Concerns about Sora's tiering...

[TheDudeMcDude]

I've looked through previous threads and I've seen that the reason Sora is ranked at this tier is for two different scalings.

1. Being scaled to Zeus' constellation feat via Hades

2. Kingdom Hearts powered Xemnas

I have a problem with both of these "feats".

Scaling Sora to Zeus via Hades is a rediculous outlier to me. People say that Hades is on the same tier as Zeus due to them being Gods. Ok, this is where the problem comes in. Disney Hades has never EVER been seen comparable to Zeus in any way, neither in Kingdom Hearts, nor the Hercules movie or T.V. series. Heck, his whole plan in the film was to release the Titans so that he would have enough strength to defeat Zeus and even then he never actually defeated him, he just sealed him away in molten rock.

Evidence:

At 0:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6gB0GzJ30

Hades, in the Disney canon, has always been portrayed as a pushover and not particularly strong in his own right and when it comes to the Titans, Sora has only ever defeated two of them, and that's only seperately, never has he fought them all at once, the only thing that could scale Sora to multi-Titan level is the fact that he can fight and defeat Hercules who was capable of lifting 4 Titans at once and throw them in to space, which I admit is impressive lifting and throwing strength, but there is literally nothing ekse to scale Sora off of, which brings me to the more rediculous outlier, the Constellation feat.

At the end of the Olympus Colliseum level in KH 2, Zeus rearranges the Constellations in the shape of Sora, Donald and Goofy in celebration of them becoming true heroes. I have one question, HOW THE HELL DOES SORA'S STRENGTH SCALE TO THIS? In KH 2 we have no idea how Zeus went about doing this, so I'm going to give the game the benefit of the doubt and assume that he done it the same way he did it in the movie.

Evidence:

At 2:06

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq5Ofb7b4Hs

Judging from Zeus' hand gesturing here, I'm going to assume that he is using some sort of cosmic/god/magic energy to do this, NOT PHYSICAL STRENGTH. Also even if he was capable of doing this physically it would still be an extreme outlier, because Zeus was not capable of breaking free of the molten rock that the Titans sealed him in. You'd think a Solar System tier character would be able to break free of that, but no. Again, I call outlier.


Reason number 2:

Xemnas powered by an incomplete Kingdom Hearts sclaes Sora at Solar System level because.....?

This legit makes no sense to me. Yes Xemnas became very powerful when absorbed the power of Kingodm Hearts, but what did he do when he got that power? Well, he threw some buildings around, became a lot faster, got a giant dragon space ship and well....? Again there is nothing based on striking strength to suggest that he is Solar System level. The only thing close would be towards the final stages of the fight, Xemnas, I assume, creates a pocket dimension to fight Sora and Riku in.

THe reason this isn't viable to me is because we never actually see it, how do we know Xemnas just didn't teleport himself and Sora and Riku to another dimension, how do we know he made it. the cutscene literally just shows that Sora, Riku and Xemnas appearing in another realm with no suggestion of how they got there.

Evidence:

At 32:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsQVVne25Po

Even if we were to assume that Xemnas made this dimension, that doesn't imply the same power equates to striking strength or attack potency. If it did equate to attack potency, wouldn't Xemnas just be able to trap Sora and Riku in that dimension and then just unleash an attack that would cause it to get completely destroyed?

When it comes to Sora and most KH characters on this website, I am beginning to fel as though a lot of their feats and tiering is based on outliers and assumptions, because, I'm sorry but when I call the tiering into question and actually research it, I can't see the tiering holding any solid ground and I am an enormous fan of Kingdom Hearts, but I have to call it out when people severely over estimate the characters and tiering.

 

[Jesterofgames]

KH is solar system Because it created like Hundreds of stars with there planets IIRC

(planets don't give off ebougb luminosity to be Visable like stars do)

 

[Reppuzan]

This topic has been beaten to death...

We're not scaling Sora to Zeus because of Hades.

We're scaling Sora to Zeus because of Kingdom Hearts.

The power of Kingdom Hearts (as you know) has the ability to create, restore, and (potentially) destroy hundreds of worlds. Each of these worlds are virtually unique, with no indication that they share a day-night cycle (hence why you can walk over to differently lit worlds like Twilight Town and the Pride Lands or Halloween Town and Agrabah). Hence it's reasonable to assume that each of these worlds has its own Sun and (in the case of worlds like the Land of Departure) entire starry skies.

