Chara downgrade

[Newendigo]

I start this discussion to talk about some things that (as I believe) should change about chara for these reasons.

1) absolute chara destroys the time line but not the universe itself, this would be contradictory since underground is trapped by the barrier which can only be destroyed by 7 human souls. It seems illogical to me that a single soul (no matter how strong) can equal 7 to destroy the barrier, the underground, the timeline, the earth, the universe and the game at the same time.

2) The ability of frisk to return in time does not have it naturally. He removed it (without knowing it) from flowey since as frisk is human (with a red soul like the chara) can naturally generate determination, can exceed the of flowey. This means that if chara were to meet at any time with another human (with a soul of determination preferably) that has a determination that exceeds that of chara, this human would take away that same power.

3) Acasuality: An entity that is acausal has no true beginning or end, and is essentially immune to the offensive manipulation of causality and to travel in time. Even if you step back in time and kill an acausal being in the past or prevent you from being born / believed, it will continue to exist in the present and other terms. Often, even if an acausal being is killed in the present, it can still survive appearing from another timeline. Therefore, acausal beings are very difficult to destroy permanently, often requiring the use of high level deformation of reality (Chara can not be stopped in the present since it can reset the time, but at no time was said That already had that ability.Once again FLOWEY, he took it of flowey since.┬┐Why when dying with Asriel does not return in time to be able to save the life of his brother and his?

4) Hypersonic speed ?.You know that it is not the same to dodge a bullet because you knew where it was going to give as it gave you before than you dodge a bullet because you have REAL hypersonic speed. I just want to make it clear.

Well, I think that has been everything, I want you to give me your opinion to know if I am correct in order to change your tier, or I am wrong and to give me the reason why I am (sorry for my English is that I am Hispanic and i'm new in this wiki).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Seriously space up your text... You just posted a whole, confusing wall.

 

[Newendigo]

You need to read everything to understand.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Timelines have been destroyed without affecting the overall game. When Asriel was going to reset Frisk's entire progress, it was noted that "the world was ending" even after he had destroyed the timeline hence, your view is far more contradictory than any other.

Also, there's no evidence the Barrier was affected.

Flowey still couldn't leave the underground despite rewriting the entire plot of the entire game. He only had six souls.

Also, their time travel is limited to their save points. Only chara uses their abilities directly like that.

Actually, Toriel noted she had seen some of the fallen children before but whether they were included in this group, I don't know.

None of this really matters though since by destroying the timelines and being unaffected by it they are still acausal.

Further, Frisk does have the ability naturally. Flowey only gained the ability due to his determination, something all humans possessed.

I doubt anyone can take Chara's control of the timeline away. That's what the Player is for. That's why Chara takes their soul. To gain control.

If it doesn't take their souls it doesn't really matter because everyone would dead.

Frisk always dodges after the object is fired? The only time this doesn't occur is with the Flowey and Asriel boss fights. As well as Undyne.

 

[Newendigo]

Well, to begin with.

1) the "world is over" easily can count as an exaggeration just like the whole battle against Asriel but I think I just realized my mistake.

2) I mention the barrier because it is an important point that literally no one speaks when talking about the power of chara.

3) explain to me how exactly it disassembles my argument, besides that it did not even have access to the souls since asgore did not leave them nor see.

4) that is irrelevant and I might even consider it a plus point of mine (Chara needs to save points to return) and there is no evidence that he had that abilite

5) That is impossible since only the determination souls could use that power, besides if it were true, why flowey did not mention it when explaining its history to us at the end of the genocidal route or at least mentioning fallen humans (If i barely remember).

6) the truth that.You and me literally can prove because nobody knows how it feels to be in a situation like that, without a timeline, I have the theory that simply the same time does not progress being technically paralyzed, but given me Realize that if you listen you can hear the sound of the wind which means that the time is somehow active.

7) You did not say anything about speed so I'm still INVINCIBLEEE !.

 

[Promestein]

Frisk's determination was stronger than Flowey's. When they showed up in the underground, Flowey lost control of the timeline.

 

[Newendigo]

THATS IS WHAT I'M SAYING!

 

[Promestein]

Yes, and? That doesn't change anything. Frisk always had that Determination. They didn't steal the power from Flowey. Flowey lost control because Frisk was stronger.

 

[Newendigo]

WOW the people replying writting son fast?! and this is my first post! XD.

 

[Newendigo]

obviosly frisk aways had determination and much more than that flower.Tell me what exactly dissamble my argument of how frisk/chara can still come back (agan without knowinng it) thanks to flowey or better to say alphys.... BECOUSE I'M LOST.

 

[Newendigo]

I need someone who can debate with me about the speed of chara.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Well, to begin with.

1) the "world is over" easily can count as an exaggeration just like the whole battle against Asriel but I think I just realized my mistake.

How is it an exaggeration? Asriel already destroyed the timeline and we already know someone who has complete control over the timeline can perform a true reset.

2) I mention the barrier because it is an important point that literally no one speaks when talking about the power of chara.

3) explain to me how exactly it disassembles my argument, besides that it did not even have access to the souls since asgore did not leave them nor see.

It disassembles your argument because there have been cases of reality warping that affect structures beyond the barrier because it's just that, a barrier.

That's why he needed Frisk. Whilst Frisk was distracting Asgore he stole the souls. He literally brags about it to us.

"No matter when"

"No matter where"

"I will come time and time again."

NB: Time travel is also an immeasurable feat.

Frisk didn't even make a save point for Chara to return from non-existence.

There's no such thing as determination souls. Only monster souls and human souls. Human souls all have determination.

