Cid Kagenou 2-C Upgrade!

[TheHyperGuy]

I am saying that there is no need for the universes to dragged into collision, it is never mentioned as a pre-requisite, just 1 way it can happen and within the same volume it's proved to not be needed with the black hole... there is no requirement for the universe collision and THUS why assuming:

Tbh, I didn't even think of this, who's to say the black rose didn't just connect to his world? His world is overrun by monsters. It could've easily been just connected to his Past universe the entire time.

Also, collision is a pre-requisite if we take the above statement I said as truth. Since In order to create a connection, two universes must collide, in order for that to happen, they must physically move.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Tbh, I didn't even think of this, who's to say the black rose didn't just connect to his world? His world is overrun by monsters. It could've easily been just connected to his Past universe the entire time.

The monsters on his world are of a specific nature that don't really fit Ragnarok and it's whole thing as the king of hell or wtvr.

In order to create a connection, two universes must collide

This is never said in any scan AFAIK unfortunately. "A connection is created when two universes collide" is closer to what is said in the novel and is not the same at all in the ways that matter. Feel free to link it though.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The monsters on his world are of a specific nature that don't really fit Ragnarok and it's whole thing as the king of hell or wtvr.

It was the ruler of the "fourth realm" there's nowhere to really confirm if that means the place where earth is or not. Also, there were beasts both on the otherworld and Earth, so that seems to stand true. So I still don't see why the black rose wasn't connected to earth the entire time.

This is never said in any scan AFAIK unfortunately. "A connection is created when two universes collide" is closer to what is said in the novel and is not the same at all in the ways that matter. Feel free to link it though.

“Until, bang.” His finger circles overlap.
“Every so often, the worlds collide. The impact sends rifts across the worlds, and for a moment, two different worlds become linked. When that happens, each exerts influence on the other.”
“They become linked and influence each other…,” Beta says, parroting his words to better chew them over.

"... the worlds collide... and for a moment, two different worlds become linked."

I did send it, the last part of Mordred is cut off, but Beta just restates the last part anyway.

So the linking happens when they collide.

 

[PhantomØ4]

"... the worlds collide... and for a moment, two different worlds become linked."

I did send it, the last part of Mordred is cut off, but Beta just restates the last part anyway.

So the linking happens when they collide.

Yeah... that is "A connection is created when two universes collide" not "In order to create a connection, two universes must collide"... those very different things in the ways that matter here.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Yeah... that is "A connection is created when two universes collide" not "In order to create a connection, two universes must collide"... those very different things in the ways that matter here.

So is there another way a connection is made? And if you bring up the black hole, I already said it could've always been linked to Earth. So the "black hole" is just the black rose opening in response to high density magic. Which would negate a claim I made prior to it being something different.

Cause so far, no other forms of connections have been shown.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Two spacetimes being able to collide or interact naturally debunks any multiversal tiering in general

 

[1smrizvi]

Interesting. Someone brought the initiative to upscale cid. Lets see where this goes.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Two spacetimes being able to collide or interact naturally debunks any multiversal tiering in general

That doesn't seem, mutually exclusive. Why?

 

[Nexus_Ratiocination]

I agree on {iam atomic} range being low-2C
i agree on cid durability via magic buffs to scale to his attack {iam atomic}
i agree on the seperate 2 universes
neutral on {iam atomic} scaling to low-2C on AP (for now)

ill be following this thread

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

That doesn't seem, mutually exclusive. Why?

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...

vsbattles.fandom.com

They have to remain completely separated or else they're not tierably 4-D.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

They have to remain completely separated or else they're not tierably 4-D.

But they are

They just happened to bump into each other causing them to connect. But its a rare occurrence and they dont stay connected.

My First point was to prove that they were separate space-times

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

But they are

They just happened to bump into each other causing them to connect. But its a rare occurrence and they dont stay connected.

