Chara Downgrade

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright, so I just watched the Chara thing for the first time and to put it lightly, so many of the things involving him aren't justified. Also, if any of this changes with Deltarune...meh.

Also, even though Chara's canonically "they", I'll be using "he" for my ease. Sue me.

Omnipresence
Starting off with the easiest one. This is like, the most ridiculous one. The reasoning is "Exists as an abstract entity whose influence is everywhere in all possible timelines, as well as continuing to exist everywhere in the empty void after reality has been destroyed" I'll get to abstraction soon enough, but let me break this up bit by bit.

No, his influence never extends outside of the player, and it's never said to be a part of all possible timelines. He just owns your soul and is acausal so the reset doesn't affect him. The only thing that changes is literally the last few seconds of a pacifist run.

Chara is never stated to exist everywhere in the empty void either. He's literally just out of view. That requires so many less assumptions that it's silly that this was accepted for so long.

Mid Godly rege
It's made very clear that Chara never regenerated on his own volition. He never did anything like Flowey or Frisk where he refused to die. Chara actually did die. Chara himself outright says that this is reincarnation. Furthermore, Frisk needs to actually be there for Chara to re-manifest. If he could just come back willy-nilly, it would've happened well before Frisk fell into the underground.

Determinatio
My "human soul"...

My "determination"...

They were not mine, but YOURS.

Chara lacks determination on his own.

Type 7 immortality
Chara was resurrected and therefore wasn't undead.

Type 8 immortality.
This ties in with what I said about abstract existence earlier. It comes from this line:

"HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. Every time a number increases, that feeling... That's me. 'Chara.'"

Chara being the embodiment of stats leveling up is so out of left field that it shouldn't be the first assumption period. It can quite easily mean that's Chara's influence affecting Frisk/The Player as they continue slaying. It could be hyperbole, as he calls himself the demon that comes when people call his name right before the line in another genocide run. Furthermore, how on earth would this even work? Chara was DEAD not that much long ago. How would he know? And if he was a concept, his original death shouldn't have happened.

Conclusion
Chara isn't nearly the unkillable monster that he's been portrayed as these past three years.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Omnipresence

I actually do agree with this one, to an extent.

Mid Godly regen and Determinatio

This ignores what happens at the very end of the route. Obviously Chara couldn't come back without DETERMINATION, hence why they didn't until Frisk and the Anomaly arrived. Chara's SOUL was absorbed by Asriel, who was destroyed, thus there would be no natural source of DETERMINATION for Chara. However, throughout the genocide route, they feed on your DETERMINATION, and eventually end up taking your SOUL. Chara no longer needs the Anomaly to feed them DETERMINATION, at that point. The thing they wanted now belongs to them.

Type 7 Immortality

"Chara was resurrected and therefore wasn't undead."

They're a spirit. They're not actually alive. "Your power awakened me from death" refers to them becoming conscious again, not gaining a new physical body. Hell, they're hijacking Frisk's body the whole run, and continue to do so in the post-genocide pacifist runs. They don't even have a form when you talk to them after the world gets destroyed.

Type 8 Immortality

"It can quite easily mean that's Chara's influence affecting Frisk/The Player as they continue slaying."

This wouldn't be supported by the game itself, since Chara flat out says it was the Anomaly who showed them their purpose. A big theme of this route is that the will to kill is placed heavily in the hands of the actual player, hence why a big deal is made about you not being above consequence.

"It could be hyperbole"

Why take it to be so? We assume something is hyperbole when we are given reason to believe that the statement is not meant to be taken at face value, but Chara seems pretty clear about being something that will move with the Player onto the next world (which, as they specify if you try to play again after the genocide ending, does not refer to another Undertale playthrough). Chara has clearly become something no longer bound to the world of Undertale.

"as he calls himself the demon that comes when people call his name right before the line in another genocide ru"

A title Chara takes pertaining to their role isn't exactly the same type of statement.

