CW flash upgrade

[Isaacbobanka]

I know this has been a discusion before but last time i didn't have time to finish my arguments.

flash has shown that he can somewhat contend with the forces:

Flash inflicts pain to the speed force and knocks her out of the speed force (timestamp 1:08)


And being capable of knocking out the negativ forces


Last time argument was that still force is omniscient and would know but he didn't know that Flash was coming just before and strength force was suprised of flash power in the same clip proving that they didn't know what was going on and that both isn't fully omniscient

 

[ByArrow]

I knew we had to make a discussion rule for that.

This was not the only counter-argument. And you really have no new arguments. This thread should be closed as this has been discussed and rejected before and it is the same arguments.

Cw flash big tier upgrade (speed force)

First of all, greetings to all of you As you all know, speed force is at the level of h1c in vsb. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Speed_Force_(CW) Barry both destroys this speed force and withstands the lightning of the speed force, wally confirms that Barry destroyed the speed force...

vsbattles.com

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I knew we had to make a discussion rule for that.

This was not the only counter-argument. And you really have no new arguments. This thread should be closed as this has been discussed and rejected before and it is the same arguments.

Cw flash big tier upgrade (speed force)

First of all, greetings to all of you As you all know, speed force is at the level of h1c in vsb. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Speed_Force_(CW) Barry both destroys this speed force and withstands the lightning of the speed force, wally confirms that Barry destroyed the speed force...

vsbattles.com

Difference is that this argument show a video of him actually hurting the speed force which is a completly new argument

 

[ByArrow]

I will answer anyway

flash has shown that he can somewhat contend with the forces:

No he did not. On the contrary, he has shown that he is no match for them.

Flash inflicts pain to the speed force and knocks her out of the speed force (timestamp 1:08)

Flash didn't hurt Speed Force. After Speed Force was weakened by other forces almost equal to its own, Barry was able to send Speed Force flying a few meters. And even then, he couldn't knock her out or hurt her.

And later in the episode, Barry unable to stop a tornado created by the Cosmic Forces, which was nothing to them. Why couldn't Barry stop that tornado if they were on the same level? Why did he need the help of the Forces?

And the whole point of Season 7 was that they couldn't stop the forces. Even Team Flash said they can't stop them.

And being capable of knocking out the negativ forces

Flash didn't knock them out. Flash managed to throw them back only a few meters, and after this attack he was completely exhausted and still unable to harm the Forces. And because they needed Flash for their plan, they didn't hurt him. They could have killed Barry right then and there if they wanted to.

Last time argument was that still force is omniscient and would know but he didn't know that Flash was coming just before and strength force was suprised of flash power in the same clip proving that they didn't know what was going on and that both isn't fully omniscient

As I said before, it was not the only argument.

Difference is that this argument show a video of him actually hurting the speed force which is a completly new argument

This video was used in a previous thread so it is not new.

And Flash was helpless against them every time they met.

And Barry was helpless against Thawn, empowered by the Negative Forces, without the help of the forces.. If he was on the same level as the Forces, Barry would not have needed the Forces' help to defeat him. But he did because he is not on their level.

Also, There are tons of anti-feats that Barry and others have.

And to say that Flash is H1C is to say that the Kryptonians, Despero, Alegra, Cecille, XS, Bart, Fiddler, Hartley and more are H1C. Can you say these are H1C? You can't say that Flash is H1C and not say that they is not.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I will answer anyway

No he did not. On the contrary, he has shown that he is no match for them.

Flash didn't hurt Speed Force. After Speed Force was weakened by other forces almost equal to its own, Barry was able to send Speed Force flying a few meters. And even then, he couldn't knock her out or hurt her.

And later in the episode, Barry unable to stop a tornado created by the Cosmic Forces, which was nothing to them. Why couldn't Barry stop that tornado if they were on the same level? Why did he need the help of the Forces?

And the whole point of Season 7 was that they couldn't stop the forces. Even Team Flash said they can't stop them.

Flash didn't knock them out. Flash managed to throw them back only a few meters, and after this attack he was completely exhausted and still unable to harm the Forces. And because they needed Flash for their plan, they didn't hurt him. They could have killed Barry right then and there if they wanted to.

As I said before, it was not the only argument.

This video was used in a previous thread so it is not new.

And Flash was helpless against them every time they met.

And Barry was helpless against Thawn, empowered by the Negative Forces, without the help of the forces.. If he was on the same level as the Forces, Barry would not have needed the Forces' help to defeat him. But he did because he is not on their level.

Also, There are tons of anti-feats that Barry and others have.

And to say that Flash is H1C is to say that the Kryptonians, Despero, Alegra, Cecille, XS, Bart, Fiddler, Hartley and more are H1C. Can you say these are H1C? You can't say that Flash is H1C and not say that they is not.

nothing says that the speed force was weakend so no she littarly took the same damage from barrys attack then what she did from the others and was fine after the forces attacks

Barry unable to stop a tornado created by the Cosmic Forces, which was nothing to them. Why couldn't Barry stop that tornado if they were on the same level? Why did he need the help of the Forces?

because that tornado contained not just one of the forces power but all 4 of them and flash is not above 4 forces at the same time

Flash didn't knock them out. Flash managed to throw them back only a few meters, and after this attack he was completely exhausted and still unable to harm the Forces. And because they needed Flash for their plan, they didn't hurt him. They could have killed Barry right then and there if they wanted to.

