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CM for Zhuo Fan Third time lol

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Youngwolf-0.1

Youngwolf-0.1

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Lol this is the third time that i propose cm for zhuo fan. After long discuss with @Le_démon_Araii we decide to create this thread



So let's start

“Dao is the foundation of everything in existence, discarded like a rag the minute the demonic path arrived... The world is tainted, no longer caring about Dao... I shall stand in heaven’s stead to enact the Dao by purging all demons... you all must be removed for being opposite of my path.”
Click to expand...
The Dao is explicitly stated to be the foundation basis of existence. The world can discard it, showing that concepts in this verse are mutable and vulnerable to replacement. The Heavenly Sovereign’s intent to “enact the Dao” by removing demonic entities implies an imposition of conceptual order on reality.


Chapter 897 – Heaven’s Will is the Dao​

"Do you know what Heaven's Will is?... Heaven’s Will is Dao, the natural application of natural laws, and the highest of powers..."
Click to expand...
Heaven’s Will = Dao = a metaphysical conceptual law above all others All other powers are said to be "nothing before it", establishing its primacy as a metaphysical constant. This proves that manipulating, opposing, or enacting Dao = affecting the conceptual framework of reality.


Chapter 891 – Six Paths and the Dao Lords​

“Yes, the six paths coexist between this heaven and earth, with all creation belonging to these six paths of reincarnation. The ones who control these paths are the Six Paths Dao Lords...”
Click to expand...
The Six Paths are universal metaphysical concepts governing all creation. Each Dao Lord rules over one path (e.g., humanity, demon, asura, etc.), meaning they manipulate conceptual domains like humanity or evil. Zhuo Fan becoming the Humanity Dao Lord is not symbolic it's direct control over the concept of humanity itself.


Chapter 764 - True Self Art

"Yes, the True Self Art ! A human comes from primal chaos, and being true, he never masked his emotions. But as the years came and went, this truth became blurry. However, cultivators, both demonic and righteous, all must return to Dao, to find their true natures."
Click to expand...
The Venerable Master first tells us that humans come from primordial chaos and that all cultivators must return to the Dao, which implicitly means that primordial chaos is the Dao, given that the verb “return” is synonymous with “come back,” which indicates a return to a previous place, and in this context, that place is the Dao.

Conclusion:​

Zhuo Fan should have cm type 2 because Dao describe as the foundation of existence, Replace or enforce concepts like Demonic Path vs Dao. Control Six Paths, which are conceptual categories of all creation.

Conceptual Manipulation: Type 2(Manipulation of foundational metaphysical concepts like Dao, Path, Heaven’s Will, and the Six Paths)

Also Ten Soverign get cm 2 to if this get accepted
 
I would like to add this

The Dao is the foundation of all existence, it is also the foundation of reality and remains independent of it, for even without reality it will continue to exist, and to manipulate the Dao would mean to manipulate all of existence itself, as Zhuo's true self is the Dao, Zhuo's true self is also the foundation of all existence.

We can also say : "The Dao is the foundation of all reality because it participates in the creation of all existence by being its source."
 
Oh yeah, it is again, cultivation novel's Dao

Youngwolf-0.1 said:
The Dao is explicitly stated to be the foundation basis of existence. The world can discard it, showing that concepts in this verse are mutable and vulnerable to replacement. The Heavenly Sovereign’s intent to “enact the Dao” by removing demonic entities implies an imposition of conceptual order on reality.
Click to expand...
foundation of all existence, sure, but being conceptual is...........kinda a stretch

Youngwolf-0.1 said:
Heaven’s Will = Dao = a metaphysical conceptual law above all others All other powers are said to be "nothing before it", establishing its primacy as a metaphysical constant. This proves that manipulating, opposing, or enacting Dao = affecting the conceptual framework of reality.
Click to expand...
well, law manipulation, of course, could stretch to conceptual manipulation but kinda a reach

Youngwolf-0.1 said:
The Six Paths are universal metaphysical concepts governing all creation. Each Dao Lord rules over one path (e.g., humanity, demon, asura, etc.), meaning they manipulate conceptual domains like humanity or evil. Zhuo Fan becoming the Humanity Dao Lord is not symbolic it's direct control over the concept of humanity itself.
Click to expand...
can i have contexts surrounding this thing??