"Furthermore, how on earth would this even work? Chara was DEAD not that much long ago. How would he know? And if he was a concept, his original death shouldn't have happened."

What Chara becomes =/= what Chara used to be. The Chara at the end of the genocide run is not the same as the spiteful kid who died long before every other run took place. They have become something entirely different, which should be pretty clear from the fact that they flat out obliterate every aspect of the world they came from and seem completely unaffected, as well as intent on moving with you to another world.

I do however think use of the word "concept" on the page could likely be replaced with something like "idea", as it serves the same purpose it does now, but prevents a few minor issues. The wiki has gone far more in depth in analyzing "concepts", and it's not like Chara even has conceptual manipulation or something of the sort listed on their page for this to apply to. They are an abstract idea, but this does not mean they affect other things on a conceptual level.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Mid Godly regen & Determinatio

There's a few things with that. One, the Anomaly doesn't have Mid-Godly regen. Frisk does. Two, the SOUL and DETERMINATION, while interrelated, aren't the same thing. Frisk is the one with DETERMINATION (as opposed to determination, which is notably lowercase as Chara's talking to the player), not the Anomaly. That soul doesn't have the feats of resurrecting after destruction, unlike Frisk's. Three, even if I were to concede on this point, that's not even Mid Godly regen, but Type 8 immortality, as it's not purely from Chara.

Type 7 immortality

Which is why Chara has Type 6, unless I got types 6 and 7 confused.

Type 8 immortality

The current justification ignores it even more so. We know Chara is sadistic, cynical, and desires destruction. That much is set in stone in the lore. What's much less so is Chara, or anyone for that matter, being the embodiment of anything. Chara's purpose was gaining power. The line may not necessarily be talking about his influence, but it was certainly at least talking about Chara getting stronger. As I said in the OP, Chara embodying stats is the most out of left field thing in the game, so it definitely needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

"Hyperbole"

Which exactly is what the statement is: something that shouldn't be taken at face value. Chara did become essentially a god. I'm not doubting that. But that's through gaining power, as I said above. There's also the fact that Chara, while like, clearly an intelligent godlike being, still has the mind of a sub-adult without a true grasp on concepts. Hyperbole isn't exactly something far out of reach there.

"Title"

Chara isn't just taking this as a title, as they follow up with saying "It doesn't matter when, it doesn't matter where, I will appear."

"Furthermore"

True, as he did gain that power. However, the mind of that Chara is the same 'throughout the genocide run, and probably through the end of it. The statement that's given with its current definition implies that Chara was that feeling no matter what, and as soon as Frisk gained LV, that was him. However, Chara didn't become absolute until well after Frisk's first LV. And that didn't answer how would Chara know, especially considering as you said, he was realizing his purpose as time went on.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Mid Godly regen & Determinatio

1. We don't know what level of regen the Anomaly has because they never die. They are you (the player), and you are disconnected from the world of Undertale.

2. SOULs create DETERMINATION. This is directly confirmed by Alphys in her study of it. SOULs basically function as DETERMINATION factories.

"ENTRY NUMBER 5 I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living. The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination"."

Even if we ignore the suggested links between the Anomaly's SOUL and Frisk's SOUL, yes, the Anomaly's SOUL does have the feats of bringing someone back from complete destruction. It brought Chara back. The ending of the genocide route is Chara speaking to you, the Anomaly. They aren't speaking to Frisk.

3. No, that'd still be Mid-Godly. Chara did not exist, and then the DETERMINATION (which, again, they take for their own at the end of the route) brings them back. If Chara can do this own their own now, which there is no reason for them to be unable to, that is Mid-Godly. Something can have both higher-end immortality as well as Regenerationn. They are not exclusive.

Type 7 Immortality

Someone who is both undead and uses parasitic body hopping would have both types 6 and 7. Two of the characters used as the examples for Type 7 immortality showcase this.

Type 8 Immortality

"What's much less so is Chara, or anyone for that matter, being the embodiment of anything."

