D&D Infernal and Drizzt CRT

[Mr. Bambu]

I approve, though a note should probably be made regarding the unknown timeframe of their recovery.

hey thanks Wizards for adding yet another layer of vagueness to your works, we really super appreciate it

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dunno if we need more mod input before the changes can be applied, but if we don't I guess you can add them?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Tier 6 Drizzt is perfectly acceptable. I'd been wondering if he had an actual level, somewhere.

He's definitely not Tier 2 without the amp, which involved Lolth, who is already Tier 2 on her own.

Not much to say on anything else.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Tier 6 Drizzt is perfectly acceptable. I'd been wondering if he had an actual level, somewhere.

He has a canon level in every edition besides 5e

Not much to say on anything else.

So its okay to change the Infernal to "6-B, potentially low 2-C" then?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you want, yeah.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Guess I'll do the Infernal then. I'll let Bambu or someone else handle Drizzt.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, just realized something, now.

Isn't Drizzt's level of 21 in 4e levels?

Because in 4e, level 30 was the equivalent of level 20.

Because that's actually worse than his 3e CR of 18, which still lets him scale to "At least Island level+". Just not as high into Tier 6 as some other stuff.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. He was 10 in 1e, 16 in 2e, 18 in 3e, and 21 in 4e.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So yeah, I'm fine with "At least 6-C" for Drizzt, then.

He should probably have keys, but I haven't read one of his novels in a long time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Shouldn't it be "likely 6C" rather than "at least 6C"?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

CR 18 and above is "At least 6-C" due to Imix being nearly High 6-C by simply existing, I believe. Unless there's another reason I'm missing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ah okay. I thought Imix was a more standard 6-C. Sounds good then unless we want to go with "Likely at least 6-C" like with the Atropal's tiering.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

So, when Drizzt killed Demogorgon, they had an illithid hive, Gromph Baenre, Kimmuriel and K'yorl Oblodra channeling the psionic kinetic shield ability on Drizzt, which absorbs damage and allows the one protected to inflict that damage with a touch. By the order of Lolth as dictated by Matron Mother Quenthel Baenre, ALL the drow in Menzoberranzan gathered and cast every single divine and arcane spell they had, shot every enchanted arrow, ballistae bolt, threw every spear, sacrificed scrolls of untold power and revealed hidden artifacts, etc., all on Drizzt. So with literally all the power of Menzoberranzan itself behind a two-handed strike of Icingdeath, a sword that deals extra damage and soul damage to demons and creatures born of fire, he one-shots Demogorgon.

So, yeah, it's a complete one-time outlier. That said, in the most recent book, Timeless, he has a feat of literally expelling a demon's poison out of his thigh just by flexing the muscles in his thigh the right way. Should that count as limited Body Control, or just more poison resistance?

 

[Saga89]

Because in 4e, level 30 was the equivalent of level 20.

Given how Tiamat sits at level 35 I'm not entirely comfortable with that

 

[Dragonstitch]

Really level 30 from 4e should not be made the equivalent of level 20 for other editions. just because it is the max level does not mean it it is the same as level 20, since from what I can find both 2e, and 3e added level 21-30 levels later on while 4e had those levels added from the get go.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Given how Tiamat sits at level 35 I'm not entirely comfortable with that

Its the offical conversion as stated here. But it only works in regards to 4e -> 5e

Your DM sets the starting level of a converted character. For fourth edition characters, fifth edition level is two-thirds of fourth edition level, rounded normally instead of always down. For example, 25th level in fourth edition becomes 17th level in fifth edition. Level in other editions converts directly into fifth edition, but only up to 20th level.

 

[Saga89]

That calculation would leave Tiamat 11 levels below Demogorgon, while Demogorgon himself is unchanged. Also it disregard the whole Epic Destiny thing that was the big part of epic levels in 4e: a 30th level character war one ready to ascend to divinity. To me it's clearly better to study case by case.

EDIT: well picture me surprised, 5e Tiamat is indeed somewhat weaker than Demogorgon: 30 HDs vs 34 but she rates a challenge of 30 vs 26 (most of her advantages, as better durability, only comes by superior base size).

 

[Qawsedf234]

> that calculation would leave Tiamat 11 levels below Demogorgon

Its levels, not CR. Which a different metric since a CR of 35 is expected to fight a party of 35s. Also in 5e Tiamat has a CR of 30, which is the same rating as Demogorgo 4 rankings higher than Demogorgo.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Really are we really going to consider 4e levels lesser just do to 5e conversion rules when 5e only caps at 20 (2nd, 3rd, and 4th capping at 30 when at epic.) and is known to keep character to lower level of powers.

when in 4e when you hit level 21 you are not even bound by mortal limits anymore. Also if we are treating 4e epic levels like this we should treat all epic teirs from other like this as well considering they 4e treats level 21-30 the same way the other edtions do.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Really are we really going to consider 4e levels lesser just do to 5e conversion rules when 5e only caps at 20 (2nd, 3rd, and 4th capping at 30 when at epic.)

