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Composite Hierarchies Rework

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Elyartaker

Elyartaker

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Hello everyone!
I hope everyone is having a great day.
permission by Mr Bambu

In this thread, I would like to propose an update to one of our oldest (and most outdated) pages, which also happens to be one of the most important ones.

Update: After our discussion, we have decided to either delete the page or update it to contain both qualitative and quantitative structures. CHECK THE BLOG! we shall rework the definition and add it to FAQ if agreed.

First, let us define the current page:
Composite Hierarchies are cosmological structures consisting of layers (each layer can be thought of as its own hierarchy), where higher layers are considered higher planes of existence. The main attributes of such setting are:
  • The difference between layers goes beyond the physical (higher)dimensional differences of lower ones.
  • They usually have reality-fiction transcendence, where higher layers perceive lower ones as fiction.
  • Higher layers can be described as metaphysical realms (often seen as conceptual or abstract).
  • Exclusive for high end fiction(vague but it is what it is)
Sounds familiar no? The first attribute shows a difference that exceeds quantitative distinctions, since higher realms should transcend all collections of lower realms and their notions of dimensionality.
The second attribute reflects our current idea of reality-fiction transcendence. By combining the first, second, and third attributes we get qualitative superiority. The fourth attribute also can be referring to 1-A and above by current standards(most likely even all time).

Here’s the blog I wrote about how I update the page:
Composite Hierarchies
In short I would like to make that higher layers in Composite Hierarchies should have qualitative superiority over lower layers. This reflects better with our system and makes the page less vague.

Some might argue that the current page says "usually" has reality-fiction transcendence and doesn’t require it. But this has problems:
  • Composite Hierarchies are usually qualitative.
  • Even putting qualitative stuff aside, the first attribute (most likely) alone already makes them minimum Low 1-A.
  • The current description reflects the older system, which is not compatible with modern VSBW as BDE and dimensionality for 1-A and above were once treated as arbitrarily complex dimensions yet still quantitative and reachable from lesser sets of "standard" dimensions(which is why it says usually).
(or just delete the page)

So yeah that's it.

Thanks for reading!

REWORK & ADD TO FAQ
AGREE : Antvasima - Qawsedf234
DISAGREE : Agnaa
NEUTEAL :

DELETE ENTIRELY
AGREE : Agnaa - Elizhaa
DISAGREE :
NEUTEAL : Qawsedf234
 
Last edited:
I think there's some missing context here, so just going to share what I remember.

The reason why Composite Hierarchies was made was to describe layered cosmologies in which a layer denotes a higher dimensional increase than 1, it's was not in the context of Qualitative vs Quantitative as we currently have and maybe the fact that the page wasn't updated to describe that and just left it open to "it can be reality-fiction or not", because then technically nothing needs to change, might have made people confused that it was talking about the current standards.

Essentially, the page was created because, way back in the day (the page was created in 2017), there were franchises with cosmologies in which the dimensional value for different layered worlds, realms, and domains differed by more than one, with the main example being Umineko. Basically, it was accepted that a layered increase in Umineko would give more dimensions than 1 (I think it was 4 or 6, can't remember correctly), and to make a new standard that could easily be used as an example "If you can prove that two layers differ in more dimensions than one, you can assume that the difference in all layers is the same", the Composite Hierarchies page was created (And since it's a new standard, it could also be an example for other works with a similar system).

This is why it's called "Composite"; it's used to denote that it's something made up of more than one thing. In this case, it was mostly used to describe the transition from one layer to another, which could be moving from 3D to 5D.

Similarly, the reason why it references reality-fiction, dreams, etc, was all because back in the day, those things were seen as examples for dimensional difference of a different kind that could explain why the dimensional jump was more than 1D (And of course, those were terms commonly used by those high-end works back in the day, such as Umineko).

Honestly, IIRC Umineko doesn't even use that anymore, and I can't remember any current work that actually uses Composite Hierarchies for their justifications in its original meaning. This makes me question if it's even a needed page, or if the current system just explains these different possibilities better and is unnecessary.
 
