implying. I'm iffy on it.

Demigods are shown to be comparable to Archdevils (Demigods are essentially lesser deities).

Here's a helluva feat.

Mephistopheles screamed and tried to stand. Riven kept a foot on his back, and drove him face down into the ice of his own realm. Somewhere in the distance, glaciers crumbled. Mountains fell.
	~ The Twilight War, Shadowrealm​

So Mephistopheles (an Archdevil turned Demigod) screamed, and glaciars shattered and mountains crumbled. That's cool.

Later, he impacts with something so hard that even more glaciers crumble, and volcanoes become active.

He threw back his head, stretched his wings, flexed his claws, and roared his frustration at the cloud-shrouded red sky. The sound boomed across his realm, the thunder of his rage. Distant glaciers cracked in answer. Volcanoes spat ash into the sky.
	~ The Sundering: The Godbor​

A Pit Fiend (a greater devil, should be comparable to beings like Elminster and dragons and such) can flap its wings and emit flames that destroyed an entire village.

"Godling," said the fiend. He beat his huge wings and they shed enough smoke and flame to engulf a village. Riven stood in their midst, unharmed.
	~ The Sundering: The Godbor​

We could probably do a durability feat for the Tarrasque if we could get its surface area. Basically, it sleeps in the core of the earth, and just sleeps through that heat.

It sleeps within the world's core, stirring occasionally. When it wakes, it burrows up to the surface and begins a continent-wide rampage.
	~ Monster Manual, 4e​

Empyreans can also manipulate weather with their emotions.

An empyrean can experience deity-like fits of serenity or rage. It can affect the environment around it by its mood. When an empyrean is unhappy, the clouds might cry tears of salt water, the wildflowers in surrounding meadows might wilt, dead fish might wash ashore in lakes or rivers, or a nearby forest might lose the leaves from its trees. When an empyrean is jubilant, sunlight follows it everywhere, small animals frolic in its footsteps, and birds fill the sky with their pleasing songs.
	~ Monster Manual, 5e​

I think this would be considered a 7-C feat, but I'm unsure.

A demigod's battle with Azuth destroyed a mountain.

Azuth finally shattered his rival's defenses in a climactic battle that split a mountain and created a deep lake.
	~ Powers and Pantheons, 2e​

There's more, but still. Let's cover our scaling.


TL;DR

Epic Characters
Feats:

• Empyreans cause local weather to shift with their emotions, including generating storm clouds when they are upset.

• Pit Fiends can casually cause entire villages to burn up instantly with a flap of their wings.

Conclusion: Maybe 7-C, I dunno. Too many assumptions to be made. At base, we could say Empyrean generated the storm with no specific speed, it is 1 kJ/kg CAPE (baseline), and that would be 7-C, if it stretched to the horizon. This scales to characters that aren't quite Epic level yet.

Lesser Deities
Includes demigods, archdevils, demonic lords, and so on.

Feats:

• A battle with an epic level mortal split a mountain in two and created a lake beneath it.

• Certain demigods like Riven and archdevils like Mephistopholes battled. The latter was able to destroy mountains and glaciers with a yell.

• Zargon, a lesser primordial that can be battled by Epic Characters (albeit with significant prep time) is able to cause global storms and weather changes.

• Father Llymic can cover the entire world with a glacier that blocks out the sun completely, if he is allowed to escape from his prison. Again, he's low on the Elder Evil scale and can be battled by epic level adventurers, albeit with significant prep.

Conclusion: 6-B+ lesser deity avatars (based on Lolth's feat and their very clear high-end tier 7/low end tier 6 feats, and for just being so laughably above most adventurers, even of epic level, who can conjure 6-B effects with enough prep time).

Greater Deities

• Ragnorra can smash into a planet, causing a huge crater and causing a plume of smoke able to be seen from around a continent. That's just by moving.

• The Leviathan causes global disasters just by sleeping, and can destroy continents by beginning to wake up. Upon truly waking up, it can destroy the world itself. This leviathan can be battled by Godly Avatars, as this is explicitly stated.

• Atropus, another primordial like the Leviathan, can destroy planets, leaving them as empty husks.

• Additionally, the Leviathan can cover the whole world.

• Dendar the Night Serpent can devour the sun and will do it again.

• Selune and Shar created the planet together. Selune then reached into the realm of fire and ignited the sun.