Even absorbing a fraction of this energy would be enough to qualify one for Solar System level. By absorbing this energy, Xemnas should be at least this powerful, as well as most other veteran Keyblade Wielders since they actively pose a threat to him.

The Zeus feat only corroborates this by being able to move dozens worlds at a time. It could be godly magic, sure, but movement requires energy. The combined kinetic energy of these stars would easily reach Solar System level, but we use GBE (the amount of energy required to destroy a star) in order to avoid breaking the laws of physics given that they're obviously moving at relativistic speeds.

How does Sora's strength scale to this? Easy.

Sora's strength as a Keyblade Master-level fighter not only scales to Xemnas, who was actively utilizing his newfound power as Twilight Xemnas, but he is also comparable to other characters like Aqua who fought Ventus-Vanitas, whose x-blade was also a partial invocation of Kingdom Hearts' full power. If they were so much weaker than their foes, then they should have been easily blown backward or by these characters' attacks, but they weren't and actually managed to defeat them in the end.

At the moment you're appealing to absurdity rather than logic, and this is not the first time we've had to deal with this.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

KH is solar system Because it created like Hundreds of stars with there planets IIRC
(planets don't give off ebougb luminosity to be Visable like stars do)

O'k, but how does that translate to attack potency? Again we don't see Xemnas do anything on that scale and remember, Xemnas was powered by an incomplete Kingdom Hearts which was missing an enormous section of itself.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Twillight Xemnas was stated by Tetsuya Nomura to be, at the time, the most powerful being in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Meaning that Xemnas > Zeus.

Also the incomplete Kingdom Heart he absorbed was like, 20% of the original.

 

[Reppuzan]

@TheDude

Energy is energy. By being able to contain and utilize this level of power, it should logically scale to his attacks if he's using it that way.

Even 1% of being able to destroy hundreds of worlds would be Solar System level due to the sheer amount of energy involved.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Swarms of Heartless are also capable of destroying planets by consuming the Heart of the World, which acts as its core.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And let's not mention how Ansem was consuming a planet at the end of Kingdom Hearts I, or how the Keyblade War split a supermassive planet into thousands of Earth-sized planets, and all the warriors in the Keyblade War wanted to obtain the X-Blade, which Vanitas does obtain.

 

[Reppuzan]

On top of that, Kingdom Hearts is consistently treated as the most powerful object in the series.

There's a reason why Xehanort is going after it instead of trying to turn Zeus into a Heartless, which, as shown by Xaldin's efforts in Beast's Castle, is completely and utterly in his MO.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oh, and the Ansen Reports explictly state that Keyblade Users can destroy Worlds.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Matt

And that worlds are planets (read Ansem Reports 9 and 6 for the quotes we're referring to).

The Everlasting also brought up to me the fact that there is also a "greater World" in Xehanort's Report VIII in which all other Worlds are contained, thus referring to a universe. Hence, it's logical that Kingdom Hearts is the source of these worlds as it is the source of the worlds' hearts. A mere fraction of a percent of the energy value required to create a universe would be Solar System level. So an incomplete Kingdom Hearts is thus a non-issue when it comes to determining that Xemnas is indeed Solar System level.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

This topic has been beaten to death...
We're not scaling Sora to Zeus because of Hades.

We're scaling Sora to Zeus because of Kingdom Hearts.

The power of Kingdom Hearts (as you know) has the ability to create, restore, and (potentially) destroy hundreds of worlds. Each of these worlds are virtually unique, with no indication that they share a day-night cycle (hence why you can walk over to differently lit worlds like Twilight Town and the Pride Lands or Halloween Town and Agrabah). Hence it's reasonable to assume that each of these worlds has its own Sun and (in the case of worlds like the Land of Departure) entire starry skies.

Even absorbing a fraction of this energy would be enough to qualify one for Solar System level. By absorbing this energy, Xemnas should be at least this powerful, as well as most other veteran Keyblade Wielders since they actively pose a threat to him.