We have no idea when Flowey was actually born.

Sound effect that acts as Plot induced stupidity, unless you think the air can survive 4D destruction. Also, this doesn't address Flowey destroying the save File consisting of entire timelines (including his own).

7) You did not say anything about speed so I'm still INVINCIBLEEE !.

I was editing the post whilst you were typing. I did address it.

 

[Newendigo]

Okay,it seems like you invalidadet almost of my points but i will not holding back!

1) I see the battle like a whole exaggetion because even the stats of asriel are weird, infinte ATK and infinite DEF but... when you survivie his "black whole" asriel says he only uses a fraction of his power when there's no a fraction of infinite.

2)Eh... is not just a barrier, is a barrier who needs a god to be destroyed but still you defeat my point.

3)Nobody know how chara defeat the death without body or soul so i don't know.

4) if the red soul isn't the determination soul WHAT DOES IT MEAN, even the wiki of undertale says that(well... the wikis not always says the truth).Flowey born probaly after the second or third human died and when asgore refuset to absorb the souls,alphys had the oppotunity to experiment with that.

5)Ah yes, this others times, not only acount with flowey, asriel and undyne, the same happes with asgore("you tell asgore the several times you died at his hands... asgore seems not paying attetion") and the most obviosly sans.Also there's are a few monster who they remeber somethings of your past resets.

 

[Newendigo]

Oh and i missed some of your points,man i am the worst.

I think is possible,Not easy but possible.Also is a hypothetical situation where there's not player/frisk, only absolute chara and other human with a above determination.

If is that the case, frisk can reset before he fall at the mountain,something that we can't DO. I'm not SAYING THAT FRISK IS THE ONLY HUMAN WITH D.T, I AM SAYING THAT FRISK TOOK IT THAT POWER OF FLOWEY.What a happen if flowey never born or better to says what a happen if alphys never experimented with the souls?frisk fall in the undergound and he still had that power?yeah of course.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

1. We use dimensional tiering where degrees of infinity exist. Ariel's true form just wields power higher up in the spectrum.

3. Chara came back due to Frisk's arrival in the underground. "Thank you. Your power awakened me from death...".

4. Oh, you meant traits. My bad. There's a lot of speculation on what the red soul means. I don't think the ball game mentions it at all and even Sans mentioning something along the lines of"you are driven by something called determination" could just be speaking generally.

I digress...it's more prudent to remember Frisk is the first human to fall down in a long time.

Then how did Flowey gain determination?

Alphys extracted them from the human souls of the other fallen children who, as you would recall, all had different coloured souls. Determination allows their souls to persist after death and who has the most determination at a particular time, controls the timeline.

Absolute Chara destroys the game. There is no other humans. A hypothetical scenario like that is impossible to occur.

Frisk can probably reset before the underground. They just had no will or reason to do so. If you fight Asriel without saving the game once, Frisk will instinctively try to save the game, but fail.

A message "but You don't know how" will appear.

It's the Player who teaches Frisk how to save.

I don't really understand why you keep insisting on that one particular point though.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Firstly, I'd like to tell you to chill with the capslock; obnoxious remarks e.g "so I'm still INVINCIBLEEE !." It's quite unbecoming of you.

Secondly, give this blog a read, I'm sure it will answer most of your questions quite thoroughly.

"Hypersonic speed ?.You know that it is not the same to dodge a bullet because you knew where it was going to give as it gave you before than you dodge a bullet because you have REAL hypersonic speed. I just want to make it clear."

Thirdly, I don't really know what your point is here, is it that because you know where the bullet is going to go, intercepting it doesn't mean anything? Or, that you evade the projectile before it's fired to you (like aim-dodging a gun)? If it's the former, I disagree with you. Yeah sure, you know the trajectory of the projectile, but that knowledge alone won't be nearly enough. Because you would still be far too slow to actually intercept it. @Newendigo

 

[Newendigo]

Well mighty you defeat me but i'm still thinking that chara need a downgrade, i going to do more reaserch to dissprove your points in another post. GG.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Well,it's best you read the blog Austrian linked before doing so. The staff do not have infinite time to focus overly much on one verse and it helps if concerns already addressed aren't repeated.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

honestly I agree with the downgrade but I know it will never happen.

 

[Newendigo]

Why you think is gonna never happen, maybe i'm not on the truth in almost i say but still there's material to put chara some below of his actual tier.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

the best you could hope for is 2 C but there is no way it will happen .

 

[Newendigo]

i'm satisfied with 3-A but what i could do...

 

[Ultima_Reality]

3-A is utterly downplay


Chara is Low 2-C in biggest of the nerfs

 

[Newendigo]

well... in terms of physical skill

Speed:Hypersonic( like match 5 and is like 5000 KL for hour) and he need the help of the raven person to get snowdin where's not even far. Also he can dodge things like gasterblastes becuase he was blasted before, that is the popular estrategy of chara, he learn of his enemies pattern after he died in a fight.

Intelligence:Like presumesly higher(i don't know where's heck they brought that).He never must some signal of higher intelligence,he neve did any puzzle and his offensive strategy is just "¡keep attaking!".Also learn of his enemies in something that any player can do.

strenght:Again is something that never muster and the mounster are is not a exseption because LOVE is the power to hurt other people more easy and not have any remorse, that doesn't means that he are more "stronger".

 

[Newendigo]

whatever i will very satiesfy if they downgrade chara even in low 2-C.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Chara being far above low 2-C has already been noted.

Can someone close this please.

 

[Newendigo]

I DONT KNOW HOW CLOSE!

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Only staff members can close threads

 

[Newendigo]

well can some one do this please