Conclusion: At least 5-B, possibly 4-C godly avatars/primordial avatars.

Actual God Stuff

• Pandorym can commit genocide against multiversal-level beings, and is heavily implied to be extradimensional.

• An Archdevil achieving the power of a Greater Deity killed another deity, Azuth, and moved the Abyss (which contains infinite universes) into the Elemental Chaos

• Mystra, upon dying, caused the Spellweave to cease to exist. This caused the universe she was in to disintegrate, and caused many other universes to also be destroyed. All magic across all universes was destroyed, causing all magic users to go insane. This shifted many planes, and caused significant changes to those even lesser affected by the event (namely, our own universe).

Conclusion: Keep 'em where they are, 2-A. No idea on Pandorym.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For the most part that looks good but here's some of my issues


> This would functionally change my proposed rating for godly avatars to 4-C

I have to keep asking why here. Why would this scale to the Avatars? That was preformed by the Deity themselves.

> Here's some more 2-A support: a singular greater deity moved the entirety of the Abyss (which contains infinite universes) from the Astral Sea to the Elemental Chaos.

This would be really good except for one major crippling flaw. In 4e (when this feat happened) the Abyss was a finite plane due to to the Spellplague thing. So this feat is infinitely worse then it would've been if it happened in the 3e or 2e multiverse

> This would be, at minimum, a High 6-A feat.

From his descriptio I don't think he destroys a planet in one giant death wave but overtime with undead and general life drain. Not really High 6A imo

> Father Llymic can, upon being released from his prison, cover the entire world in a glacier (unknown timeframe), blocking out the sun.

The glacier doesn't blot out the sun. He just uses magic to disable all light sources or stops the planet's rotatio

> primordial avatars

The Leviathan is not a Avatar. The Adventures fight the Leviathan's avatars when they try to put it to sleep, but the God's Avatars fight the actual thing.

> a lesser deity that was no god (Asmodeus

Asmodeus had zero divine spark when he beat him . If he was a god in any capacity he would've been crippled by the Elder Evil's aura

> This is notable, because Zargon can cause planetary storms of an unknown strength.

It takes an hour for the storms to form at that point

> he could kill all the gods of the multiverse itself.

If he reunits with his body he'll destroy the entire Multiverse outright and go back to his home Multiverse. He appeared in a FR book first and made two coexisting timelines somehow iirc

> based on Lolth's feat

Lolth was not a Lesser God when he preformed that feat. She got a notable power nerf after this happened

> Ragnorra can smash into a planet, causing a huge crater and causing a plume of smoke able to be seen from around a continent. That's just by moving.

That feat isn't 5B and Ragnorra can only do that when she's acting as a comet.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Weird, fifth edition third edition and second edition abyss are infinite but 4th isn't. IIRC Lady of pain rebooted 2nd into 3rd (Plot Manipulation?)

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Abyss is the largest in 2e, It has infinite layers and every layer is the size of the Prime Material Plane which has Infinite Universes . 3e and 5e use a similar method of Infinite Size but each layer is fininte . 4e its outright finite and only thousands of miles in width.

Also the Lady of Pain didn't like, reboot-reboot. Just that by fixing the damage Venca caused she changed the editions.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

So

Second edition Abyss=High 2-A

Third edition abyss=2-A

Fourth edition abyss=2-C

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait, but Vecna damaged the second edition abyss

wouldn't that make gods high 2-A, Ao Low 1-C, and Luminous being 1-C?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Vecna was amped by some weird super magic snake iirc. Plus no god besides Ao, some versions of Io, and old World Serpant Gods scale to the Lady of Pain

> Fourth edition abyss=2-C

Not even that. More like 5-B or 5-A with weird properties depending on the layers/island you're o . Like 4e is super explicit about there only being two or three infinite planes

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wouldn't that still make LOP high 2-A and Ao Low 1-C?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Certainly. Although Ao being above the LOP to the point where he's Low 1-C is a bit iffy imo.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

How about High 2-A for lady of pain for repairing the 2nd edition abyss, and at least High 2-A ao for being stronger than her?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I could see it. But others would need to agree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Mr. Bambu I actually remembered a feat/statement in the Epic Level Handbook about one of the Abominations (unwanted children of the Gods). Its pretty insane in terms of scale .

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Leviathan is not, no, but the godly avatars can fight him. He has 5-B showings, so 5-B regardless.