The Zeus feat only corroborates this by being able to move dozens worlds at a time. It could be godly magic, sure, but movement requires energy. The combined kinetic energy of these stars would easily reach Solar System level, but we use GBE (the amount of energy required to destroy a star) in order to avoid breaking the laws of physics given that they're obviously moving at relativistic speeds.

How does Sora's strength scale to this? Easy.

Sora's strength as a Keyblade Master-level fighter not only scales to Xemnas, who was actively utilizing his newfound power as Twilight Xemnas, but he is also comparable to other characters like Aqua who fought Ventus-Vanitas, whose x-blade was also a partial invocation of Kingdom Hearts' full power. If they were so much weaker than their foes, then they should have been easily blown backward or by these characters' attacks, but they weren't and actually managed to defeat them in the end.

At the moment you're appealing to absurdity rather than logic, and this is not the first time we've had to deal with this.

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

O'k, you have come the closest to convincing me the most about Sora's Solar System tiering, but again, it feels very convoluted when put in context of Sora's other enemies Sora has faced.

If Sora has this much attack potential, how is it that characters such as The Beagle Boys or Lock, Shock and Barrel are at least capablr of holding their own against Sora and Donald and Goofy at the same time? Are you going to say that they are Solar System tier? Heck, they must be if they are at least capable of damaging him. If that's the case then I feel the tiering is even more broken.

Heck even Flotsam and Jetsam are capable of, at the very least, subduing Sora.

Evidence:

0:43

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHZ952rYh10

Unless they were endowed with some sort of magic/darkness/plot armour which allowed this. Although, this isn't the first moment of inconsistency with Kingdom Hearts, such as how are the 3 Hyenas able to hold their own against Sora, Donald and Goofy when they are supposed to be such power-houses? The same could be said, again, for The Beagle Boys, Lock, Shock and Barrel or even Sabor, Captain Hook, Barbssa, undead Pirates. He even struggles against Shan Yu.

Evidence:

2:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyS713JjagY

Unless, of course they are all Solar System tier too, despite never actually displaying that kind of power output. This is why I feel a lot of the tiering is based on assumptions and misconceptions. Yes, Nomura stated that Xemnas was the most powerful being in the KH verse towards the end of KH2, but I don't think that words like that should carry any weight when actually examining the actual in-game content.

I can do the exact same thing by creating a character and tiering them up with weightless statements, for example...

This is Bob...




...Now, Bob may not look like much, but he's accomplished a lot, he's incredibly powerful. He has destroyed (mythological) Thor in a complete stomp. Now scaling this stomp to (mythological) Odin, Bob should be able to destroy Odin, too.

See how hyperbolic this is? It's just a bunch of empty statements, without any kind of in-story validity to it.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I've been playing Kingdom Hearts since the very first game and even playing through all games multiple times, I just don't think Sora comes close to a lot of the tiering that this site places him at, especially since the games present Sora's strength very inconsistently. It's almost as if the Lore, Gameplay and Cutscenes of the series were constructed by completely different people with conflicting power-scaling.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'll answer all that with one word.

PIS.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

I'll answer all that with one word.
PIS.

...and again, that's not good enough, especially since the PIS moments feel far more consistent than the, supposed, lore.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Sora being inconvenienced by Disney villains is PIS whether he's 4-B or 8-B.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

...and yet it seems to happen a lot.

 

[The_Everlasting]

And your point is?

It's blatant PIS given the types of villains that Sora challenges.

 

[PaChi2]

cough jaffar cough

Nvm this comment.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

...or maybe the "Sora being inconvenienced by Disney villains" is the actual solid tiering and the "Solar System" tiered moments are PIS.

 

[Reppuzan]

@TheDude

You can't answer a negative with a negative. The burden of proof is on your to prove that Sora's feats are PIS.

Given the fact that the lore dictates how Keyblade Wielders are responsible for the salvation and destruction of Worlds, I don't see how this is outliery PIS.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You do realize that using the Disney Villains as an argument is flawed in itself, right? On one world Sora might struggled with a Heartless Empowered Clayton, but in another world he is fighting Disney Hercules, Hades and Titans, and then in another he is defeating Genie Jafar.

