D&D Immeasurable Speed Upgrade — Second Attempt

[HigashikataJobin]

Some months ago, I made this thread where I proposed an speed upgrade for the Deity-class characters from D&D, based on the premise that a certain monster could navigate through the fourth dimension. This, however, was a hax mechanic rather than straight up speed.

However, there's another monster who can potentially be an example of a character with immeasurable speed: the Time Dragon.

The reason for this can be read in those two scans, from Dragon #359. More specifically, because of the "Time Apotheosis" skill of the Time Wyrm, it can move backward and foward on the timestream almost at will.

If accepted, them all Deity-class characters will have Immeasurable speed by being superior to the Time Dragon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This checks out for me, so I am alright with this.

Specifically for Time Dragon, I do not know the scaling though.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Some months ago, I made this thread where I proposed an speed upgrade for the Deity-class characters from D&D, based on the premise that a certain monster could navigate through the fourth dimension. This, however, was a hax mechanic rather than straight up speed.

However, there's another monster who can potentially be an example of a character with immeasurable speed: the Time Dragon.

The reason for this can be read in those two scans, from Dragon #359. More specifically, because of the "Time Apotheosis" skill of the Time Wyrm, it can move backward and foward on the timestream almost at will.

If accepted, them all Deity-class characters will have Immeasurable speed by being superior to the Time Dragon.

Deities scale around CR 56-57

Great Wyrm Time Dragon (the one capable of using Time Apotheosis) is a CR 90 creature

No deity is scaling to this.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Deities scale around CR 56-57

Great Wyrm Time Dragon (the one capable of using Time Apotheosis) is a CR 90 creature

No deity is scaling to this.

There's a big problem - at least for me - in saying that deities are around CR 56-57, since:

1. Deities in 3.5 (the same edition of those monsters in the scans) doesn't have CR in their stat blocks per rule;
2. Yeenoghu, who is stated to have killed a primordial with his own hands, is CR 22 in 3.5 (Book of Vile Darkness);
3. Zargon, who is stated to have destroyed an entire pantheon, is CR 16. Even if you say that this is a weakened version of him, he was overpowered at his peak by Asmodeus, who;
4. Is a CR 27 creature. And still, Asmodeus have a smaller CR than the Tarrasque (CR 30), who is described as a tool of punishment created by the gods. So, with this, we have:
5. Zargon, who annihilated an entire pantheon (CR 16) was defeated by a Solar Asmodeus (CR 27), which is still weaker (by scalling through CR) than the Tarrasque, which in turn is just a tool/pet of the gods.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

2. Yeenoghu, who is stated to have killed a primordial with his own hands, is CR 22 in 3.5 (Book of Vile Darkness);

Which edition mentions this? And what book

3. Zargon, who is stated to have destroyed an entire pantheon, is CR 16. Even if you say that this is a weakened version of him, he was overpowered at his peak by Asmodeus, who;

Elder Evils have specific powers that effs over gods. In fact, it is this specific property that allows it to kill gods, as Asmodeus defeated him thanks to the very fact he wasn't a deity. Notice how even a mortal is able to give fight to Zargon to a stand still, with specifically his regeneration allowing it to survive until he defeated the barbarian. Plus, he didn't destroy an entire pantheon anyways.

4. Is a CR 27 creature. And still, Asmodeus have a smaller CR than the Tarrasque (CR 30), who is described as a tool of punishment created by the gods. So, with this, we have:

Tarrasque is CR 20 in 3.5, Asmodeus is CR 32

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Which edition mentions this? And what book


Elder Evils have specific powers that effs over gods. In fact, it is this specific property that allows it to kill gods, as Asmodeus defeated him thanks to the very fact he wasn't a deity. Notice how even a mortal is able to give fight to Zargon to a stand still, with specifically his regeneration allowing it to survive until he defeated the barbarian. Plus, he didn't destroy an entire pantheon anyways.


Tarrasque is CR 20 in 3.5, Asmodeus is CR 32

In 3.5, in Book of Vile Darkness itself It is stated that Yeenoghu's flail is made of the bones of a killed primordial, one which he murdered. If I'm wrong, It is stated again in 4 edition.

As for Zargon, I forgot about the Malefic Properties. If that's the case them I retire what I said.

There's an official CR 30 Tarrasque. I just don't remember where I saw it, but I can check latter. And I confused the Aspect of Asmodeus from FC 2 with his true form. My bad.

However, my first point remains. Deities don't have CR... and by looking at their stats and skills, even a demigod from Deities and Demigods could match and kill a Hecathoncheiries (considering game terms only)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

However, my first point remains. Deities don't have CR... and by looking at their stats and skills, even a demigod from Deities and Demigods could match and kill a Hecathoncheiries (considering game terms only)

Yet that's the CR of creatures capable of killing them. Your point simply isn't supported.

In 3.5, in Book of Vile Darkness itself It is stated that Yeenoghu's flail is made of the bones of a killed primordial, one which he murdered. If I'm wrong, It is stated again in 4 edition.

Yeenoghu's 3e stuff. No mention of such. I will check 4e, but looking over the Forgotten Realms wiki, there's no such thing mentioned either.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Yeenoghu's 3e stuff. No mention of such. I will check 4e, but looking over the Forgotten Realms wiki, there's no such thing mentioned either.

About Yeenoghu. It's from Dragon #364, 4e.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

And here is the CR 30 Tarrasque. It's an Advanced Tarrasque published in Dragon Magazine too. Just posting for curiosity.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

About Yeenoghu. It's from Dragon #364, 4e.

Notice how it's stated he started to fade and lose power and status in 3e. This aligns perfectly with the descriptions that he simply does not command power same as Demogorgon or Orcus.

So yeah, his lower overall power at the time is justified.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

So, not even this guy scales above Time Dragons?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, not even this guy scales above Time Dragons?

Considering not even he has an Immeasurable feat? Absolutely.

Btw, there's multiple time dimensions in d&d, from the demiplane of time, the temporal energy plane and the proper time plane from the Time Magic book, so time dragons could in fact use a higher form of time than what Labelas represents

 

[HigashikataJobin]

If Time Dragons would have a profile, them they would be 2-A and Imm. Speed?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If Time Dragons would have a profile, them they would be 2-A and Imm. Speed?

Most likely, yeah

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Fair enough. This thread can be closed them.