I only refer to Asmodeus as a god at the time purely becuase heh ad worshippers. I am aware that he's an archdevil.

I'm okay with Zargon's storms generating over an hour. Not much of a difference.

I wasn't implying Ragnorra's feat to be 5-B. Lotta supporting feats.

Let's disregard Lolth's feat for a second. Let's say that she didn't do that as a lesser god. This means we default to a planetary storm that forms over an hour, and covering the world in glaciers.

Planetary Storm Calc
We'll go super baseline.

It takes 1 hour to form and covers the planet. Surface area of Earth is 5.1e14 m^2 Cloud height of 9144 m gets a volume 4.663e18 m^3. Density is 1.003 kg/m^3 by this wiki's standards, so mass is 4.677e18 kg.

This storm has to cover the Earth in one hour, or 3600 seconds. Half Circumference of Earth: 40074.28 km, halve for 20037.14 km.

20037.14 / 3600 = 5565.87 m/s, Mach 16.23.

KE = 0.5m x v^2 = 7.244e25 Joules, or Multi-Continent level

Alternatively, we could lowball and say he just sustains the storm, meaning CAPE method. 1 kJ/kg.

New value would be 4.667e21 Joules, or Small Country level

Moving on.

Planetary Glacier
Water freezes at 0 C, but instantly freezes at -40 C, so we'll use that. We dunno timeframe, just that it happens upon his awakening.

Average Temp: 16 C. So heat change is 56 C.

We can assume this goes up to the clouds, lowest of which are 1000 m. This would cover most shorter mountains.

So, surface area of earth times height nets us a volume of 5.1e17 m^3. Just to lowball, we'll do this calc for air and not water, despite the fact that it explicitly makes a glacier (frozen ice). So, density of air is 1.225 kg/m^3, so mass is 6.248e17 kg.

Plug in values here, take results. Our specific heat is 1012 J/(kg x K). We get 3.541e22 Joules, or Country level.

Screamy Boi
Demigod comparable being screams, and stuff happens. This is pretty casual based on the fact that it isn't even physical.

Glacier Busting
Just by yelling, that guy shattered multiple glaciers. Low-end, we'll say V. Frag, high-end, we'll say pulv.

A glacier has a baseline of 100000 m^2, and according to web articles, the smallest thicknesses are a few tens of meters, so baseline, we'll say 30 meters. This is assuming the SMALLEST glaciers.

So volume is 3000000 m^3 of ice. Double, because there were multiple glaciers affected. That's 6000000 m^3 of ice, now.

V Frag: 0.825 j/cc

Pulv: 4.3919 j/cc

So, multiply these by our values to get the following tallies:

Low-End: 4.950e12 Joules, Small Town level

High-End: 2.635e13 Joules, Town level

Now then, the mountains that were split in two.

Mountain Splitting
Multiple mountains were split in two. Just fragmentation of a baseline mountain is this, 6.07e15 Joules. Double for 1.214e16 Joules, so Small City level.

Add 'Em Together
Keep in mind this is VERY BASELINE. Literally lowballed at every point.

Low-End: 1.215e16 Joules, Small City level

High-End: 1.219e16 Joules, Small City level

Will calc more later, Black Ops 3 calls to me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, Ao is infinitely stronger than Vecna, who damaged that infinite multiverse. So... I'm okay with the proposed upgrades (High 2-A gods, Low 1-C Ao, 1-C Lumi)

 

[Qawsedf234]

I dunno if the Gods could even scale to Vecna considering he was empowered by another entity. Anyways I can see 6B-6A Elder Evils. Problem is that I don't know how well the Avatars of the Gods scale. Like we know they should be stronger, but all of the Elder Evils have a aura that nullfies a lot of what makes a God really strong. Depending on how good the Abomination thing is we could just use that as better direct scaling.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Abomination thing? Do you mean Leviathan?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nah this dude

 

[Qawsedf234]

Probably the right place to put this. So everyone scales to Vecna in one way or another since he damaged the Multiverse in Die Vecna Die but there's multiple major caveats to this

Vecna was not damaging the multiverse due to his strength. Since he is a god he could not be in the Sigil as his presence causes massive multiversal issues (Gods are a focal point of a plane and the Sigil cannot have any one focul point). In other words him damaging the multiverse had to do with his divinity damaging a fault point of the multiverse and not his actual power. It should also be noted that Vecna had a notable and massive amp in the event. Using the knowledge of the Serpant combined with some magic ancient words Vecna absorbed Iuz and he became a Greater God for a time (which is different from his usual Demigod/Lesser God rating).