Interesting.
This really goes way back, and it clearly shows how outdated the page is.

I believe my proposal can update it to match our current standards, making it much more consistent with the newer high tier verses (even something like Umineko or DC).

So what do you think about my draft? The new meaning I have.
 
I think it might be fine to just delete it, it doesn't seem too relevant nowadays.

I disagree with the OP; composite hierarchies don't necessarily qualify for 1-A, so the page shouldn't be written as if they do. Beyond the first criteria not actually being enough by itself, fiction can include anti-feats for 1-A, while still having the over cosmological structure be a composite hierarchy.
 
Agnaa said:
I disagree with the OP; composite hierarchies don't necessarily qualify for 1-A, so the page shouldn't be written as if they do. Beyond the first criteria not actually being enough by itself, fiction can include anti-feats for 1-A, while still having the over cosmological structure be a composite hierarchy.
Click to expand...
I’m not saying composite hierarchies are inherently minimum of 1-A the way the current page defines them. Rather I think there is groundwork to overhaul and update it so it better matches our current tiering system. If you disagree with the rework, that is fine.
And yes, fiction and its possibilities are massive, but I believe my definition covers the most common interpretations.

That said, I’m also fine with deleting the page since it really doesn’t add much value to the wiki.
 
I agree with deleting the page; it seems rather pointless to me.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I can think of a revision but like Agnna said it wouldn't default to 1-A and needs to be more robust.

When I get home today I'll try to make a draft of how I think it should work.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot for helping out. 🙏❤️
 
So my main issue with the page is that Composite Hierarchies are working withthe view that the cosmology is always a R>F instead of having that as one of the possible options. Both the current page:
Composite Hierarchies are cosmological setting found in high end fiction, where the overarching setting is detailed in "layers, realms, planes, domains, etc.".

Within such a cosmology, the difference between these layers/planes is actually greater than the difference between physical dimensions, due to each layer containing several dimensions within them. Otherwise, these can be known as metaphysical layers.

In most cases, these meta-layers have a reality-fiction difference, meaning, the difference between each layer (not the dimensions of the layer) is like the difference between reality and fiction. Basically, to a higher layer entity, the lower entity is so insignificant that it can hardly be called real.

Not all composite hierarchies have a reality-fiction difference, and lack of a such difference does not disqualify a cosmology from being classified as composite.

Also, a composite hierarchy still fits into the Tiering System, whereas each individual cosmology should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis and tiered accordingly.
Click to expand...
And the suggested rewrite:
Composite Hierarchies are cosmological structures commonly found in high end fiction (1-A and above), where the cosmology is composed of multiple layers of existence, often referred to as realms, planes, domains, and similar terms.

Within such cosmologies, it is common for each layer to possess its own notion of dimensionality and governing principles, which completely surpass those of the lower layers. Sometimes these layers are depicted as metaphysical in nature, transcending descriptions that are limited to lesser realities.

The difference between higher and lower layers goes far beyond quantitative distinctions, as such higher layers possess qualitative superiority, utterly transcending the lower ones.

It is also common for such cosmologies to have reality–fiction transcendence between layers, though this is not strictly necessary (minus the qualitative superiority which is a must).
Click to expand...
Are under the view that most of the time a composite hierarchy must be, or is generally, a 1-A space. This was fine back when R>F with just +1D, but it's sorta fallen off with the redefinition of those tiers.

With that said, in my view, the page can still be used; it just requires an overall. A composite hierarchy should serve as an explanation that a cosmology doesn't have to follow a stair-step dimensional order (3D < 4D < 5D < ... ∞D), and instead it can look something like the following: Mortal Realm (3-D) < Divine Realm (4D to 10D) < Super Divine Realm (11D - ∞D)

So, with that said, this would be my suggested rewrite:
Composite Hierarchies are cosmological structures where the difference between two realms is greater than a singular dimensional jump. Within such cosmologies, it is common for each layer within these realms to possess its own notion of dimensionality and governing principles, which are surpassed in size and scope by the higher layers within the realm. Sometimes these realms are depicted as metaphysical in nature, transcending descriptions that are limited to lesser realities, with the realm being metaphysically or qualitatively superior to the lesser realm within the cosmology.