The power levels don't matter on the Disney Worlds. The worlds are there for fanservice for tha fans of the movies. The main plot of Kingdom Hearts isn't about the Disney Movies, but about original characters.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Matt

Not to mention that the Disney worlds have much better feats than the movies in some cases.

Such as Sora and Simba fighting the Groundshaker in Pride Lands, or the Stealth Sneak in Deep Jungle having a Building level feat.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

Yes the lore dictates how the Keyblade Wielders are more-or-less protectors of all worlds, light etc. Heck I could probably accept Planet Level Sora on that concept alone, but due to how inconsistent KH is when it comes to correlating the gameplay with lore and proper scaling, I just don't see it. As I stated in my previous comment...

"This is why I feel a lot of the tiering is based on assumptions and misconceptions. Yes, Nomura stated that Xemnas was the most powerful being in the KH verse towards the end of KH2, but I don't think that words like that should carry any weight when actually examining the actual in-game content.

I can do the exact same thing by creating a character and tiering them up with weightless statements, for example...

This is Bob...

[1]


...Now, Bob may not look like much, but he's accomplished a lot, he's incredibly powerful. He has destroyed (mythological) Thor in a complete stomp. Now scaling this stomp to (mythological) Odin, Bob should be able to destroy Odin, too.

See how hyperbolic this is? It's just a bunch of empty statements, without any kind of in-story validity to it.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I've been playing Kingdom Hearts since the very first game and even playing through all games multiple times, I just don't think Sora comes close to a lot of the tiering that this site places him at, especially since the games present Sora's strength very inconsistently. It's almost as if the Lore, Gameplay and Cutscenes of the series were constructed by completely different people with conflicting power-scaling."

Again, it's the inconsistency between Lore, Gameplay and in-game Cutscenes that really strikes a nerve when it comes to dictating the scaling of Sora and other KH characters. Instead of going with what could be percieved as Sora's highest tiering i.e. "Solar System Level" and try to present a middle-ground tieiring that feels more consistent.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Your argument and analogy doesn't even make sense.

 

[PaChi2]

Btw, you shouldnt use the Disney and that stuff as argument. Otherwise we could bring the fact that sora stalemated Sephiroth (4-B in FF VII) or fought Squall (3-C in FF VIII). Take it as you like.

 

[Reppuzan]

@TheDude

That's the thing about RPGs. They very rarely deal actual environmental damage. Right now you are making liberal use of the AOE Fallacy, in which you try to downplay a character based on the fact that their attacks don't automatically deal catastrophic amounts of damage to the environment.

The statements are not empty if they're the focus of the story.

If Zeus was so much greater than Kingdom Hearts and the Keyblade Wielders, why isn't Xehanort trying to turn him into a Heartless or make him a vessel?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also, TheDude, if you're trying to go the "I've played the series a lot" route as an argument.

I've been playing Kingdom Hearts since it was a brand new franchise, going through every game multiple times, doing practically everything possible in all of them, reading all of the Ultimanias, etc.

If you think your credibility is based on how much you play the game, I would have far more than you.

 

[TheDudeMcDude]

@TheDude
That's the thing about RPGs. They very rarely deal actual environmental damage. Right now you are making liberal use of the AOE Fallacy, in which you try to downplay a character based on the fact that their attacks don't automatically deal catastrophic amounts of damage to the environment.

The statements are empty if they're the focus of the story.

If Zeus was so much greater than Kingdom Hearts and the Keyblade Wielders, why isn't Xehanort trying to turn him into a Heartless or make him a vessel?

I'm aware that RPGs deal with a lot of PIS, the one that comes to mind is Sephiroth's Solar System attack.

Maybe Zeus is stronger than Xehanort? He could be, we haven't seen how the existence of Keyblades correlates with the gods. Maybe We'll find out in KH3, anyway, it's clear I'm not making a difference with this argument.

If you want to close this thread, be my guest, but I've stated my Pet Peeves with the many inconsistencies the series has and while many people have stated good arguments, they haven't exactly swayed my views.

 

[The_Everlasting]

If Zeus were stronger than Xehanort, he would be going after him and not Kingdom Hearts.

Not to mention that, again, Xemnas was stated to be the most powerful character in Kingdom Hearts up to Kingdom Hearts II, which would include Zeus.