Then explain them lying on the floor unconscious that for me looks like they got affected by his blast also deon being suprised about flash contradicts that he knew what was happening

And Barry was helpless against Thawn, empowered by the Negative Forces, without the help of the forces.. If he was on the same level as the Forces, Barry would not have needed the Forces' help to defeat him. But he did because he is not on their level.

yeah when he got the power of all 4 forces barry as i said could match atleat one of the forces not all of them at the same time

And to say that Flash is H1C is to say that the Kryptonians, Despero, Alegra, Cecille, XS, Bart, Fiddler, Hartley and more are H1C. Can you say these are H1C? You can't say that Flash is H1C and not say that they is not.
all of these characters would lose against flash (like despero did) so i don't understand how all of them would scale to barry when 90% of them are no match for peak flash in power

 

[ByArrow]

nothing says that the speed force was weakend so no she littarly took the same damage from barrys attack then what she did from the others and was fine after the forces attacks

If you get heavy attacks from 3 people with the same strength as you, you will get weaker and weaker. And Speed Force took no damage from Barry's attack. When Barry attacked after the attack of the forces, she flew back a few meters, that's all. She didn't take any damage. Also, how can Barry be Speed Force level when all of Barry's power comes from the little energy Speed Force gives him?

because that tornado contained not just one of the forces power but all 4 of them and flash is not above 4 forces at the same time

No, the tornado was not even at the level of the big bang, so infinitely weaker than a single force.

Then explain them lying on the floor unconscious that for me looks like they got affected by his blast also deon being suprised about flash contradicts that he knew what was happening

After a few seconds we can see that they are still standing, as nothing had happened.

yeah when he got the power of all 4 forces barry as i said could match atleat one of the forces not all of them at the same time

Thawn didn't have the full power of the four forces. And yet Barry needed the help of the forces to defeat him.

all of these characters would lose against flash (like despero did) so i don't understand how all of them would scale to barry when 90% of them are no match for peak flash in power

Because all of these characters can hurt the Flash and withstand his attacks. So if Barry is H1C, they're H1C.

Flash vs Fuerza: Barry was helpless against a single force.
Even Team Flash thought that a single force was death itself. And they said it was unstoppable.

What was that thing anyway?

Death itself, maybe.

That means it's...

Unstoppable

The Flash 7x4

Flash vs Psych: Flash is again helpless against a force.
Barry was again helpless against Psych. And again he needed the help of another force.

If Barry is on the same level as a single force, why was he helpless against Fuerza?
If Barry is on the same level as a single force, why was he helpless against Psych?

Even Barry said he wasn't as strong as them.​

Barry: I mean, maybe I'm not strong enough to stop Bashir, but Fuerza is.​

The Flash 7x10

Cisco couldn't hurt Fuerza. Cisco is powerful enough to hurt Barry and the others.

Barry was again helpless against Psych. And again he needed the help of another force.

How can Barry be on the same level as Speed Force when his power comes from a little energy that Speed Force gives him?

Also Barry and others have tons of anti-feats.​

 

[Isaacbobanka]

If you get heavy attacks from 3 people with the same strength as you, you will get weaker and weaker. And Speed Force took no damage from Barry's attack. When Barry attacked after the attack of the forces, she flew back a few meters, that's all. She didn't take any damage. Also, how can Barry be Speed Force level when all of Barry's power comes from the little energy Speed Force gives him?

No, the tornado was not even at the level of the big bang, so infinitely weaker than a single force.

After a few seconds we can see that they are still standing, as nothing had happened.

Thawn didn't have the full power of the four forces. And yet Barry needed the help of the forces to defeat him.

Because all of these characters can hurt the Flash and withstand his attacks. So if Barry is H1C, they're H1C.

Flash vs Fuerza: Barry was helpless against a single force.
Even Team Flash thought that a single force was death itself. And they said it was unstoppable.


The Flash 7x4

Flash vs Psych: Flash is again helpless against a force.
Barry was again helpless against Psych. And again he needed the help of another force.

If Barry is on the same level as a single force, why was he helpless against Fuerza?
If Barry is on the same level as a single force, why was he helpless against Psych?

Even Barry said he wasn't as strong as them.​

The Flash 7x10

Cisco couldn't hurt Fuerza. Cisco is powerful enough to hurt Barry and the others.

Barry was again helpless against Psych. And again he needed the help of another force.

How can Barry be on the same level as Speed Force when his power comes from a little energy that Speed Force gives him?

Also Barry and others have tons of anti-feats.​

If you get heavy attacks from 3 people with the same strength as you, you will get weaker and weaker. And Speed Force took no damage from Barry's attack. When Barry attacked after the attack of the forces, she flew back a few meters, that's all. She didn't take any damage. Also, how can Barry be Speed Force level when all of Barry's power comes from the little energy Speed Force gives him?

she littarly screamed in pain after he blasted her and no the forces didn't weakend her she littarly got up like it was nothing from most of them and even after deons attack none of them was able to send her flying like flash did. The reason why flash was able to do this is because he is the speed force avatar which would make sense that he can somewhat hurt her as he is the most powerful speedster

No, the tornado was not even at the level of the big bang, so infinitely weaker than a single force.

The big bang was the thing that created the enitre multiverse(said by the monitor) so saying its relativ to the big bang is a good feat(which it was) also then why didn't the forces stop it on their own if you say they were more powerful than it?
After a few seconds we can see that they are still standing, as nothing had happened.
Them being knocked out shows that he can actually contend and if nothing happend they wouldn't have been knocked out
Thawn didn't have the full power of the four forces. And yet Barry needed the help of the forces to defeat him.
Yes he did they littarly gave him full acces to all of the negativ forces not to mention that he was able to fight barry who absorbed the positiv forces which shows that both got fully amped
Because all of these characters can hurt the Flash and withstand his attacks. So if Barry is H1C, they're H1C.