My First point was to prove that they were separate space-times

The point is it cannot naturally occur even rarely or temporarily. It has to be done by force.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The point is it cannot naturally occur even rarely or temporarily. It has to be done by force.

So you point out that they cannot connect via 3 dimensional means, but when the "connected" a portal is opened. A gate. It'd be different if you go to the edge of the universe in one realm, snd then just move over to the other universe when the connect. That's not what is happening.

Two universes collide, connect, and a portal is opened up, creating a connection between the two universes.

So the criteria for denying theyre separation is invalidated as you cannot just go to the edge of space to cross over into said other universe. Thats why the portal appears in the sky of the otherworld, even if that sky isnt the edge of the universe where the collision would most likely occur.

And it states;

It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space.
...
The most typical example is the presence of a higher dimensional space serving as a separator. In other words, two separate universes coexist in a four dimensional or even higher dimensional space, occupying different position along some additional dimensional axis. Therefore, in order to travel between such universes, the movement must be through the higher dimensional space between them. To summarize, two realms are separated through a higher dimension space if

1. A larger space encompasses all the universes or space-times

Which is how the two universes connect to begin with. They arent physically blending together in 3 dimensional space.

Plus a higher space is implied due to them being called universes and orbiting a center, which requires a larger space for said universe to move in.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

So you point out that they cannot connect via 3 dimensional means, but when the "connected" a portal is opened. A gate. It'd be different if you go to the edge of the universe in one realm, snd then just move over to the other universe when the connect. That's not what is happening.

Two universes collide, connect, and a portal is opened up, creating a connection between the two universes.

So the criteria for denying theyre separation is invalidated as you cannot just go to the edge of space to cross over into said other universe. Thats why the portal appears in the sky of the otherworld, even if that sky isnt the edge of the universe where the collision would most likely occur.

And it states;

Which is how the two universes connect to begin with. They arent physically blending together in 3 dimensional space.

Plus a higher space is implied due to them being called universes and orbiting a center, which requires a larger space for said universe to move in.

The fact they're colliding is the issue. It doesn't matter if a portal is opened up as a result because that isnt the only thing happening. It's like how two parallel lines on a plane/graph cannot intersect.

 

[KaramcaS]

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The fact they're colliding is the issue. It doesn't matter if a portal is opened up as a result because that isnt the only thing happening. It's like how two parallel lines on a plane/graph cannot intersect.

In the entirety of the Universal page you sourced, colliding doesn't negate them being separated. In fact the very concept of collision requires two things to be separate in order to collide. You cannot collide the tip of a pencil and the eraser, unless you break it ofc.

Two cars colliding means two separate cars ran into each other. Ball and bat. Football player to football player. Collision requires the idea of separation already.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

In the entirety of the Universal page you sourced, colliding doesn't negate them being separated. In fact the very concept of collision requires two things to be separate in order to collide. You cannot collide the tip of a pencil and the eraser, unless you break it ofc.

Two cars colliding means two separate cars ran into each other. Ball and bat. Football player to football player. Collision requires the idea of separation already.

Two objects that are different dimensions, but can naturally interact and collide with each other can be contradictory. The reason being is that there is a requirement outlined that the space that contains and separates (the area between them) is a 5th dimensional axis. It would work similarly to how in a 2D graph 2 parallel lines can’t interact even though they extend infinitely because a 2D axis has a dimension that the lines don’t operate in, hence why they can never intersect.

While I’m looking at this, I think that it is a bit weird the universes can naturally interact, but the fact that they’re called universes qualifies them for space-times despite the natural collision being contradictory. If the interaction was done via someone’s power there’s be no issue, but it seems to be that this is how it naturally operates, so I don’t really know how to treat it, but it is indeed an anti feat for two space times to naturally interact for that reason.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Two objects that are different dimensions, but can naturally interact and collide with each other can be contradictory. The reason being is that there is a requirement outlined that the space that contains and separates (the area between them) is a 5th dimensional axis. It would work similarly to how in a 2D graph 2 parallel lines can’t interact even though they extend infinitely because a 2D axis has a dimension that the lines don’t operate in, hence why they can never intersect.

