Chrono Trigger: Base Lavos upgrades

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Hello and good day to you! Before we begin, I would greatly appreciate it if you took a glance at this blog, for it provides context that you may find useful. Now then, on with the show! Note: All necessary citations are in the blog, but I'll be putting them here, too, whenever I get the time.

Let's start with minor, easy stuff. Gravity Manipulation, Magic Draining, and Molecular Manipulation. Also, sealing via being the source of magic for the Enlightened Ones.

First major point: Lavos has all the DNA of every living being i Chrono Trigger. This is supported by the fact that, in the first phase of the battle against Lavos, it uses abilities of previous bosses (including Magus and a robot). This means Lavos should have access to such abilities as mind hax, illusion creation, magic/energy draining, Transmutation, and blood manipulation. There may be things I missed, so input is welcome here, too.

Second major point: Lavos is the source of Dreamstone, which composes the Mammo Machine, the Black Omen, the Masamune, and the Frozen Flame. Dreamstone created dreams and the concepts of love and hatred. Furthermore, anything those four can do, Lavos can do as well, so that includes Fate Manipulation (via the Black Ome ), Energy Absorption/Redirection/Adaptation (via the Mammo Machine ), Reality Warping on an at least planetary scale (via the Frozen Flame ), and possibly some degree of Conceptual Manipulation (via Dreamstone itself). Lavos can aslo resist all of these things because it can survive blows from a fully powered Masamune, which is made of Dreamstone.

Everything necessary is in the blog, but I'll try to put the links here, too, over time.

EDIT: Minor stuff acceptable.

First point accepted with the caveat of using the abilities of only the entities Lavos has imitated in battle.

Second point under discussion. Conceptual, fate manipulation out of realm of possibility. Empathic, reality manipulation under discussion, but spatial manipulation may be accepted in lieu of reality manipulation.

Tally so far: Gravity Manipulation, Molecular Manipulation, Magic, Transmutation, Mana Draining, Illusion Creation, Blood Manipulation, Sealing, Energy Absorption and Redirection.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Furthermore, anything those four can do, Lavos can do as well"

Based on what, exactly?

Also, those links don't tell me that the Dreamstone created the concepts of love and hate, just that it created them, which is just Empathic Manipulation.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

In the blog, I have a series of screenshots of Enlightened Ones talking about how the Mammon Machine is powered by and (more importantly) is a conduit of Lavos's energy. Furthermore, the Enlightened Ones have their magical powers because of Lavos. Besides, surely the Dreamstone being made of Lavos itself is substantial, no?

Hmm, I was thinking that because these traits are found in beings other than humans, but perhaps I jumped the proverbial gun there. I thought the dreams thing supported the claim, too, but that could could fall under empathic manipulation, too, right? I'll drop that point unless others think it substantial or I come across more evidence.

Did everything else look ok?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Granting things powers/powering things doesn't give you the ability to use everything they can use. It's the reason we don't give every creator god all the powers of every character in the verse.

The thing is that creating something is different from creating the concept of something. The first human to make fire didn't create the concept of fire (Probably a bad example, but it's the best I got ATM).

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Relating to the DNA or the magic stuff? I guess I should link the other magic stuff here. I think the DNA point I made is fine.

Okey doke. The flowery language in some of the text threw me off there. Oops!

EDIT: To be more specific, is it the first or second major point you object to, Ever?

EDIT 2: Edit ninja'd.

 

[The_Everlasting]

The magic stuff. As for the DNA... maybe, but I'm not sure.

Happens to all of us.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Here is a link to the first phase of the fight,the phase in which Lavos most notably uses the abilities of other bosses.

I think the matter of magic is like as I have hazarded because Lavos bestowed magic upon the Enlightened Ones and because Dreamstone itself is made from Lavos. Here is a screenshot that suggests acquiring magical talents was impossible before Lavos's say-so. Context: Ayla, the woman whom that magical fiend addresses, is the only member of the party born before the foundation of the Kingdom of Zeal, and thus she cannot acquire magical abilities.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Evidence that the dreamstone literally created concepts of love and hate?