Flash vs Fuerza: Barry was helpless against a single force.
Even Team Flash thought that a single force was death itself. And they said it was unstoppable.

no they can't only when barry holds back and dosen't use his full power none of the characters you mentioned has gone up against flash when he stops holding back only debatable is despero. flash not being able to deafet fuerza makes sense as the speed force herself said that she can't deafet her on her own and that was the reason she needed flash power aswell and tricked him
Flash vs Psych: Flash is again helpless against a force.
Barry was again helpless against Psych. And again he needed the help of another force.

If Barry is on the same level as a single force, why was he helpless against Fuerza?
If Barry is on the same level as a single force, why was he helpless against Psych?

Yeah he couldn't beat him due to the sheer amount of hax that Psych had which was clear outhax and you you ask these questions with barry but not other characters? speed force when corrupted wanted to kill the other forces so tell me how didn't she? because so far if she is omnipresent and knows almost everything she would easly kill psych and the strength force without struggle yet she needed flash help to actually kill the strenght force (said by herself).


Cisco couldn't hurt Fuerza. Cisco is powerful enough to hurt Barry and the others.

Barry was again helpless against Psych. And again he needed the help of another force.

How can Barry be on the same level as Speed Force when his power comes from a little energy that Speed Force gives him?

Ive never said he has the same durability as them only attack potency again the hurting thing comes from that he is the speed force avatar as they explain both negativ speed force and positiv has a avatar (Barry and Thawne) and the hole help thing was because barry had no resitances against all of the haxes psych has while the strength force has

 

[ByAsura]

Firstly, Nora is just a manifestation of the Speed Force, and can exist separately from the realm itself, as we see at the end of Season 3 and in Season 7 when the avatars arrive in the Speed Force dimension before Nora. We don't scale her to the entirety of the Speed Force across the multiverse (which exists at every moment of space-time, and will demonstrably destroy the universe if it actually interacts with it) and never have. We've gone through this repeatedly in other threads.

Secondly, there's tons of anti-feats against this, like the Positive Forces massively enhancing Season 8 Barry, who was explicitly far more powerful than Season 7 Barry, and the equally powerful Negative Forces enhancing Eobard Thawne (who was below Season 7 Barry) far above Season 8 Barry. How could The Forces amp these characters so enormously if they're on par with The Forces?

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Firstly, Nora is just a manifestation of the Speed Force, and can exist separately from the realm itself, as we see at the end of Season 3 and in Season 7 when the avatars arrive in the Speed Force dimension before Nora. We don't scale her to the entirety of the Speed Force across the multiverse (which exists at every moment of space-time, and will demonstrably destroy the universe if it actually interacts with it) and never have. We've gone through this repeatedly in other threads.

Secondly, there's tons of anti-feats against this, like the Positive Forces massively enhancing Season 8 Barry, who was explicitly far more powerful than Season 7 Barry, and the equally powerful Negative Forces enhancing Eobard Thawne (who was below Season 7 Barry) far above Season 8 Barry. How could The Forces amp these characters so enormously if they're on par with The Forces?

The negativ forces empowerd him with all of the negativ forces not just one and ive said that flash can at full peak in power somewhat contend with the forces (when fighting 1 not all of them at the same time) so when they were buffed it wasen't just 1 force it was all of them.


Since when is the manifestation weaker in physical form? i haven't seen anything that proves that not to mentioned that they have said that nora is the speed force itself.

 

[ByAsura]

They empowered RF to the point where Flash absolutely didn't stand a chance against him, and you're talking about an incarnation of the Flash who was almost 20x slower than his Armageddon self being equal to The Forces in the OP.

Since when is the manifestation equal to the Speed Force? It's explicitly not the entire Speed Force (as I just showed) and gets beaten up by avatars of The Forces. You need to give proof of this since you've made the claim in the OP.

In Season 2, we see that the Speed Force can appear as multiple things, like Joe, Iris and Nora simultaneously. These are the Speed Force, but they're not the entire combined energies of the Speed Force.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

They empowered RF to the point where Flash absolutely didn't stand a chance against him, and you're talking about an incarnation of the Flash who was almost 20x slower than his Armageddon self being equal to The Forces in the OP.

Since when is the manifestation equal to the Speed Force? It's explicitly not the Speed Force (as I just showed) and you're the one making the claims here.

In Season 2, we see that the Speed Force can appear as multiple things, like Joe, Iris and Nora simultaneously. These are the Speed Force, but they're not the entire combined energies of the Speed Force.

also reverse flash being capable of doing the same would make sense as he is described as the negativ force avatar

Since when is the manifestation equal to the Speed Force? It's explicitly not the Speed Force (as I just showed) and you're the one making the claims here.

How does proving that the speed force has a physical body mean that its weaker? sure she didn't teleport there at the same time but that dosen't mean she is weaker than her true form not to mention that there is nothing that says she is weaker in the manifestation.
In Season 2, we see that the Speed Force can appear as multiple things, like Joe, Iris and Nora simultaneously. These are the Speed Force, but they're not the entire combined energies of the Speed Force.

That just shows that she can manifest as multiple people and not just nora allen it there is nothing when she does that which proves that she is weaker in a manifestation nor when she uses multiple manifestations at once.

 

[ByAsura]

also reverse flash being capable of doing the same would make sense as he is described as the negativ force avatar

You're actually just deconstructing your own point now. If Reverse Flash is equal to The Forces by virtue of being an avatar, how does he receive a >>>>>>20x amp to his Speed through The Forces? Also, this doesn't make sense because even the strongest avatars are no match for Nora even when The Forces are disbalanced.