While I’m looking at this, I think that it is a bit weird the universes can naturally interact, but the fact that they’re called universes qualifies them for space-times despite the natural collision being contradictory. If the interaction was done via someone’s power there’s be no issue, but it seems to be that this is how it naturally operates, so I don’t really know how to treat it, but it is indeed an anti feat for two space times to naturally interact for that reason.

I think for the rules of the verse, them orbiting a singular point, and by extension of that rule, they could accidently, and rarely, bump into each other during this orbit. Now the likelihood has to be astronomically low if they are orbiting such a point in a large bulk space, but a chance still exists nonetheless.

Now I cant confirm, since Ive yet to see it confirmed, but perhaps this so called "god" in the center, is causing them to orbit? But again, can't confirm so it's just theoretical.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Two spacetimes being able to collide or interact naturally debunks any multiversal tiering in general as far as I remember, also this seems to be tier 3 only in hax/range not actual AP. Disagree

 

[TheHyperGuy]

So I'm just going to drop in a conclusion from me, since I doubt his will be accepted at this rate.

Why would the Black Rose be Forcing Two Universal Time-Space?​

Simply put the stages of opening a connection between realms is;

1. Universes orbit around a point physically moving around
2. They very rarely bump or "collide" into each other
3. This collision causes a connection between them

So in order for a connection to occur, the realms must collide/touch, and in order for them to do so they must physically move towards each other.

Since the prior times the Black Rose appeared, it was done by accident, the realms just touched each other when moving around. This time was heavily implied that it was done on purpose. The key was used in order to create a link between two worlds, which differs from the phenomenon happing accidently, and turning it into a planned forceful opening of the black rose.

So since a connection was made, there are only 1 known way this can occur, by two universes physically moving towards each other in order to make a connection which is the Black Rose. In order for any of that to happen, there must be movement of two universes to touch, and since this time wasn't on accident, and the Cult has some control over it, like when to open it, it's safe to say this instance of the Black Rose opening was done forcefully. And in order for the Black Rose to open, there must be a connection to another universe, and there must be a collision between them, which means that it requires both of them to move towards each other, even by the smallest amount.

Why wouldn't It be just Hijacking the Timing or just Opening the Gate?​

Because if that was just what needed to happen, then they wouldn't need to do anything. Because like they established, Movement -> Collision -> Connection. If the connection is the only thing that needs to occur, then it would've already happened since the connection is done when two universes collide. It's implied to be the result of the universes colliding so there's no need to force it open if it's going to happen anyway.

It's like forcing the doors of a elevator open, when they are going to open anyway when the elevator reaches a floor. If it was going to happen anyway as a natural occurrence, then the whole "ring is the key" thing, that's meant to "open the door" is just thrown out of the entire plot, because the black rose would've occurred no matter what. But it didn't occur naturally. The cult said they implied they had some control, but not enough to directly link to any universe obviously because these universes are not close enough to collide, and the ring was mean to open the Black Rose, imply the opening of the Black Rose was done via the "key" which was the ring emitting a signal to do so.

So if it was just simply trying to "open the door" and that's it, you cut out the entire first two steps, Movement -> Collision -> Connection, that is required in order to connect them to begin with.

Opposition​

The biggest refutations to why this can't be the case, is just denying what Mordred said. If we take what Mordred said as truth since he is the authority figure of knowledge on this topic without even questioning his knowledge but only questioning his explanation, that just doesn't sit well with me. That sounds like picking and choosing which points we should take seriously, and why is that the case?

If Mordred isn't being "literal" when talking about the universes colliding, then is he also not being "literal" when he says the universes orbit a singular point? Or that they exist as full realms, and not just planets? Why are we playing semantics trying to deny his explanation instead of arguing his knowledge about it?