It clearly doesn't, it just is capable of provoking those emotions due to its immense power, this is basic reading comprehension.

I disagree with using Radical Dreamers, that is simply flat out wrong. You cannot use it to regular Chrono Trigger as they are not direct continuitieis.

Fate Manipulation via the Black Omen? Flat out what. No, the Black Omen doesn't manipulate fate. Can't you understand basic flowery dialogue for what it really is? And applying it and the Mammon Machine to Lavos simply because you think that Lavos bestowed magic to humans when there's no evidence? Specially when you have a God of Magic in the realm outside of time? That's absolutely ridiculous. It'd be like suggesting that an Energy Manipulator could use all the applications of energy.

I disagree with everything that comes after the first two paragraphs. This is flat out deceiving wank.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I also disagree with the DNA stuff. Just because Lavos is the origin of all life on Earth doesn't mean he can do everything any lifeform on Earth can do.

Or else he wouldn't be defeated by humans.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Matthew seems to make sense.

 

[Machspyder]

I agree with most of what Matthew pointed out earlier.

For the DNA part, it should be limited to the things/abilities it has shown. Which is limited to the bosses IIRC (being a long time since I played the game). This is a similar case to the Digimon Apocalymon who is said to possess the information, evolutionary lines,special attacks and such of all digimon but we limit it to the moves he has shown to be able to do (else he would have every attack and move in Digimon)

There's nothing about fate manipulation or concept creation based on those screens. Additionally, any such interpretation would be highly vague. The Mammon machine scans don't load. Not sure how the Frozen Flame stuff applies to Lavos.

It should be also pointed out that being able to resist attacks from a weapon made from a particular material=/=resisting any and all applications of that material, some of which are hax.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Oh, dear, I didn't think people would find this upsetting, especially since I put out an open invite to read and judge my blog to see if my logic held up under scrutiny before making a thread. I thought it would be fine since people who have a record of being knowledgeable on the verse said it was, but here I am being accused of deception and incompetence by a staff member, no less. I apologize if I have unwittingly broken some taboo to earn such an incensed reception from Mr. Schroeder, but we might as well finish discussing the matter regardless. Let's settle the matter of the first point before bothering with the second. That way, things should resolve in some way less messily.

Relating to the DNA point, surely those screenshots connote Lavos having the abilities of others as well? I am not arguing this only because it was simply stated to have all the DNA in question; that alone does not imply the ability to apply it. Various members of the party directly state that it has the powers of every living being on earth and it stole the progress of various biological races that became more powerful over time; in fact, an entire section of the fight was centered around Lavos being able to use the abilities of other entitites in the verse, including Magus a party member.

It seems the logic of the opposition is rooted in the incredulity fallacy, what with Matthew maintaining the fact that the party defeated Lavos as a valid reason to disregard the evidence. This is very fair, though, as I myself think the whole matter of the party winning verges dangerously close to the realm of plot-induced stupidity. The strongest evidence in support of their victory is the fact that almost all the endgame equipment is made of Dreamstone, but I am open to discussing this matter if you all think it would help.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree that Matthew should probably use a more polite tone.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, forgive me if I came off as angry and too harsh, but that does not reduce the value of my actual arguments.

I still consider your proposed upgrades for Lavos to be unnaceptable, and my views won't change, sorry.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with Matt on the part about fate and concepts, but disagree with him on the DNA, Radical Dreamers, and magic stuff.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just because Lavos is the energy source of the Dreamstone, doesn't mean he can Reality Warp. He can't do that in Chrono Trigger.

As for magic, I'm not certain he is the source of all magic, but it is possible.

DNA is also vague, and I would rather use the abilities he shows.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's the Frozen Flame that's used as Reality Warping, which is a literal piece of Lavos that he uses heavily in Chrono Cross

He is the source of all magic. At the very least, it's heavily implied. The reason Ayla doesn't use magic is because she was born before Lavos went all Descending Star on prehistory.