A key aspect of a Composite Hierarchy cosmology is that the realm itself must be subdivided into smaller sections of itself. Rather than a series of increasingly larger realms, spaces, dimensions, or planes that contain a singular dimensional jump, the realm instead contains multiple greater spaces within itself.

For qualitative or metaphysical jumps, an important note must be taken. A qualitative difference means that a realm must work on a fundamentally separate and superior standard than the "normal" reality. While the difference between the two realms can qualify as a qualitative difference, the same realm cannot contain both a 1-A and a lower reality within itself, as an Outerversal realm can never be subdivided to get into a non-Outerversal realm.

Examples:

  • Subspace from Marvel comics is a singular realm that contains an infinite number of layers with increasing spatial dimensions
  • The Digital World from Digimon has multiple infinitely larger layers within itself
  • The 07th Expansion Series features multiple realms that have a reality-fiction difference between them, while also containing increasing larger layers within each realm
  • The Dreamlands from the Cthulhu Mythos is a realm where each dream is infinitely recursive in ever larger dreams
Click to expand...
If that doesn't satisfy people, I would just get rid of the page otherwise.
 
Given how the original usage was to provide an example for evaluators of how certain series could have "layers" that constitute more than one dimension, I don't think there's a point in having it, even in its rewritten version. Our evaluators should know that by now, given how they're staff, have a lot more experience, and 1-A stuff inherently involves that sort of thing.
 
Agnaa said:
Given how the original usage was to provide an example for evaluators of how certain series could have "layers" that constitute more than one dimension, I don't think there's a point in having it, even in its rewritten version. Our evaluators should know that by now, given how they're staff, have a lot more experience, and 1-A stuff inherently involves that sort of thing.
Click to expand...
I think the same
In general, the current tiering page already makes very clear how layered cosmologies can work and there's a much bigger understanding of this kind of stuff than back in the day. I personally just don't feel the need of that page anymore.
 
I personally like Qawsedf234's new version, as we cannot remotely assume that all of our members, and particularly our visitors, are automatically familiar with this concept. 🙏
 
Apologies for my late response, I was busy today🌷.

I agree with Qawsedf. Combining his idea with mine, so that both dimensional and qualitative gaps are included in the rework is the best approach(updated the blog). It gives the page a bigger scope and covers a wider fictional verses.

I also think we should probably link this page (in a meaningful way) in other important pages (if we decide not to remove it).
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think? Should we revise or delete this page? We apparently wouldn't have to remove links to it from a significant amount of pages if we delete it. 🙏
Click to expand...
This is basically just an elaboration/clarification on part of the tiering system, so I think it would make more sense in the FAQ rather than its own page.

So, I think we should delete it, but I think we should move the revised elaborations to the FAQ under a new question: "What is a Composite Hierarchy?"
 
Executor_N0 said:
I would ask, which franchises are even using the concept actively on the wiki as of now? Honestly, I don't know any examples.
Click to expand...
I don't have a full list for you, but a lot of the verses above 1-A end up having qualitative layers and/or qualify as a composite hierarchy.

The revised page has some examples:
  • Subspace from Marvel comics is a singular realm that contains an infinite number of layers with increasing spatial dimensions
  • The Digital World from Digimon has multiple infinitely larger layers within itself
  • The 07th Expansion Series features multiple realms that have a reality-fiction difference between them, while also containing increasing larger layers within each realm
  • The Dreamlands from the Cthulhu Mythos is a realm where each dream is infinitely recursive in ever larger dreams
Click to expand...
 
At which point is something considered a "multilayered realm" instead of just a general part of the cosmology like any other?

That is to say, at which point does a general world hierarchy stop being the same hierarchy and starts being multiple hierarchies with layers upon themselves as something meaningful instead of just a category that subdivides a whole?