To my knowledge neither 2nd or 3rd edition had capped levels. There were points that the books recommended the GM stop at or have the players ascend at, but I've seen charts that go all the way up to level 50 in second edition. So nothing is set in stone. 3rd edition also has no caps afaik.

is known to keep character to lower level of powers.

I wouldn't say lower. This is 5e's description of a level 20. Even in 2e, Hercules who was famous across the multiverse for his deeds was only a level 19. I think they were going with that sorta feel rather than the power creep that 3e started to have

when in 4e when you hit level 21 you are not even bound by mortal limits anymore.

I agree that we shouldn't just ignore them (since like, we'd need to make any level 20 person a planet buster if so), but the conversions of those tiers are going to be weird and be taken on a case by case basis.

 

[Saga89]

On a different note: Opposed to daylight , the light produced by a hellball is perfectly visible outside the area of effect and range of the spell, so that spell must be generating energy. Can someone calculate how much energy an infernal hellball spell is generating to produce radiance equal to the sun (1,74x10^17 watts?)? Maybe it could help determine that part of the 6-B tier the infernal sits (around 5,38x10^5 megatonne, if my approximative attempt is correct? I've a complicated relation with math and physics).

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

That said, in the most recent book, Timeless, he has a feat of literally expelling a demon's poison out of his thigh just by flexing the muscles in his thigh the right way. Should that count as limited Body Control, or just more poison resistance?

What about this, though?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What about this, though?

Seems okay to me. Unless he can power flex like no one's business

 

[Qawsedf234]

Current daylight calc is this

F = L/4*pi*d^2

Using 1000 lux for sunlight

60 ft = 18.288 m

Where F (measured in watts/m^2) = Energy/radiant flux; L = Luminosity (measured in watts); d = distance (measured in meters)

A fixed value of 0.0079 needs to be multiplied by the lux figure in order to obtain the proper w/m^2

1000*0.0079 = 7.9 watts/m^2

7.9 = L/(4*3.14*(18.288*1000)^2)

L = (4*3.14*(18.288*1000)^2)*7.9

L = 33185560467.5 Watts = 33185560467.5 J/s, or 7.9 tons of TNT, Large Building level

So the conversions I guess

• Hellball has a radius of 40 feet or 12.192 meters

• Since its sun bright I'll use the following listed here: 10,000, 25,000, and as a high end 100,000

• 10,000 * 0.0079 = 79 watts/m^2

• L = (4*3.14*(12.192*10000)^2)*79 = 1.4749138e+13 watts or 1.4749138e+13 joules/second which would be Low 7-C

To use the highest end of like, just staring into the sun

• 100,000 * 0.0079 = 790 watts/m^2

• L = (4*3.14*(12.192*100000)^2)*790 = 1.4749138e+16 watts or 1.4749138e+16 joules/second which would be 7-B

So I don't think it would change anything really

 

[Dragonstitch]

Alright, and Really this could have been messing up. Like I could find 3e having epic level beinglevel 21-30 . though that could just be a sample chart.

Also I should can frased the "is known to keep character to lower level of powers" Since I was meaning like 5e keeping players cap there stats at 20. though in the grand sceme of things that likely does not matter that much now that I think about it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright, and Really this could have been messing up. Like I could find 3e having epic level beinglevel 21-30 . though that could just be a sample chart.

There's multiple scans in the book saying that there's no limit, but I'll just post the one that's the most relevant imo. Basically it only shows up to 30 to save on space rather than as a hard limit. Though ngl 30 is a pretty well established cap in DnD. Even in 2e.

Also I should can frased the "is known to keep character to lower level of powers" Since I was meaning like 5e keeping players cap there stats at 20. though in the grand sceme of things that likely does not matter that much now that I think about it.

I'm not saying we should just dismiss 4e and call it a day or anything. Just that we have to be careful with how we scale levels from varying editions to each other.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Aright then I am sorry. this was a misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nah, I think your fears are warranted. Some people really like to just ignore 4e for various reasons and that's not a good attitude to take with the edition.

 

[Saga89]

sooo... Drizzt was epic because his plot armor literally is his epic destiny?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So no one edited the profile? Guess I'll do it now.