This argument would only really apply if this version of Chara had appeared elsewhere in the game and we had other things to go off of that pointed in a different direction.

"Chara's purpose was gaining power. The line may not necessarily be talking about his influence, but it was certainly at least talking about Chara getting stronger."

Chara getting stronger and Chara becoming something vastly different than whatever they were before are not mutually exclusive.

"As I said in the OP, Chara embodying stats is the most out of left field thing in the game, so it definitely needs to be taken with a grain of salt."

It's not, actually. It's based on some stuff with pretty clear set up. The entire route is about flipping the idea of "grinding" in an RPG on its head. When you grind in the genocide route, you are doing so for a similar reason as in nearly every other RPG. You're doing so to become stronger, or to gain resources, or to get something out of wailing on hordes of enemies. You're perpetually increasing your LOVE and EXP through senseless violence, all so you can see your stats rise, and because you don't see the monsters you're killing as anything more than what they can give you. All this time, you're helping Chara realize their "true purpose". Them becoming the "feeling" you get from murdering people just to increase a number is one of the most clear paths the game could have taken with the message it's trying to convey. It's not like is Asriel said "I AM stats!" or something, since his goal and purpose, as well as the route he appears in, are ludicrously different and would not allign with such a statement.

"But that's through gaining power, as I said above."

Again, not just through "gaining power". Through gaining these, with EXP and LOVE being most important to the core idea. Chara is becoming stronger through an increased capacity to hurt others and feel nothing from their pain. What's left behind when you take that empathy away? The feeling you get from seeing your numbers go up after you murder them.

"There's also the fact that Chara, while like, clearly an intelligent godlike being, still has the mind of a sub-adult without a true grasp on concepts."

Chara never says they are a "concept", hence why I said replacing that word is probably optimal. The exact word they use is "feeling", and I'd think something like that or "idea" would be more fitting, because they sure as hell aren't even remotely a person, any more.

"Chara isn't just taking this as a title, as they follow up with saying "It doesn't matter when, it doesn't matter where, I will appear.""

That second sentence seems pretty literal, to me. Chara exists in all possible timelines/save slots you can go through, after you actually finish the genocide route. They're always there, and them appearing when you partake in the thing they supposedly embody seems to be a pretty common theme. To even get this dialogue, you essentially need to "call their name" again by doing a second genocide run after the first.

"The statement that's given with its current definition implies that Chara was that feeling no matter what, and as soon as Frisk gained LV, that was him."

That's definitely not the case. This Chara does not even start to possess Frisk until you've killed everyone in the Ruins before Toriel, and it's only after you've killed Toriel that Flowey even acknowledges Chara having taken over. Chara's purpose to be/become this thing does not mean they are said thing the second the run starts, and they only become this constant presence/feeling after they reach "the absolute".


Because this shit was a lot longer than I expected, I'll try to boil down a key idea.

A SOUL is the very culmination of someone's being. Chara is dead. Their SOUL was destroyed and they have no body. Yet they still exist. By the game's very definition, the Chara you meet at the end of a Genocide route is not the same child from all those years ago. They are something else entirely. If what we have to go on is what they tell us they are, I don't believe we have much reason to doubt that. They don't exactly lie to the Anomaly very much, if at all.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I've removed omnipresent and replaced it with immeasurable as per your agreement. I'll respond to the rest later.

 

[DMB_1]

But the UT God Tiers' speed is gonna get downgraded to infinite

Following this.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with Chara being an idea/feeling. Not commenting on most of the rest.

OmnipresenceI actually do agree with this one, to an extent.

Is there any reason for Chara to actually be Omnipresence?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

OmnipresenceI actually do agree with this one, to an extent.

Is there any reason for Chara to actually be Omnipresence?

"to an extent" meaning I don't agree with it being a speed value here, but that Chara pretty clearly keeps influence in every variation of the world, even after the Anomaly does.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, there are other justifications for that influence without involving Omnipresence. I fail to see why are the top-tiers immeasurable but that's being handled in the another thread.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's not "Omnipresence" as we list it under speed (which is why I said it isn't), but I said "to an extent" because Cal also said, "his influence never extends outside of the player", which I don't agree with, because their influence extends beyond that.