Youngwolf-0.1 said:
The Venerable Master first tells us that humans come from primordial chaos and that all cultivators must return to the Dao, which implicitly means that primordial chaos is the Dao, given that the verb “return” is synonymous with “come back,” which indicates a return to a previous place, and in this context, that place is the Dao.
Click to expand...
oh yeah, i mean, this whole come from Primordial Chaos, and return back to it is, like, usual thing in Cultivation, like i read over hundred of novels with this Primordial Chaos thing being the start and the end of all thing

Conclusion, i could see some possibly CM here, but well, i need some more evidences before decide on my final opinion

anyway, sleep, it is midnight and i again forgot to watch some good Donghua episodes, damn
 
Vietthai96 said:
Oh yeah, it is again, cultivation novel's Dao


foundation of all existence, sure, but being conceptual is...........kinda a stretch


well, law manipulation, of course, could stretch to conceptual manipulation but kinda a reach


can i have contexts surrounding this thing??


oh yeah, i mean, this whole come from Primordial Chaos, and return back to it is, like, usual thing in Cultivation, like i read over hundred of novels with this Primordial Chaos thing being the start and the end of all thing

Conclusion, i could see some possibly CM here, but well, i need some more evidences before decide on my final opinion

anyway, sleep, it is midnight and i again forgot to watch some good Donghua episodes, damn
Click to expand...
As for your first answer, I leave you with what I said above: a concept is in itself a fragment of the reality it governs, such as death or life, and here we know that the Dao is the foundation of all existence, which includes the reality that is an integral part of existence. The Dao is the very source of existence and therefore also of reality. it is much more than a fragment but the origin of reality and everything it governs
 
Vietthai96 said:
foundation of all existence, sure, but being conceptual is...........kinda a stretch
Click to expand...
Why though

Vietthai96 said:
can i have contexts surrounding this thing??
Click to expand...
what kind of context since this is only part that they explain the sixth path


Vietthai96 said:
anyway, sleep, it is midnight and i again forgot to watch some good Donghua episodes, damn
Click to expand...
Btw im planning to watch Donghua since i never watch it can you recommend me some good Donghua
 
Surprisingly, the verse has no description at all that indicates the concept in its literal sense throughout 1,300 chapters.

In addition, I think that every metaphysical aspect has all the characteristics of the concept.
Yes, and the verse has been stated that the Tao is the natural law, so I think that no matter how the Dao is the fundamental aspect/ definition/ maintenance of existence/ governance... once it is clearly stated as a law,
I think it cannot be a concept unless it is directly stated that the Dao/law is a concept.

Yeah, I think so. You may be proving the inherent properties of the metaphysical aspect that make it a concept, even though it has been clearly stated that it is a law. I don't think that can work without being clearly stated.
 
Youngwolf-0.1 said:
The Six Paths are universal metaphysical concepts governing all creation. Each Dao Lord rules over one path (e.g., humanity, demon, asura, etc.), meaning they manipulate conceptual domains like humanity or evil. Zhuo Fan becoming the Humanity Dao Lord is not symbolic it's direct control over the concept of humanity itself.
Click to expand...
Where is it stated that they can manipulate such concepts?

For now, I disagree with any type of CM tbf, it seems too vague.
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
Surprisingly, the verse has no description at all that indicates the concept in its literal sense throughout 1,300 chapters.

In addition, I think that every metaphysical aspect has all the characteristics of the concept.
Yes, and the verse has been stated that the Tao is the natural law, so I think that no matter how the Dao is the fundamental aspect/ definition/ maintenance of existence/ governance... once it is clearly stated as a law,
I think it cannot be a concept unless it is directly stated that the Dao/law is a concept.

Yeah, I think so. You may be proving the inherent properties of the metaphysical aspect that make it a concept, even though it has been clearly stated that it is a law. I don't think that can work without being clearly stated.
Click to expand...
The Dao is not just a law, it is the source of all existence, the very foundation of it, which also includes reality.

Here we have passages that speak clearly about illusions and reality, that an illusion cannot be real. Zhuo makes a clear distinction between illusion and reality.
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
The Dao is not just a law, it is the source of all existence, the very foundation of it, which also includes reality.

Here we have passages that speak clearly about illusions and reality, that an illusion cannot be real. Zhuo makes a clear distinction between illusion and reality.
Click to expand...
Yeah, thank you for your feedback.
I think that not only the concept but any aspect of metaphysics has this capability. I believe I have expressed most of my opinions above.
The characteristics/abilities of the metaphysical aspect the concept/law/information of type 2... They all possess.
Honestly, even if you try to prove otherwise about, I think if it is not declared a law, then for me, Daos can be a concept.
 