How does proving that the speed force has a physical body mean that its weaker? sure she didn't teleport there at the same time but that dosen't mean she is weaker than her true form not to mention that there is nothing that says she is weaker in the manifestation.

Nora says her true form is both lightning and capable of safely manifesting on Earth in The One With The Nineties, whereas the Speed Force is composed of dark matter and all manner of exotic energies that can't safely manifest on Earth. Also, she outright compares herself to the other avatars in Fear Me rather than the full Speed Force itself.

So, there's no evidence for what you're saying, and frequent contradictions.

That just shows that she can manifest as multiple people and not just nora allen it there is nothing when she does that which proves that she is weaker in a manifestation nor when she uses multiple manifestations at once.

Firstly, you've missed the point. The Speed Force can appear as multiple things simultaneously, and even those multiple things are infinitesimal compared to the rest of the realm.

Secondly, once again, you're the one who needs to give proof that she is as strong as the multiversal Speed Force since you're making the claim that harming her is High 1-C.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

You're actually just deconstructing your own point now. If Reverse Flash is equal to The Forces by virtue of being an avatar, how does he receive a >>>>>>20x amp to his Speed through The Forces? Also, this doesn't make sense because even the strongest avatars are no match for Nora even when The Forces are disbalanced.

Nora says her true form is both lightning and capable of safely manifesting on Earth in The One With The Nineties, whereas the Speed Force is composed of dark matter and all manner of exotic energies that can't safely manifest on Earth. Also, she outright compares herself to the other avatars in Fear Me rather than the full Speed Force itself.

So, there's no evidence for what you're saying, and frequent contradictions.

Firstly, you've missed the point. She can appear as multiple things simultaneously, and even those multiple things are infinitesimal compared to the actual Speed Force Realm.

Secondly, once again, you're the one who needs to give proof that she is as strong as the multiversal Speed Force since you're making the claim that harming her is High 1-C.

You're actually just deconstructing your own point now. If Reverse Flash is equal to The Forces by virtue of being an avatar, how does he receive a >>>>>>20x amp to his Speed through The Forces? Also, this doesn't make sense because even the strongest avatars are no match for Nora even when The Forces are disbalanced.

I said that he can somewhat contend with them not against all of the forces and defently not that he has the same amount of power as all of the forces combined so him receiveing a boost just shows that the forces amped him to the point that he posses the power of all forces and not just one.

the enitre point of the strongest avatars are no match for nora makes no sense as she herself admitted she can't alone deafet the strength force she herself said "i need your power to deafet her"



Nora says her true form is both lightning and capable of safely manifesting on Earth in The One With The Nineties, whereas the Speed Force is composed of dark matter and all manner of exotic energies that can't safely manifest on Earth. Also, she outright compares herself to the other avatars in Fear Me rather than the full Speed Force itself.

So, there's no evidence for what you're saying, and frequent contradictions.

In that video they littarly says she is the speed force not to mention that every time the speed force has been effected she has aswell confirming that she is it just in a physical form. also the video of them teleporting just means that they teleported in her (the speed force) as she can exist at multiple places as once.


Firstly, you've missed the point. She can appear as multiple things simultaneously, and even those multiple things are infinitesimal compared to the actual Speed Force Realm.

Secondly, once again, you're the one who needs to give proof that she is as strong as the multiversal Speed Force since you're making the claim that harming her is High 1-C.

Ive proved that she is the same person in previus explanation and she has other feats aswell:

the forces was able to create a storm that was charging up to the big bang:



In crisis the monitor said that the big bang was the birth of the multiverse

In the beginning, there was only one. A single black infinitude. Then the infinitude found release, and, finally, the darkness broke, filling it with life. With the multiverse. Every existence multiplied by possibility. And spread out before space and time in infinite measure. Civilizations rose and fell. And rose again across reality's grasping expanse."
—Mar Novu[src]

https://arrow.fandom.com/wiki/Multiverse

the same multiverse that scales to low-1c atleast

 

[ByAsura]

I said that he can somewhat contend with them not against all of the forces and defently not that he has the same amount of power as all of the forces combined so him receiveing a boost just shows that the forces amped him to the point that he posses the power of all forces and not just one.

Homie, his speed specifically is the thing that's being amped more than 20-fold. I was explicitly talking about the Speed Force there.

But, even then, he should not be dominating these characters with his Still, Strength and Sage Force abilities if each Force can only offer him a level of power already on par with their own. And they proceed to give Thawne even more power—enough to one-shot himself and even The Forces-amped Flash with an energy wave if it successfully struck him.

How can you claim that Season 7 base Barry is even somewhat close to the entire Speed Force or Season 7/8 base Thawne is somewhat close to the entire Negative Speed Force? It just doesn't make sense and isn't possible.

the enitre point of the strongest avatars are no match for nora makes no sense as she herself admitted she can't alone deafet the strength force she herself said "i need your power to deafet her"

That's because the Speed Force was heavily weakened at the time, hence why Nora is much more powerful than any one of them (like I showed in the clip) when she starts to regain dominance.

In that video they littarly says she is the speed force not to mention that every time the speed force has been effected she has aswell confirming that she is it just in a physical form.

How does this not entirely kill your point entirely in your eyes? She's a physical form of the Speed Force, a thing that's blatantly not physical or even temporal.

also the video of them teleporting just means that they teleported in her (the speed force) as she can exist at multiple places as once.

This is why I'm finding it so difficult to address some of these claims. You're just saying things with no substantiation to them, so I can't actually give a counter other than 'where is this proven?'