So if we take Mordred's word as truth here, multiple universes do exist, and they orbit a point, and every once in a blue moon they collide causing a link between them.

Simply stating that there should be damage to the universes is assuming such a situation would occur in the verse, which if we take what Mordred said as truth, then it wouldn't because we see it not happen. And if you really want to bring assumptions to the situations for what should occur, I'll bring an assumption to defend it with a possibility, the Black Rose is a buffer between the realms making them unable to fully lean into each other. Treat it like a double sided tape that stops two things from truly "connecting".

This would still allow the Black Rose, if it is doing this by force, to scale to dragging two universes closer together, and creating a link to both as "significantly affecting two universal space time".

Conclusion:​

• If the Black Rose usually appears by accident, and this time it's different since they are using a "key" to "open the door" it's safe to conclude that this instance was done by force, instead of letting the Black Rose open naturally.
• If the key is merely opening a connection and nothing else, then the Black Rose would've appeared with or without the use of the key, since if the key is only to "connect" it skip the first two steps of: Movement -> Collision -> Connection.
• If we decide to pick and choose what parts of Mordred's explanation we can take as literal, then why are we even taking anything he says literally? If the universes exist, move/orbit and even the fact that each realm is different and not about other planets or outer space, then why is them colliding literally such a big issue to take as literal?
• If the universes not damaging each other is the main reason you are denying that they can collide, then what is the issue with the Black Rose buffering the two universes so they don't engulf one another? Something like Brane Collision Theory exists without the destruction of two universes.
• Also, them colliding proves they are separate, besides the fact that they are all universes/realm, which isn't referring to outer space or other planets. So it's already pretty proven that they are separate space-times, and considering colliding isn't actually a debunk to a multiverse, since the collision always results in a gate/portal.

So if this doesn't convince anyone, then I guess we can just close the thread after this. (It was worth a shot)

 

[Nexus_Ratiocination]

weird this thread is just forgotten from what i see.

free cookies

 

[TheHyperGuy]

weird this thread is just forgotten from what i see.

free cookies

I feel like Admins just don't want to look at my threads

 

[Nexus_Ratiocination]

I feel like Admins just don't want to look at my threads

its okay
take a cookie
and smile

 

[LenLep]

Cid Kagenou, my Lord Shadow, is quite possibly Low-Multiversal. I can't believe no one has even tried to make this argument before, but I'm willing to put it forward.

It start's with the Black Rose

Where Does the Black Rose Scale?​

The black rose is an interdimensional gate between two universes/realms that are separated both spatially and Temporally. Considering the fact that we have Minoru's home planet showcasing a drastically slower flow of time, only 2 years passing on earth while 15 years passed in this new world.

Now the difference in time flow wouldn't matter too much without the evidence prior that the worlds are concluded as Different realms, and it was stated this isn't talking about outer space or other planets, so clearly these are disconnected universes as the manga states. Every once in a while, these realms "collide" with each other by pure coincident. However, there is a key, the ring, which is stated to "open the door" implying the black rose.

This is different than the black rose "accidently" appearing due to universes just colliding at random, but this meant that the Cult was able to force the black rose to open. Since the Ring opened the black rose, therefore doing this by force. This should mean that what was done by "accident" in the past, is now able to be done purposefully with the key. Why does this matter?

Considering the black rose can "force" 2 separate universes to "collide" and therefore connect them, it should scale the Black Rose to 2-C, via "significantly affecting" two space-times.

This might be semantical from the look of things, but Mordred makes it clear, that these collisions are uncommon and random when the realms move around a specific center and slam into each other. And considering the Cult has researched this they would be the authority figures on this. Even noting that other realms exist and Demons and beast do come out of them. So I don't really expect myself needing to defend why Mordred would be quite knowledgeable on this topic.

How Does Cid Scale to This?​

Simple, he was blatantly stated to destroy the black rose with his "mighty attack". The black rose should easily be proven to be shattered thanks to the key being shattered as a result of the Black Rose shattering, signifying more of the connection between them.