Using the Digimon as an example, I myself as a Digimon researcher, can't say exactly if the hierarchies of the material plane, the network plane, and the Digital World are meant to be different, or just a singular hierarchy that is subdivided by a practical usage (That is, the difference is only by what is commonly used by humans or not).
I also have a question about the categorization regarding one of the last lines.

While the difference between the two realms can qualify as a qualitative difference, the same realm cannot contain both a 1-A and a lower reality within itself, as an Outerversal realm can never be subdivided to get into a non-Outerversal realm.
Click to expand...
Since you can have a world hierarchy that goes from 1-A to non-1-A, it's also possible to have subdivisions that gather layers as a singular realm that contains both 1-A and non-1-A domains. The Q&A only says that a quantitative difference doesn't allow for 1-A to become non-1-A, if the difference is qualitative, it's possible, it's the whole point of emanationism. So let's say you have a cosmology divided as the Noetic Kosmos, the Psychic Kosmos and the Generative Kosmos, each having their own layers and hierarchies included in the larger hierarchy. In the Generative Kosmos you can have the sub-lunar realm that is our material universe, but also higher metaphysical realms that transcend the physical qualitatively, but don't reach the layer of the Psychic Kosmos. Would such a case not be considered valid because it has a Kosmos with both non-1-A and 1-A elements?


This is to say, would there be some actual meaningful difference between a standard cosmology and a "composite hierarchy", or does it only refer to a categorical case in which it just happens that multiple layers are gathered under a singular denomination? I ask this because when differences are only categorical and the names are what matter, stuff can get quite muddy and confuse readers who only seem to know by categorization and not application.

Like, if you have a cosmology that is well defined in a physical layer and a metaphysical layer, but the characters can freely go from one layer to the other because they have learned how to understand their soul to be free from the illusion of time and space, but also enter the illusion if they so desire, and both layers are just seen as different sides of a "universe", would that go against the notion from the statement in the Composite Hierarchy page that "A qualitative difference means that a realm must work on a fundamentally separate and superior standard than the 'normal' reality"?

Honestly, this question could already have been a case for the old definition, but I think that the context at the time from the users could have required the warning back in the day.

I thought that nowadays the pages and users would already have been accustomed to dealing with applications rather than categorization, but if needed, maybe it could be kept with more descriptions for application.
 
Executor_N0 said:
Would such a case not be considered valid because it has a Kosmos with both non-1-A and 1-A elements?
Click to expand...
It would not. Because 1-A requires an independent framework of reality. It can't be built on top of a lower reality per the FAQ.

Executor_N0 said:
would that go against the notion from the statement in the Composite Hierarchy page that "A qualitative difference means that a realm must work on a fundamentally separate and superior standard than the 'normal' reality"?
Click to expand...
Your example of souls have it being tied to the material plane, which already makes it an anti-feat for 1-A afaik.
 
I can't really endorse your phrasing here, Qawsed. A stack of reality-fiction layers would have the higher ones "built on top of lower ones" to some extent, and have them all a part of one framework, but that wouldn't contradict them being 1-A.
 
Agnaa said:
I can't really endorse your phrasing here, Qawsed. A stack of reality-fiction layers would have the higher ones "built on top of lower ones" to some extent, and have them all a part of one framework, but that wouldn't contradict them being 1-A.
Click to expand...
You can have a stack of 1-A layers built on top of each other, my point is that you couldn't have a non 1-A layer and a 1-A layer be part of the same realm or cosmological layer per our rules. The Psychic Kosmos can be a 1-A+ amount of layers and that's fine, but the Generative Kosmos can't have a 1-A layer built on top of non 1-A stuff, as its not working on a seperate framework.
 
This might just be a wording particularity then.

You can have four realms, the first of which is Low 2-C, and the last three of which are 1-A. And you could describe those four realms using an overarching cosmological term.