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SweetDao said:
Where is it stated that they can manipulate such concepts?
Click to expand...
They said that all creation belongs to the six paths: humanity, heaven, asura, clarity, demon, animal, hell, and evil. Zhuo Fan has already obtained the Humanity Path, which means he can manipulate the concept of humanity.
SweetDao said:
For now, I disagree with any type of CM tbf, it seems too vague.
Click to expand...
Why? they state that dao is the foundation of all creation
 
Youngwolf-0.1 said:
What do you mean by no?
Click to expand...
Nowhere is it stated that they can manipulate a concept just because they are the "Dao Lord" of a path. It's just that each path has a representative from what I can gather. This has nothing to do with conceptual manipulation.
Youngwolf-0.1 said:
like, since dao is foundation of all creation that not mean one dao is foundation of all creation
Click to expand...
Not really? I mean, even if it is the case, I still don't see the "conceptual" aspect of it.
Youngwolf-0.1 said:
The Rebirth Dao focuses on the control over reincarnation and the Heavenly Rebirth Lake
Click to expand...
Yeah, the Dao birthed everything, I'm fine with this, I don't see why it would be concept, once again. Heck, even worse, because if we assume The Dao (singular) has CM, then no one has CM in the verse since the Dao Lord aren't shown to be able to manipulate it.
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
Yeah, thank you for your feedback.
I think that not only the concept but any aspect of metaphysics has this capability. I believe I have expressed most of my opinions above.
The characteristics/abilities of the metaphysical aspect the concept/law/information of type 2... They all possess.
Honestly, even if you try to prove otherwise about, I think if it is not declared a law, then for me, Daos can be a concept.
Click to expand...
The 10 heavenly paths are presented as universal laws by the Heavenly Sovereign, but the Dao has never been presented as such.

The Celestial Sovereign claims to be able to sense the laws of the world and that there can only be 10 sovereigns. Given that the world = the universe via the pinyin used, we understand that thanks to his path of void, he can sense the other paths, which are laws.

And then we learn from Zhuo that all Sovereigns are “connected” to the world and can sense when they are being observed, so they are bound by the laws of the world, more specifically by the laws of their path.

But the Dao has never been presented as a law, but rather as the power that controls and enforces these laws, a power far superior to the laws themselves.
 
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SweetDao said:
Nowhere is it stated that they can manipulate a concept just because they are the "Dao Lord" of a path. It's just that each path has a representative from what I can gather. This has nothing to do with conceptual manipulation.

Not really? I mean, even if it is the case, I still don't see the "conceptual" aspect of it.

Yeah, the Dao birthed everything, I'm fine with this, I don't see why it would be concept, once again. Heck, even worse, because if we assume The Dao (singular) has CM, then no one has CM in the verse since the Dao Lord aren't shown to be able to manipulate it.
Click to expand...
Zhuo Fan and Ye Tianmao have it because they have attained the Dao, and attaining the Dao means becoming one with it through the true self that is the Dao.
 
SweetDao said:
Nowhere is it stated that they can manipulate a concept just because they are the "Dao Lord" of a path. It's just that each path has a representative from what I can gather. This has nothing to do with conceptual manipulation.
Click to expand...
"Because there are no sentient beings there now. As the Taoist master of humanity, my power comes from the power in people's hearts. There are no sentient beings, which means there are no human hearts. I cannot set foot in a place without human hearts. So he has to solve all this by himself!"
Click to expand...
This proves that his power is derived from the existence of the concept of humanity. Without the metaphysical presence of humanity, even zhuo fan Dao authority is negated. Therefore, zhuo fan interacts with and is empowered by a concept, not just energy or status.
 
Youngwolf-0.1 said:
This proves that his power is derived from the existence of the concept of humanity. Without the metaphysical presence of humanity, even zhuo fan Dao authority is negated. Therefore, zhuo fan interacts with and is empowered by a concept, not just energy or status.
Click to expand...
It seems more like he's empowered by Humans tbf.

Also, are you saying that The Dao is dependent over humanity existing?
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
The 10 heavenly paths are presented as universal laws by the Heavenly Sovereign, but the Dao has never been presented as such.

The Celestial Sovereign claims to be able to sense the laws of the world and that there can only be 10 sovereigns. Given that the world = the universe via the pinyin used, we understand that thanks to his path of void, he can sense the other paths, which are laws.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they can perceive the laws of the world.

Le_démon_Araii said:
And then we learn from Zhuo that all Sovereigns are “connected” to the world and can sense when they are being observed, so they are bound by the laws of the world, more specifically by the laws of their path.

But the Dao has never been presented as a law, but rather as the power that controls and enforces these laws, a power far superior to the laws themselves.
Click to expand...
Anyway, OP has said that heaven will is dao. And dao is law.
To be honest, it seems that the above does not address the core issue that you and I are discussing. To me, that is completely insufficient to persuade me to change my perspective on this article.
 