Cal changed it to "Immeasurable" because that's what it is at the time. I've already agreed to Infinite, but it hasn't been set in stone and changed, yet.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, that both is and isn't what I said. As an acausal multiversal pseudo-deity, it's impossible for your influence to not extend past the player.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Cal

Wouldn't that be irrelevant, then? Because by the very nature of what they are, the player has influence in every variation of the world that occurs after their arrival. There is no version of Undertale that happens without them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Influence is different from being there though. Dark Mind for example has influence over the entire Mirror World, but isn't omnipresent or have the AP to perform a Chara on the Mirror World. Basically, Chara's not everywhere. They can just affect everywhere.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

They can just affect everywhere.

That's why I agreed with removing omnipresence. The part I was disagreeing with was "his influence never extends outside of the player".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

To be fair, they never change anything up unti that last second in a pacifist run. Also, even Chara's affected by a True Reset, correct?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Nah, Chara is one of the only things (alongside you) that seems unaffected by a true reset. If you help them reach their absolute, they will always exist, even after destroying and restoring the world, and even after a true reset.

It's part of why finishing a genocide run permanently punishes you. You can never actually get rid of Chara without altering some files in your computer (for the PC version, obviously).

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Here is what I got to say so far after skimming through the thread.

I agree with Chara not having regen since they don't have a physical body, no soul, has limited reincarnation & self-resurrection when using your Determination (nothing here implies Regenerationn). So Chara should receive type 4 immortality for this since as long as Frisk has Determination (due to being a part of them), Chara can keep resurrecting themselves back to existence (this may also include type 8 since Frisk's Determination is the reason why Chara can't permanently die and you have to erase them out of existence....which Chara is also resistant too apparently since they can survive their own attack which destroyed the entire game's reality). For type 7 immortality, @The real cal if what you mentioned earlier wasn't a clear misinterpretation that you actually was really trying to say that Chara was resurrected through Determination that wasn't from them, then I would of agreed with Azzy & said that claim sounds false too instead. So I agree with your claim on Type 7 immortality but you need to be more specific with that claim.

Regarding the "embodying stats" claim, Chara would embody Ambition due to being the reincarnation made from your Determination and desire to become more powerful (which is Chara's main goal after being guided by your actions and the choices you make), and embodying stats is a clear misconception & misinterpretation on whoever part that is still currently defending that. Not to mention that is irrelevant since you couldn't max out your stats without hard work ofc and guess what? Hard work is a part of the definition of Ambition and Determination + Hard work = Ambition which is clear as day.

 

[Davidliteral]

Hmm... These are what's my thoughts.

Regarding to "HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV." claim, first off how Chara's Opponents would kill Chara supposed to be? Delete the concept of HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV.? Make HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. into zero/empty? It doesn't make any sense.

HP does exist to every living being, ATK is based on the damage the target takes, DEF is based on "def" of durability which is exist to everything, GOLD is based on "money" but it doesn't embodies all GOLDs substance from universe/existence, EXP is literally the same concept of LV but EXP is still a fraction of LV while also LV was implied to be LOVE.

Chara embodies HP of every living being and they embodies the concept of Violence? What a joke. And this what I thought in the end of Chara's statement.

Feeling =/= Embodies

Less embodies stats. More like Chara posessed Frisk body to feel the HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@David Yea, it doesn't make sense since Chara doesn't actually embody your stats. The last thing you mentioned explains why that's the case and someone who embodies Ambition views these concepts that you constantly increase in the genocide route when you kill monsters in the Underground as a form of power which Chara desires the most out of everything else after all.

 

[Antvasima]

Since Azathoth seems to have handled all of the raised questions, should we close this thread?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Dude I don't even know what people end up saying after a while in some Undertale threads, so I can't really weigh in, there.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.