SCP wouldn't be disqualified from 1-A just because its "narrative stack" includes 11-C, Low 1-A, and 1-A things, since that cosmological construct is built on the framework of qualitative jumps.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
It would not. Because 1-A requires an independent framework of reality. It can't be built on top of a lower reality per the FAQ.


Your example of souls have it being tied to the material plane, which already makes it an anti-feat for 1-A afaik.
Click to expand...
Maybe that is where there's some confusion there, because as I said, the assumption from my example was a qualitative difference between the physical and metaphysical layer, one in which it's clear that the physical layer of space and time is merely assumed to be an illusion, which implies a different framework in which they work (That is to say, one is transcendentally infinite instead of quantitatively infinite), and yet they being categorized under a same term is supposed to override the application of how the two function differently (That is to say, here we consider the category as more important than the application).

That is, if I picked some Neoplatonic work that properly depicts the difference between the sensible world and the intelligible world, but groups them as "The Universe", it would cease being a proper representation of the intelligible world just because it groups them as "things that somewhat exist" alongside the sensible world, even while recognizing their natural differences?
This is basically what I asked about the nature of these categorizations, as it might give too much importance to a name that does not imply anything about function. I ask this because there are many cases in which a whole hierarchy that includes very clear 1-A elements is grouped with non-1-A elements as part of a layer that is lower than even higher 1-A elements, especially when it's a word that can have multiple meanings.

Basically, I think that if "Composite Hierarchy" is only a categorical classification, I just want confirmation that such categorization surpasses direct application as it's portrayed in the suggested page. If it's application-based, then what kind of applications can be used to describe the layers depicted there, and how can we differentiate works that use terms in a categorical way and not (For example, would Megami Tensei stop being considered 1-A because it sometimes groups both its non-1-A realms and 1-A realms as "The World/Universe"?).

This goes back to my question of "when does the actual difference of analyzing the layers comes from", especially when a 1-A realm becomes a Non-1-A realm from the perspective of an even more transcendental realm (As working from Proclus, every infinite other than the first infinite is only infinite in regards to what is below, not what is above, nor itself). For example, in the Marvel Cosmology as currently accepted, the House of Ideas is directly positioned as the first realm (Corresponding to the Malkuth) of a whole new scale of realms starting from it, so you could say that although it's certainly a metaphysical realm is regards to the realms below it, it's a physical realm to even higher realms.

Naturally the difference between 1-A and non-1-A realms is the qualitatively difference, when the transcendence can't be described by a continuous increase, only by discrete jumps, but you can still group these discrete jumps together in some way, and it happens both in classical works and current fiction, and you could call these groupings "layers" and then position it alongside other "layers" of even higher realms.
 
BUMP +
This has been a somewhat interesting topic. Since in this case, there is no absolute right or wrong here in my opinion, as it is more rooted in preference.
I would still advocate for keeping the Composite Hierarchies page. Verses that do qualify for it are pretty unique, and people will be less confused if we keep the explanation available.
I’m active on off site places(tiktok,telegram and etc), both English and non English, and I have seen people get very confused about how some of the wiki’s policies work, often interpreting them in the worst possible way. Having an explanation for Composite Hierarchies and updating it to match our current standards is the best move.
I also think we have gone a bit off track here. The main premise is describing a certain classification for a specific type of cosmological model.
Similar to how a universe can be Low 2-C in one verse yet 1-A in another, Composite Hierarchies (in their updated form) would act as a classification from a range from 11-C up to High 1-A. So whether or not a verse includes them wouldn’t disqualify it from qualifying for a certain tier.
 
So what is the current staff consensus here? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
So what is the current staff consensus here? 🙏
Click to expand...
Agnaa, Eliza, Lawyer, and from what I can see, Executor don't really see the point in keeping the page around anymore.

Finepoint thinks the page should be deleted, but an FAQ point should be added.

I was writing under the assumption of just keeping it, but currently, it may be worth making it into a FAQ thing and removing the page.
 
Okay. Adding a new FAQ section, and turning the old page into a redirect link, seems best in that case. 🙏
 
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