SweetDao said:
It seems more like he's empowered by Humans tbf.
Click to expand...
I think no because QingCheng said that zhuo fan privy to the fate of all people
SweetDao said:
Also, are you saying that The Dao is dependent over humanity existing?
Click to expand...
No,the Dao itself is not dependent on humanity. But Zhuo Fan's power over the Humanity Path a conceptual aspect of the Dao is dependent on the presence of human minds or hearts
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
Yeah, they can perceive the laws of the world.


Anyway, OP has said that heaven will is dao. And dao is law.
To be honest, it seems that the above does not address the core issue that you and I are discussing. To me, that is completely insufficient to persuade me to change my perspective on this article.
Click to expand...
I didn't see that he had stated that it was a law, because from what I read, it is not a law but something more powerful and superior that controls laws.
 
SweetDao said:
What?

I don't know, I don't read it like this tbf.
Click to expand...
Yet this passage is quite clear: "There are no sentient beings, which means there are no human hearts. I cannot set foot in a place without human hearts."

This clearly shows that he can only go to places where the human heart exists, otherwise his Dao of humanity prevents him from accessing them.
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
Yet this passage is quite clear: "There are no sentient beings, which means there are no human hearts. I cannot set foot in a place without human hearts."

This clearly shows that he can only go to places where the human heart exists, otherwise his Dao of humanity prevents him from accessing them.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, but that's not a proof of CM, if anything, it's a weakness?
 
Robo432343 said:
is the dao being the foundation of existence not enough for cm
Click to expand...
Concepts are in themselves applications of reality and are linked to an “object.”

With what I put in another answer above, we have proof of the existence of reality, which is therefore present in existence, and the Dao is the very foundation of existence, which makes it the very foundation of reality. We can say that the Dao is linked to its “object,” which is reality, through existence.
 
Robo432343 said:
is the dao being the foundation of existence not enough for cm
Click to expand...
dao in most cultivation novels, or generally just mean laws, of course you can stretch this into CM, but you need some good supporting evidences for that
 
Le_démon_Araii said:
I didn't see that he had stated that it was a law, because from what I read, it is not a law but something more powerful and superior that controls laws.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

CM for Zhuo Fan Third time lol

Lol this is the third time that i propose cm for zhuo fan. After long discuss with @Le_démon_Araii we decide to create this thread So let's start “Dao is the foundation of everything in existence, discarded like a rag the minute the demonic path arrived... The world is tainted, no longer...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Once again, it's really surprising. You didn't even read the post.
 
Well, for now, I'll just disagree with it. I don't want to clog the thread either. Maybe a staff member will come to explain how it is CM (or maybe I'll see some new scans) bot for now, yeah, no.
 
SweetDao said:
Well, yeah, but that's not a proof of CM, if anything, it's a weakness?
Click to expand...
I see it differently: he cannot access places where his object, i.e. the human heart, is absent. It's a bit like certain characters who embody a concept and cannot exist in a place where the concept itself does not exist.
 
the only good evidence that can at least support cm is the foundation statement but aside from that its just nothing burger
 
Absolutely_111~ said:
vsbattles.com

CM for Zhuo Fan Third time lol

Lol this is the third time that i propose cm for zhuo fan. After long discuss with @Le_démon_Araii we decide to create this thread So let's start “Dao is the foundation of everything in existence, discarded like a rag the minute the demonic path arrived... The world is tainted, no longer...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Once again, it's really surprising. You didn't even read the post.
Click to expand...
My automatic translator had mistranslated it.
 
SweetDao said:
Well, for now, I'll just disagree with it. I don't want to clog the thread either. Maybe a staff member will come to explain how it is CM (or maybe I'll see some new scans) bot for now, yeah, no.
Click to expand...
I think I will also do it the same way as you. That's right, it definitely needs staff for this post.
 
How can the foundation of existence be discarded? That doesn't make any sense. I feel that it's being metaphorical, because it suggests that the world simply no longer cares about the Dao. Then it says Heaven's Will is Dao, and any power is nothing before it, but in that case, how was the Dao discarded? Then it's stated both demonic and righteous cultivators must return to the Dao, which makes even less sense, because it says the demonic path discarded the Dao. There are too many contradictions here.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
How can the foundation of existence be discarded? That doesn't make any sense. I feel that it's being metaphorical, because it suggests that the world simply no longer cares about the Dao. Then it says Heaven's Will is Dao, and any power is nothing before it, but in that case, how was the Dao discarded? Then it's stated both demonic and righteous cultivators must return to the Dao, which makes even less sense, because it says the demonic path discarded the Dao. There are too many contradictions here.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, 🥶
 
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