Ive proved that she is the same person in previus explanation

I don't see the relevance.

the forces was able to create a storm that was charging up to the big bang:

This isn't what happened at all. The other Forces on a universal scale—not on an avatar scale—were out of balance and created the storm by accident. The storm continued to increase in power and mass as The Forces began to unravel, at which point they'd have sprung back in an event similar to the big crunch, destroying Earth-1.

Also, you've made another scaling contradiction; you say Flash is in a similar league to Nora, but he A) could barely stop the tornado before it even formed with all The Forces (including the Speed Force) assisting him, and B) received two massive amps from the Speed Force in this season that allowed him to blitz Reverse Flash.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Homie, his speed specifically is the thing that's being amped more than 20-fold. I was explicitly talking about the Speed Force there.

But, even then, he should not be dominating these characters with his Still, Strength and Sage Force abilities if each Force can only offer him a level of power already on par with their own. And they proceed to give Thawne even more power—enough to one-shot himself and even The Forces-amped Flash with an energy wave if it successfully struck him.

How can you claim that Season 7 base Barry is even somewhat close to the entire Speed Force or Season 7/8 base Thawne is somewhat close to the entire Negative Speed Force? It just doesn't make sense and isn't possible.

That's because the Speed Force was heavily weakened at the time, hence why Nora is much more powerful than any one of them (like I showed in the clip) when she starts to regain dominance.

How does this not entirely kill your point entirely in your eyes? She's a physical form of the Speed Force, a thing that's blatantly not physical or even temporal.

This is why I'm finding it so difficult to address some of these claims. You're just saying things with no substantiation to them, so I can't actually give a counter other than 'where is this proven?'

I don't see the relevance.

This isn't what happened at all. The other Forces on a universal scale—not on an avatar scale—were out of balance and created the storm by accident. The storm continued to increase in power and mass as The Forces began to unravel, at which point they'd have sprung back in an event similar to the big crunch, destroying Earth-1.

Also, you've made another scaling contradiction; you say Flash is in a similar league to Nora, but he A) could barely stop the tornado before it even formed with all The Forces (including the Speed Force) assisting him, and B) received two massive amps from the Speed Force in this season that allowed him to blitz Reverse Flash.

Homie, his speed specifically is the thing that's being amped more than 20-fold. I was explicitly talking about the Speed Force there.

But, even then, he should not be dominating these characters with his Still, Strength and Sage Force abilities if each Force can only offer him a level of power already on par with their own. And they proceed to give Thawne even more power—enough to one-shot himself and even The Forces-amped Flash with an energy wave if it successfully struck him.

How can you claim that Season 7 base Barry is even somewhat close to the entire Speed Force or Season 7/8 base Thawne is somewhat close to the entire Negative Speed Force? It just doesn't make sense and isn't possible.

The first time reverse flash got amped was when they gave him full control the second time was when reverse flash himself wanted to agument his power but didn't have the durability to deal with it. also since they both can basicly achive more power via acces to the forces shouldn't they atleast have up to high 1c via power absortion in their profile?

also ive said that he is capable of atleast hurting one of the forces but as seen in most battle they often outhaxes flash(like the one with psych) and him not being able to deafet reverse flash amped was because he had acces to all the forces not just one
its obvius if they were to fight the speed force would heavy speed blitz them both which is why he wouldn't win a battle against them but he can still somewhat hurt them
That's because the Speed Force was heavily weakened at the time, hence why Nora is much more powerful than any one of them (like I showed in the clip) when she starts to regain dominance.

then explain why she didn't end all the forces on her own and why she needed barrys power to kill the strength force because what you are saying dosen't make sense.
How does this not entirely kill your point entirely in your eyes? She's a physical form of the Speed Force, a thing that's blatantly not physical or even temporal.

i mean manifestation not physical form and i also mean that it confirms that they are the same and that the difference between the true speed force and manifestation is the exact same thing just that it apper different.

This is why I'm finding it so difficult to address some of these claims. You're just saying things with no substantiation to them, so I can't actually give a counter other than 'where is this proven?'

In the video where the speed force teleports barry and the other forces where you claimed she was still there after they teleported(watch video that was tagged before) but the speed force can exist at multiple places at once to her teleporting there only proves that she existed in 2 places at once


This isn't what happened at all. The other Forces on a universal scale—not on an avatar scale—were out of balance and created the storm by accident. The storm continued to increase in power and mass as The Forces began to unravel, at which point they'd have sprung back in an event similar to the big crunch, destroying Earth-1.

Also, you've made another scaling contradiction; you say Flash is in a similar league to Nora, but he A) could barely stop the tornado before it even formed with all The Forces (including the Speed Force) assisting him, and B) received two massive amps from the Speed Force in this season that allowed him to blitz Reverse Flash.

No this storm was refferd to have the same potenial energy as the big bang by cisco which was able to create the multiverse(explained before)


i said he was powerful enough to hurt her not deafet her nora has multiple win conditions that makes her win against him

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Homie, his speed specifically is the thing that's being amped more than 20-fold. I was explicitly talking about the Speed Force there.

But, even then, he should not be dominating these characters with his Still, Strength and Sage Force abilities if each Force can only offer him a level of power already on par with their own. And they proceed to give Thawne even more power—enough to one-shot himself and even The Forces-amped Flash with an energy wave if it successfully struck him.

How can you claim that Season 7 base Barry is even somewhat close to the entire Speed Force or Season 7/8 base Thawne is somewhat close to the entire Negative Speed Force? It just doesn't make sense and isn't possible.

That's because the Speed Force was heavily weakened at the time, hence why Nora is much more powerful than any one of them (like I showed in the clip) when she starts to regain dominance.