Wouldn't this Upscale the Verse too Much?​

No, because there's only 1 character that scale to this because they are the only one able to produce power like "I AM ATOMIC." And that's shadow. Iris even makes it clear that power is nothing any human could manage. And it's implied that no one else could even replicate that attack, other than possibly Aurora who has tried to cast it, but failed. And considering she had the ability to destroy the world, which would probably just refer to the planet, and not the actual universe, her power is supported. Even if Aurora can't Destroy the Planet, Cid probably could if his "rising atomic" was aimed at it, instead of away, and It would still add some validity to only Shadow scaling to this feat.

But then what about those that damage Cid? Well, we all know that Cid can boost his defenses; here, here, here and here. And with the Iris statements, it's clear no one known has the power to rival Cid Kagenou, and no one else in the verse has even came close to the same feat's, it's safe to say, when Cid isn't channeling his power through his body, his durability wouldn't equal his atomic, as he always covers his body in magic to protect himself. So his durability should also scale to his atomic in use when he channels magic to defend himself, and without magic to defend himself, he should stay with his regular durability.

So it should look like this (changes in purple);​

Spoiler: Upgrade

Attack Potency: At least Wall Level without magic (He optimized his body to be as efficient in combat as possible, should upscale Claire who could break her own bones while her magic was sealed, is stronger than Alexia who could tank a hit that pulverized a table and sent her flying to a wall), Large Mountain Level with magic (Cleared the rain with his magic), Large Mountain Level+ when applying magic on his attacks (he is able to apply the same level of magic in a "point" than a "surface" allowing himself to increase the piercing power of the attack, for instance, Beta, by applying this technique, was able to one shot someone who prior was completely undamaged by her attacks), Multi-Continent level with I AM ATOMIC (His strongest attack, Cid charges up way more magic than his usual attacks increasing the output drastically, it was shown to reach this level of energy, Cid when he was just a kid performed this feat with Rising Atomic), Low Multiversal level with I AM ATOMIC (In his fight between Ragnarök and Mordred, he shattered the black rose. A gate which forces two universes to collide and connect with each other. These universes are spatially and temporally separated.)
...
Durability: At least Wall Level without magic (He optimized his body to be as efficient in combat as possible), Large Mountain level+ when applying magic to his defense (Can apply the same technique he uses to increase the piercing power of his attacks for defense), possible Low Multiversal level when applying magic to his defense (equal to his power in destroying the black rose.)

This might upgrade Cid Kagenou quite high, but I feel my reasoning and evidence is sound enough to at least make the argument. We already have his atomic reaching deep into outer space in his local solar system, as a kid too, which theoretically if that'd hit any planets, it'd suck.

Agree:

Neutral:

Disagree:

I've been looking at the comments and people are misunderstanding 2 things from what I see. One is that destroying isn't the only way to get to 2-C. Affecting also works and from what I know I'm pretty sure being able to make 2 universes collide is affecting them. And 2 the black rose isn't just a gate. It's litteraly stated to be a phenomenon, that phenomenon being the 2 universes colliding. Then from that collision called the black rose, the gate follows. The gate is basically the result of the collision.

I could be wrong since I'm not great at scaling since I'm relatively new and not the best at it but how I see it is that the gate "black rose" is a result of the collision phenomenon called black rose. It doesn't just link it, the black rose itself is the collision. The rare cosmological event of 2 universes colliding IS CALLED the black rose. And deriving from that event is the gate that opens up because they become connected.
The key being able to force an opening of the gate would mean that the gate "black rose" is 100% connected and related to the phenomenon black rose. Since the gate is formed from 2 universes colliding. Which would mean destroying the gate would affect the phenomenon.

Once again I might be wrong, I'm definitely not the best at scaling, this message isn't really meant for the OP but more so for everyone replying.