The Lady of Pain however is stated and shown to be able to destroy or change the multiverse so she's good.

Now as a counter Vecna was resisting the LOP's attempt to remove him from the Sigil but this took the majority of his power to the point where a bunch of mortals could take him out and the LOP couldn't use her full might or risk destroying the multiverse. Now I do agree that Gods have 2B/2A stuff (like Lolth warping three 2e Abyss layers) but they shouldn't scale to Vecna's event imo. In other words I think the justification for the Gods should be altered or there tiers adjusted.

 

[Xulrev]

What Qaw has stated about Vecna is absolutely correct; he was given knowledge to 10th level and above magics by a primordial being of immense power that rivaled the Lady of Pain's, explicitly, and it did take literally all of his power as a Greater Deity just to resist the Lady's attempts to expel him.

So, as Qaw points out, you can't meaningfully scale from Vecna. He wasn't damaging the multiverse through his power, he was just exerting pressure on a fault point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh. I can do that.

Those guys heat the core, which is 3480 km in thickness (radius).

Converting to meters we get a volume of 1.77e20 m^3.

The core is generally made of iron, at a density of 9.9 to 12.8 g/cm^3, at an average of 11.35 g/cm^3 (or 11350 kg/m^3), if we are to believe this. Mass is 2.009e24 kg.

Heat of the core is 6000 C at the surface. As far as I know, it'd be a lot hotter at the center, but we don't have an exact number, so we'll lowball.

Specific heat is 412 J/(kg*K)

Plugging this into here, we get a value of 4.966 x 10^30 Joules, or 1.19 Zettatons of TNT, Small Planet level. I think a standard and good premise to go off of, however, is to not assume this is instant, since the being can leave and it'll stay heated, and there's no reason to assume it is instant.

Let's say a day as a good lowball, since a day is the low-end of how long the thing says it can leave for. Divide by 86400 to get AP. We get 5.748 x 10^25, or 13.74 Petatons, Multi-Continent level (just barely).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

As for Vecna, if he could even resist the Lady of Pain a little, he'd still scale to 2-A, just at a much lower level.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Vecna should have two keys then. One as a Lesser Deity and the other with the Greater Deity amp. Considering Greater Deity Vecna could barely stave off a Restricted LOP him as a Lesser Deity would've been easily removed.

 

[Xulrev]

Lady of Pain is 2-A in her true form though, she verbatim held back immensely to match him, so she scales to being as strong as a Greater Deity in her restricted form and Vecna scales to that, not her true power.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay. So we've established the following.

Greater Gods should, in their true form, scale to Mystra causing damage and destruction across the infinite multiverse with her death due to the collapse of the Spellweave, Asgorath being implied (depending upon which creation myth you follow) to have created the multiverse, and an archdevil gaining Greater Deity status moving the Abyss (which has portals to infinite universes, each of which is infinite) to the Elemental Chaos from the Astral Sea.

Vecna is on a much lower scale of 2-A, if I'm to believe what I'm hearing correctly, for even resisting a held-back Lady of Pain, as she's very casually above all the gods in general (except perhaps that potentially extradimensional being). As a lesser deity, he should scale to beings like demonic lords, archdevils, and demigods at the very least (some of which have solid 2-C/Low 2-C feats, notably demonic lords being able to control multiple layers of the abyss, which are infinite, and bend them to their image at will).

 

[Qawsedf234]

> archdevil gaining Greater Deity status moving the Abyss (which has portals to infinite universes, each of which is infinite) to the Elemental Chaos from the Astral Sea.

As mentioned above, this feat is not a 2-A one because of the edition retcon. In 4e (when this happened) the Abyss ad been reduced to only being a few thousand miles in diameter and being explicitly finite.

> (some of which have solid 2-C/Low 2-C feats, notably demonic lords being able to control multiple layers of the abyss, which are infinite, and bend them to their image at will)

These feats actually aren't 2-C. At least some aren't. Even in 3e and I believe 5e the individual Abyss layers are finite but the plane itself is infinite. However in 2e those would be 2-C or better.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm beginning to get the inkling that D&D is possibly the most annoying verse to use feats for, purely because it is retconned via editions and has huge differences between the editions.