How does this not entirely kill your point entirely in your eyes? She's a physical form of the Speed Force, a thing that's blatantly not physical or even temporal.

This is why I'm finding it so difficult to address some of these claims. You're just saying things with no substantiation to them, so I can't actually give a counter other than 'where is this proven?'

I don't see the relevance.

This isn't what happened at all. The other Forces on a universal scale—not on an avatar scale—were out of balance and created the storm by accident. The storm continued to increase in power and mass as The Forces began to unravel, at which point they'd have sprung back in an event similar to the big crunch, destroying Earth-1.

Also, you've made another scaling contradiction; you say Flash is in a similar league to Nora, but he A) could barely stop the tornado before it even formed with all The Forces (including the Speed Force) assisting him, and B) received two massive amps from the Speed Force in this season that allowed him to blitz Reverse Flash.

also another suggestion is for all forces flash(as he dosen't have another key/profile) i was thinking atleast 3:a as the fight between all forces flash and reverse flash was said to cause another armagedon by joe which previusly was confirmed to be the destruction of a timeline (timestamp 1:55) depends on where a timeline scales to


and up to high 1c as they gained full acces to the forces they were able to absorbed any amounts of power from the forces like reverse flash did in final fight

 

[ByArrow]

Speed Force needed Barry to kill Strength Force because she was weakened and not at full strength. Later, when she regained power, she made a deadly attack against the Forces without Barry (they would have died if Bashir hadn't made the illusion.) Then she was ready for a deadly battle against them again

And the forces were not at full strength. This was seen when Team Flash said that Bashir was getting stronger. And this was shown again with the Speed Force gradually regaining its power. And yet Barry is incapable of harming them as seen in their battle.

He didn't show me anything,
but his powers are growing.

The Flash 7x10 "Family Matters, Part 1"
Flash vs Strength Force: Barry attacked in anger. He still couldn't do any damage. He will have died there if Strength Force hadn't let go.

Flash vs Sage Force: Again Barry attacked and did no damage. And this time he had charged his lightning even more.

Flash vs Sage Force 2: Sage Force attacked and Barry couldn't fight back.

And they didn't use hax in any of them.

Barry clearly said that even the weakened version of the Forces was stronger than he.

Barry: I mean, maybe I'm not strong enough to stop Bashir, but Fuerza is.

The Flash 7x10 "Family Matters, Part 1"

And Barry couldn't stop the tornado, which hadn't even reached the level of the Big Bang. Cisco said the tornado would reach the Big Bang level, but it hadn't reached that level when Barry tried to stop it. And he needed help to stop it.

There are also things that @ByAsura mentioned. And Flash has tons of anti-feats. And the ones that scale to Flash have just as many anti-feats. And it doesn't make sense to scale Flash to Forces.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Speed Force needed Barry to kill Strength Force because she was weakened and not at full strength. Later, when she regained power, she made a deadly attack against the Forces without Barry (they would have died if Bashir hadn't made the illusion.) Then she was ready for a deadly battle against them again

And the forces were not at full strength. This was seen when Team Flash said that Bashir was getting stronger. And this was shown again with the Speed Force gradually regaining its power. And yet Barry is incapable of harming them as seen in their battle.

The Flash 7x10 "Family Matters, Part 1"
Flash vs Strength Force: Barry attacked in anger. He still couldn't do any damage. He will have died there if Strength Force hadn't let go.

Flash vs Sage Force: Again Barry attacked and did no damage. And this time he had charged his lightning even more.

Flash vs Sage Force 2: Sage Force attacked and Barry couldn't fight back.

And they didn't use hax in any of them.

Barry clearly said that even the weakened version of the Forces was stronger than he.

The Flash 7x10 "Family Matters, Part 1"

And Barry couldn't stop the tornado, which hadn't even reached the level of the Big Bang. Cisco said the tornado would reach the Big Bang level, but it hadn't reached that level when Barry tried to stop it. And he needed help to stop it.

There are also things that @ByAsura mentioned. And Flash has tons of anti-feats. And the ones that scale to Flash have just as many anti-feats. And it doesn't make sense to scale Flash to Forces.

I will quit this argument not because i think i was wrong because i have no time replying but i made another arguement regarding the full forces flash can you both take a look at it and see of you agree?

 

[ByAsura]

The first time reverse flash got amped was when they gave him full control the second time was when reverse flash himself wanted to agument his power but didn't have the durability to deal with it.

Even if this is true (it's once again not supported), he had the durability to go toe to toe with Barry, who was equal to him, at a lesser power level. The amp is still a one-shot to characters at that level, and that's all that's relevant here.

most battle they often outhaxes flash

Actually, that's another thing. Barry can curb stomp the Negative Forces avatars as of season 8. It is not possible for the avatars to be on par with the entirety of one of The Forces.

then explain why she didn't end all the forces on her own and why she needed barrys power to kill the strength force because what you are saying dosen't make sense.

I never said that; I said she could stomp them individually and was briefly winning when they were together. You can be much more powerful than someone and not be able to kill them, let alone a group of similarly powerful people.

Why is this even an argument? You saw her outclass them in the clip. This is blatant cherry picking.

i mean manifestation not physical form

Then you're wrong.

• NORA: This physical form is new for me. I didn’t know its limitations. I can feel how weak he still is. How weak we both still are. - Fear Her

but the speed force can exist at multiple places at once

Again, you haven't given evidence for this. I'm not trying to be mean, but I can't actually address the point if you're just repeating what you say with no substantiation.