It's explicitly stated, though I could agree witb using the abilities shown. Thankfully, he canonically uses the powers of Magus and Zombor, which are the transmutation and blood manipulation listed above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How do you explain Spekkio if he is the source of magic?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Spekkio is a god of combat, not a god of magic. He unlocks the party's magic and knows a lot about it due to him existing when magic was everywhere.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Relating to DNA, I purposely listed examples of abilities used by the exact entities Lavos imitated in the OP, so that list should still be fine. That was meant as an addendum to the page if nothing else. Having heard the opinions of others, I'll not bother expanding the list unnecessarily (that is, beyond what we see Lavos imitate).

So, I guess we're discussing the second point now. First, let me voice what I've changed my mind on: concept manipulation is not wholly preposterous, but since the screenshots I provided could just as well connote very good empathic manipulation, it would be best to stick with that, especially since it raises fewer questions and is consistent with the snippet about the Masamune containing "mental energy." I guess it would be best to disregard that bit about fate manipulation as well, but I'm really rather baffled as to the meaning of that scene before fighting Queen Zeal in the Black Omen.

Anyway, still sticking to scaling from Dreamstone stuff. I haven't yet been convinced that Lavos shouldn't get the handful of abilities that those things exclusively show, especially since Lavos seems to be the source of magic in Chrono Trigger. The only problem I can think of for the latter claim is that Azala and some of the Reptites could use magic before Lavos crashed, but keep in mind that Azala said she had been contacted by the Red Star before it landed on earth and that Ayla said she found some Dreamstone shortly before the Reptites started becoming a threat with their newfound magical talents. This suggests even the magic of the Reptites was the doing of Lavos.

Oh, and have a screenshot of Lavos causing "dimensional instability" before popping up, likely reality warping in itself. As far as the Frozen Flame is concerned, here's one screenshot of Lavos covering the vicinty in "dark energy" before making its entrance and one of the Frozen Flame possessing "dark energy." Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again,there is no conceptual manipulation nor fate manipulation at play here, you are making leaps in logic from statements that do not indicate power.

The Dreamstone "gave birth to love and hatred" because its energies allowed for the construction of the Mammon Machine, and subsequently the Ocean Palace, making the Zeal Kingdom thrive and expand...

Expect that the statement isn't even about the Dreamstone. You are purposefuly cutting context, it is talking about the Frozen Flame.

 "It all began aeons ago, when man's ancestors picked up a shard of a strange red rock... Its power, which was beyond human comprehension, cultivated dreams... In turn, love and hate were born... Only time will see how it all ends."

Emphasis on "shard". It is part of Chrono's lore that men first made contact with the Frozen Flame in 3,000,000 B.C, thus initiating Lavos' process of pushing their evolution, rapidly evolving their brains. This is why it "cultivated dreams" and "gave birth to love and hate".

As for Queen Zeal, what she was doing was a psychological warfare. She talks about how the holograms / clones in her room are the characters' "futures", and that it is their destiny to be defeated by her.

Dimensional Stability would just means he can affect space in a Spatial Manipulation like-way.

Vague dark energy statements don't mean that they are the same thing.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

But I clearly said that I changed my mind about those things. I know you're busy, but please take a little more time to read what I say before passing judgement on me.

I had thought that it referred to Dreamstone because the Frozen Flame was not yet introduced into canon and because we already have statements of Dreamstone possessing similar properties. Also, you've decided to accept information from Radical Dreamers for insight on info from Chrono Trigger, I see, so it's good we're on the same page there. This case for the text referring to the Frozen Flame could hold merit, but it doesn't really change anything, though.

I don't know for sure if that is the case, but I can buy that. Seems reasonable enough to me.

The significance of those last two things will probably be left to interpretation, so let's settle that a little later.