Looking through the Forgotten Realms' page on their wiki for the Abyss, it seems to go for a "most consistent basis", sorta like how we handle comics with multiple authors.

The Great Wheel Cosmology, introduced in 1st edition, stated that the Abyss had at least 666 layers, each that was infinite. They didn't know how many layers it had, that is purely the minimum it COULD have. It seems like this was later retconned, bringing the Abyss to a dimension that linked directly to the Nine Hells. After the Blood War, Asmodeus shifted the abyss into the deepest bits of the Elemental Chaos to end the war. At this point, the page doesn't state how many layers the Abyss has.

That said, based on the initial cosmology, moving the Abyss would indeed be 2-A, unless I'm mistaken, as the dimension with infinite portals, each leading to an infinite multiverse, was in existence at the time.

Additionally, apparently, as a supporting feat for Low 2-C to 2-C, Baphomet (demon lord) created an infinite maze filled with minotaurs.

Wikipedia's article may be the most objective source, purely because it would not have any reason to support whether or not the Abyss is infinite.

According to that article, the Abyss is spatially infinite. That much we knew. However, it also describes several layers as being spatially infinite, including:

• Pazunia, Layer One: It has been described as infinite.

• The Grand Abyss, Layer Four: It is a bottomless, "nigh-infinite" realm with portals leading to every other layer of the Abyss. The number of layers in the Abyss varies, though according to that article it would be safe to assume that, story wise, this is likely due to differnt organizations being responsible for catalouging, meaning we can likely go with the "infinite" option. So these portals lead to an infinite amount of layers of the Abyss, which would likely be comparable to Pazunia, which is infinite.

• Graz'zt's Layer, Layers 45-47: Dunno which one, but one of them contains Graz'zt's palace, which is infinite and spans the entire infinite layer.

• Layer 528, Jubilex's Layer: An infinite layer of ooze.

Additionally, it may be useful to look through these again:

Blog 1

Blog 2

 

[Qawsedf234]

> it is retconned via editions and has huge differences between the editions

For the most part the upper tiers like Ao, LOP, and the Lumionus One aren't affected by the edition change. The issue is that gods and Demon Lord/Devil Prince are majorly impacted depending on the source. Ranging from at most 5A in 4e to easily 2A or High 2A in 2e

> That said, based on the initial cosmology, moving the Abyss would indeed be 2-A, unless I'm mistaken, as the dimension with infinite portals, each leading to an infinite multiverse, was in existence at the time.

Using the 2e cosmology the feat would be either 2A or High 2A. 2e Abyss has infinite layers and every layer is the size of the Prime Material Plane which has Infinite Universes. The issue is that after the Vecna/LOP stuff the Abyss was reduced outright in size to this. Then reduced again in 4e then brought back to being like 3e. For example Lolth folded the 65th and 66th layers of the Abyss to resemble a web in 2e, which should easily be a 2B or 2A feat considering the edition. But if she were to do it again now it'd be infinitly worse AP wise (though still 2-C or better).

> Additionally, apparently, as a supporting feat for Low 2-C to 2-C, Baphomet (demon lord) created an infinite maze filled with minotaurs.

I checked the 3e source (Fiendish Codex I) (as the 2e one is indeed infinite in size) and it does mention that its infinite in size . However Baphomet did not create it nor does he rule all of it . There is a possible 5e source but I would need to check that out first. But as of now I can't agree with it being 2-C post 2e considering he doesn't even fully control his realm.

> The Grand Abyss, Layer Four:

That is infinite (or nigh-infinite but likely infinite considering the first quote is from a outside PoV) according to the Fiendish Codex I. Also not mentioned by you, but if Lolth moved her plane in 3e into the Abyss then that would be a 2-C or better feat

> Graz'zt's Layer, Layers 45-47

I'm sorry but that was retconed. As Wikipedia noted in the source the infinite thing comes from 1e and 2e DnD, when every planar layer was spacial infinite. Another infinite layer that was mentioned was the 23rd layer. But overall most seem to be fininte.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also in case anyone is wondering, each of the Nine Hells is fininite in 3e (but the plane itself is infinite).

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the TLDR conclusions here? Also, I am not sure if covering an area in darkness is quantifiable, as it isn't a destructive feat.