No this storm was refferd to have the same potenial energy as the big bang by cisco which was able to create the multiverse(explained before)

This doesn't even address the argument I gave about the full power of the storm not scaling to Nora or the avatars.

i said he was powerful enough to hurt her not deafet her nora has multiple win conditions that makes her win against him

That's why I specified somewhat comparable. It still doesn't make sense.

the fight between all forces flash and reverse flash was said to cause another armagedon by joe which previusly was confirmed to be the destruction of a timeline

Armageddon was the destruction of the Earth's surface. The destruction of the timeline is what erased Armageddon, which is why Despero didn't know about it until Barry time travelled and still referred to what happened on 2031 Earth as Armageddon.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Even if this is true (it's once again not supported), he had the durability to go toe to toe with Barry, who was equal to him, at a lesser power level. The amp is still a one-shot to characters at that level, and that's all that's relevant here.

Actually, that's another thing. Barry can curb stomp the Negative Forces avatars as of season 8. It is not possible for the avatars to be on par with the entirety of one of The Forces.

I never said that; I said she could stomp them individually and was briefly winning when they were together. You can be much more powerful than someone and not be able to kill them, let alone a group of similarly powerful people.

Why is this even an argument? You saw her outclass them in the clip. This is blatant cherry picking.

• NORA: This physical form is new for me. I didn’t know its limitations. I can feel how weak he still is. How weak we both still are. - Fear Her

Again, you haven't given evidence for this. I'm not trying to be mean, but I can't actually address the point if you're just repeating what you say with no substantiation.

This doesn't even address the argument I gave about the full power of the storm not scaling to Nora or the avatars.

That's why I specified somewhat comparable. It still doesn't make sense.

Armageddon was the destruction of the Earth's surface. The destruction of the timeline is what erased Armageddon.

Even if this is true (it's once again not supported), he had the durability to go toe to toe with Barry, who was equal to him, at a lesser power level. The amp is still a one-shot to characters at that level, and that's all that's relevant here.

Yeah when he got amped with all of the forces not just one which is why he could one shot ive said it now that flash can damage 1 force if using full power not all of them espacialy not when reverse flash got amped by 4 forces.
Actually, that's another thing. Barry can curb stomp the Negative Forces avatars as of season 8. It is not possible for the avatars to be on par with the entirety of one of The Forces.

It should make sense as he and iris created the forces which should mean he should be capable of hurting them aswell not to mention that they were capable of resurecting the strength force


I never said that; I said she could stomp them individually and was briefly winning when they were together. You can be much more powerful than someone and not be able to kill them, let alone a group of similarly powerful people.

Why is this even an argument? You saw her outclass them in the clip. This is blatant cherry picking.

what i saw in the clip was the speed force using its own dimension as a tool to battle them not to mention that she did no damage to none of them in the battle which should say something if she is so superior. She was also later in the clip blasted out of the speed force by flash
Again, you haven't given evidence for this. I'm not trying to be mean, but I can't actually address the point if you're just repeating what you say with no substantiation.

This site says she is omnipresent which means she can be at multiple places at the same time not to mention she was depicted far faster in the show than barry who can also be at multiple places at once in short periods of time


This doesn't even address the argument I gave about the full power of the storm not scaling to Nora or the avatars.

The only argument that was made was that there was other forces which there were not as the forces seen are the same forces that created the storm.
the show never depicts that there is two sides of the forces and they always says that the manifestation is the true speed force.
That's why I specified somewhat comparable. It still doesn't make sense.

How? when the flash has actually been shown to somewhat hurt her how does that not make sense? not to mention he did create them aswell
Armageddon was the destruction of the Earth's surface. The destruction of the timeline is what erased Armageddon.

Yes flash runned around the planet to erase the timeline created by reverse flash via causing the armageddon which means if he would create a new armageddon he could destroy earth and since universe are descibed as earth in arrowverse it shows that it would affect the entire universe aswell the same it did with the timeline

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah when he got amped with all of the forces not just one which is why he could one shot ive said it now that flash can damage 1 force if using full power not all of them espacialy not when reverse flash got amped by 4 forces.

I'm just not going to bother addressing this anymore.

It should make sense as he and iris created the forces

That's heavily out of context.

The Speed Force (and all the other forces) can't die while universes still exist, as it's an elemental, cosmological constant. Iris had a tiny spark of Speed Force remaining from her brief time as a Speedster, whereas Barry and all the others exhausted their abilities.

• No, but the Speed Force is an elemental part of the universe, so theoretically…
• Theoretically it could have never disappeared. And you think it’s still in Iris. - 7x03

This allowed them to put the natural Speed Force energies into the artificial Speed Force machine and restore its presence across creation, since it was never truly gone to begin with.

However, the lightning rod they used to gather the energies was full of elementary particles, creating new Forces in the process.

• Elemental Force Particles?
• They’re the particles that created the new forces.
• The lightning bolt that rebirthed the Speed Force was full of them.
• Now if we can extract a sample of these force particles from the lightning, then we can send out an electromagnetic pulse that’ll seek out those same particles, wherever they may be along the temporal spectrum. - 7x03

This is not a feat, and certainly not scalable to any Speedster, especially considering that they weren't even Speedsters at the time.

using its own dimension as a tool to battle them

What are you referring to?

she is so superior.

I never said she is far superior here. I said this is a weakened state (as Arrow has repeatedly proven), and yet they're still no match for her individually.

She was also later in the clip blasted out of the speed force by flash

She gave up on the fight willingly and left the Speed Force herself because of the storm. There's not even evidence of injury.

This site says she is omnipresent

It says the Speed Force across the multiverse, as elemental energies, is omnipresent.