Before we continue, I would like to request that you refrain from speaking against my character, Mr. Schroeder. In this thread alone, you have insinuated that I am deceitful, incompetent, and guilty of withholding information, but I have been forthcoming in my thoughts, have been careful to ask the opinions of others before making a revision thread, and have provided the very information that you are quoting in the hopes of making me seem disingenuous. I've even brought up and discussed information that does not help my case. Furthermore, numerous notable users, including multiple staff members, have spoken favorably of my work on this matter, so you speak badly of them as well. I am here to neither recklessly exaggerate nor be defamed (by a staff member of all people!) but to share interesting information and hear the civil thoughts of others, so let's keep things that way, please.

EDIT: Oh, did we come to an agreement on the DNA point, by the way?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would prefer if you just called me Matt or Matthew, no need for forced formalities, thank you.

I never said that you are deceitful and incompetent as a person, I just criticized your arguments, which I consider to be very poor. And I have already apologized for my statements. Criticizing my tone does not advance the discussing of ideas here.

But if my last post offended you, once again, sorry. Won't do so again.

As for the rest of your paragraph...

How do I speak badly of people who agreed with you when I criticize you? These people could simply be misinformed / not very knowledgeble on the Verse and then simply find your arguments convincing. Happens with everyone.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Ok. Sorry bout that.

I understand. It's just that tone can be easily lost through the medium of text, and it looked as if you were saying I was trying to trick others. I hope I didn't come off as beligerent either, and I apologize for any hurt feelings. I was just afraid that bad blood was brewing.

I asked people who have shown themselves to be knowledgeable of the verse to see, you see.

I got an idea; let me edit the OP to reflect the course of the discussion better. Only take a few minutes.

EDIT: How's that, Matt? It looks as if we've come to an agreement on most everything except some of the lore and maybe a small handful of abilities. Which things do you you think we are lacking in information for?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think that we can give Spatial Manipulation to Lavos rather than Reality Warping. He was causing a "dimensional quake", which implies that he is affecting space.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Very well; that may coincide nicely with Robo's statement of molecular manipulation, too. What do you think of the other two things in the "second point" part of the edit?

Since the nature of the Frozen Flame and, by extention, Dreamstone is still unclear, it may be best to wait until I have provided screenshots from Chrono Cross to discuss that matter further. I have played Chrono Cross and do not remember any contradictions, but I now see that there is not quite enough evidence to make some of my claims concrete. What say ye?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Energy Absorption/Redirection/Adaptation scans don't show on my computer.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Uh oh, I must've bungled the links. Hold on a sec and I'll fix 'em. It wasn't too much, just reacting to attacks by growing more resistant to them and retaliating by redirecting the energy.

In the meantime, I put a tally up for clarity's sake. Is that list correct?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can't Lavos Absorb / Reflect attacks anyway in his Boss Fight?

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Both links are now fixed! But the problem is whether or not Lavos gets the abilities itself.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Can't Lavos Absorb / Reflect attacks anyway in his Boss Fight?

I don't recall but I think he could just counterattack a la Kefka's final boss fight. I thought it would be wiser to have screenshots of the Mammon Machine since it explicitly said it absorbed energy, but I might have neglected something in the Lavos battle itself.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just checked Lavos' attacks in a wiki. He can indeed absorb attacks.

Zombor: the top partially absorbs lightning while the bottom partially absorbs shadow. It casts MP Buster on defeat.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Very well, then. Most of Lavos's forms can absorb some type of energy, but I thought it'd be best to show something more universally applicable in the form of the Mammon Machine. The matter of the Mammon Machine would be best waiting until screenshots from Chrono Cross are procured to ascertain how Lavos relates to Dreamstone and such.

Oh, by the way, the main Lavos bosses themselves can cast MP Buster whenever they want; most troublesome! Anything else to discuss?

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Matthew seems to make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

I think that we can apply what was accepted and close this thread, then?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Remind me what was accepted (as quite a few things were rejected and reconsidered) and I'll make the changes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's on the first post.

Gravity Manipulation, Molecular Manipulation, Magic, Transmutation, Mana Draining, Illusion Creation, Blood Manipulation, Sealing, Energy Absorption.

Those have to be added to base Lavos.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've added all but energy absorption, as that was already on his profile.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew That seems fine, yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, then I think this seems concluded.