Also, if she was omnipresent, why would she need to take a finite amount of time to appear in the Speed Force and need to teleport in?

barry who can also be at multiple places at once in short periods of time

Barry factually can't be in two places at once without timeline remnants, which he himself confirms in Enemy At the Gates. He's moving at a very high (but finite, as we see with Godspeed) velocity, which gives the illusion of being in multiple places simultaneously, similar to a speed mirage.

The only argument that was made was that there was other forces which there were not as the forces seen are the same forces that created the storm.

No. I said The Forces on an elemental scale, above the avatars alone, were unravelling. They literally say (and show, because the avatars are mostly unaffected) this in the episode.

the show never depicts that there is two sides of the forces and they always says that the manifestation is the true speed force.

Yes it does. Literally the entire point of early Season 7 was that almost no Speed Force existed as a presence (including avatars and manifestations), yet it still had an elemental existence in the universe that allowed it to be revived.

Avatars and manifestations are an inkling of The Forces in one universe. The actual forces are outside space-time and attack on that scale.

• NORA: Yeah, the negative forces... They're attacking me right now on the cosmic plane. [...]
• NORA: Because his connection to me-- it's been disrupted ever since he's vanished. I can't find him anywhere in time or space. - 9x11

Why do you think the Avatars are able to die and such with no actual consequences?

Yes flash runned around the planet to erase the timeline created by reverse flash via causing the armageddon which means if he would create a new armageddon he could destroy earth and since universe are descibed as earth in arrowverse

The show uses the term Earth once, and it's in reference to a global catastrophe which affects the planet's mantle.

• CHESTER: Yes, but the Earth isn't just a solid rock. It has a molten core. The kind of pressure I'd be exerting on its mantle would cause cataclysmic damage. We're talking volcanoes erupting, ice caps melting, earthquakes, tsunami. It'd be Armageddon.

it shows that it would affect the entire universe aswell the same it did with the timeline

Watch the episode again. It explicitly refers to the world.

• BARRY: He wanted to stop me from restoring the timeline. The speed wake created by us both, that is what caused the destruction you saw.
• DESPERO: If that's happened, what stopped you from tearing this world apart?

 

[ByArrow]

It should make sense as he and iris created the forces which should mean he should be capable of hurting them aswell not to mention that they were capable of resurecting the strength force

They didn't resurrect Strength Force. They said that the reason alexa came back to life was because she reconnected with Strength Force. And the only thing Barry and Iris did was to get her to reconnect with the Strength Force.

• Caitlin: And Alexa sat up and looked at me.
  Irıs: Alexa’s alive?
  Caitlin: She was for a second, but she’s not anymore. Which doesn’t make any sense, medically speaking.
  Irıs: What if us being back in sync is what woke her up for the moment?
  Barry: And then she reconnected with the Strength Force.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I don't have time to respond so much now but a key/profile should still be created with all of the abilites shown with the forces(as he got full acces with them) and nigh-omniscience.


Also higher tier than base as he can request how much power he want from the forces same seen as reverse flash does to agument his power barry would be able to do the same and should have atleast high- 1c via energy absortion from natural forces.

 

[ByArrow]

I don't have time to respond so much now but a key/profile should still be created with all of the abilites shown with the forces(as he got full acces with them) and nigh-omniscience.

He is already getting a key for the form he is empowered with the Forces

Also higher tier than base as he can request how much power he want from the forces same seen as reverse flash does to agument his power barry would be able to do the same and should have atleast high- 1c via energy absortion from natural forces.

There's nothing to show that he can get as much power as he wants. In the same way, there's nothing to say that Thawn can get as much power as he wants. He can only get more power, but that doesn't mean he can get as much power as he wants.

And he’s not High 1-C via absorption too because he doesn't absorb all the forces. And there is nothing to suggest that he can do it.

 

[ByArrow]

ByAsura can you ping a few staff?

 

[Isaacbobanka]

He is already getting a key for the form he is empowered with the Forces

There's nothing to show that he can get as much power as he wants. In the same way, there's nothing to say that Thawn can get as much power as he wants. He can only get more power, but that doesn't mean he can get as much power as he wants.

And he’s not High 1-C via absorption too because he doesn't absorb all the forces. And there is nothing to suggest that he can do it.

Then why did he absorb the forces? in the fight we see that the forces transform into pure energy which flash then absorbs to free him from being stuck in time and since he absorbed the energies from the forces shouldn't he be equal to them?

he littarly absorbed them here:


not to mention he stopped the forces tornado which even if it was the universe scaled forces he still stopped it while being amped so he himself powerd should still scale to it

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Disagree with OP atm.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

My friend, stop doing this and UNDERSTAND that this scale is not correct. People say the same things 150 times

DISAGREE

 

[Isaacbobanka]

My friend, stop doing this and UNDERSTAND that this scale is not correct. People say the same things 150 times

DISAGREE

Ive already dropped the entire flash scaling to the forces in base thing even though i still think its true

do you agree with the flash when empowerd by the forces scaling to them via absortion? and scaling to the big bang via stopping reverse big bang

 

[Isaacbobanka]

My friend, stop doing this and UNDERSTAND that this scale is not correct. People say the same things 150 times

DISAGREE

Flash was also able to restrain bloodwork during his crisis


who could weaken the spectre to the point that he was basicly powerless:

• Bloodwork's infection can damage the multiverse and the Specter's powers. Oliver was still the Spectre, but could only manifest as the Green Arrow; due to his powers being dampened

https://arrow.fandom.com/wiki/Spectres

 

[ByAsura]

His cells had spread across a wide range, but were still metastasising, so he was weakening The Spectre but hadn't actually become powerful.