Chainsaw Man: Spear me a timeframe

[GunshyFever]

In the most recent chapter of Chainsaw Man (Chapter 224), Yoru transmutes the American flag on the Moon into a spear and uses America's claim to the Moon as a homing mechanism. Shortly after, the Moon is shown slowly taking aim before accelerating toward its target, Denji. The spear is explicitly stated to pursue him continuously until it acknowledges defeat. I have made calculations for this feat using multiple potential timeframes and explanations. However due to the ambiguity involved, I am seeking additional opinions on what the general consensus among the majority of CGM members would be regarding the appropriate interpretation of this feat. For additional context, I can further explain how the spear functions throughout the chapter. The spear takes a moment to lock onto its target before accelerating, and it is consistently shown to require time to reorient and re-home after each strike. The spear is depicted as extremely fast. It begins accelerating on page 2, panel 2 of this Imgur scan and almost immediately ignites in the mesosphere. Counting the panels prior to its movement would not be reasonable in my opinion, as they cannot be treated as discrete seconds before the acceleration occurs. My current understanding is that the timeframe for this feat most likely falls within the 1 to 3 second range. However, what would be considered the most accurate or acceptable timeframe for CRT purposes?

---

5-Second End (Safe End)
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

3-Second End (]Primary End)
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

2-Second End (Mesosphere End)
Agree: @Drite77, @Dalesean027, @Naito-desu, @ElJoaki5 (4)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

following

 

[Drite77]

I've mentioned 4 seconds being better imo and I still maintain said opinion

 

[Arkenis]

Unless distance from Moon to Earth doesn't mean surface to surface, wouldn't we have to include the panel of it crashing into the building too? That'd be five panels.

1. When it starts moving
2. When it ignites
3. When it forms the dome
4. The shot of it above Earth
5. It hitting the building

 

[Drite77]

Unless distance from Moon to Earth doesn't mean surface to surface, wouldn't we have to include the panel of it crashing into the building too? That'd be five panels.

1. When it starts moving
2. When it ignites
3. When it forms the dome
4. The shot of it above Earth
5. It hitting the building

I ingored the first as I was informed the Spear takes a while to find its target, I took as it "Finding" its target

 

[GunshyFever]

Unless distance from Moon to Earth doesn't mean surface to surface, wouldn't we have to include the panel of it crashing into the building too? That'd be five panels.

1. When it starts moving
2. When it ignites
3. When it forms the dome
4. The shot of it above Earth
5. It hitting the building

I still do not support the notion of counting all those panels as individual seconds. For example, it forms the heat dome instantly right after it locks onto Denji. Using the mesosphere end, that means the spear traveled hundreds of kilometers already, and then we get a wider snapshot of the spear before it instantly crashes onto Denji. It hitting the building would not and should not be counted as an additional second imo because that's just the spear instantly crashing onto Denji.

 

[Arkenis]

Gushy said "The very next panel introduces speed lines which indicates the start of acceleration." That's the first and so on till it hits Earth, makes it five panels. We don't ignore the start of something's acceleration when measuring speed especially given a speed feat this high.

 

[GunshyFever]

Gushy said "The very next panel introduces speed lines which indicates the start of acceleration." That's the first and so on till it hits Earth, makes it five panels. We don't ignore the start of something's acceleration when measuring speed especially given a speed feat this high.

There's no way each of those individual panels was the spear accurately traveling a second toward earth with no time dilation. Manga panels do not translate directly into real time seconds which is why I made the assumptions in the first place. I guarantee you taking every panel as a real world second is inaccurate.

 

[Arkenis]

I still do not support the notion of counting all those panels as individual seconds. For example, it forms the heat dome instantly right after it locks onto Denji. Using the mesosphere end, that means the spear traveled hundreds of kilometers already, and then we get a wider snapshot of the spear before it instantly crashes onto Denji. It hitting the building would not and should not be counted as an additional second imo because that's just the spear instantly crashing onto Denji.

I guess if we're not counting, I'd say 2s should be fine. This is meant as probably her greatest weapon creation so far and we already have her Statue gun being sub-rel, wouldn't make sense this attack is only 6.6x faster. Also you put the wrong ke for the 2 second value

 

[Drite77]

There's no way each of those individual panels was the spear accurately traveling a second toward earth with no time dilation. Manga panels do not translate directly into real time seconds which is why I made the assumptions in the first place. I guarantee you taking every panel as a real world second is inaccurate.

That's the standard we do for Mangas and comics when we don't have a timeframe

 

[Arkenis]

I alternatively thought maybe if time is not agreed upon, would measuring the speed for moon to mesosphere in one second be just as good? The mesosphere isn't very high into the sky only being 50 to 85km, so wouldn't be subtracting much.

 

[GunshyFever]

I am also in full support of the second end, if you never saw my stance in the calc. It works best with scaling and consistency regarding the verse. Yoru has an attack that is 0.18cdone while she was far weaker than she is now, so it makes the most sense as well.

 

[GunshyFever]

That's the standard we do for Mangas and comics when we don't have a timeframe

Well in this scenario we need to lift the standard with a better scenario because it doesn't work well here at all, it only gives inaccurate numbers due to argument of ignorance

I alternatively thought maybe if time is not agreed upon, would measuring the speed for moon to mesosphere in one second be just as good? The mesosphere isn't very high into the sky only being 50 to 85km, so wouldn't be subtracting much.

If we can agree on this I'll be down to do it.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Id use full moon earth distance and 5 seconds

 

[GunshyFever]

I alternatively thought maybe if time is not agreed upon, would measuring the speed for moon to mesosphere in one second be just as good? The mesosphere isn't very high into the sky only being 50 to 85km, so wouldn't be subtracting much.

I added the mesosphere end, get's the same results, no K.E though, however we do get an accurate portrayal for the acceleration of the spear which is all we already need.

Id use full moon earth distance and 5 seconds

Based on interpreting each major panel as a moment in time then the 3/4 second end is your go to.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Panel 1-2: Set up
Panel 3: Unclear
Panel 4-6: traveling
Panel 7: time of arrival

The minimum timeframe is logically 4 panels or 4 seconds.
But since in panel 4 the spear has already begun traveling and has covered a good distance I'd consider panel 3 as the starting point of the traveling and use 5 whole panels or seconds rather than 4.

 

[GunshyFever]

We already came to the consensus that page 2, panel 2 is the spear locking onto Denji and that the panel itself, even if the spear does begin accelerating at that point, cannot be counted as a second because it already immediately arrives at the mesosphere. Counting all the panels where the spear is shown, but not accelerating as a second is inaccurate, period. Not to mention, we have already been shown how the spear functions in the OP.

Panels 4 to 6 are just wide snapshots. In panel 4, the spear had already reached the mesosphere instantly and as we get a wider angle, we see that to be the case. You cannot count those panels as individual real world seconds, it IS inaccurate guaranteed as the spear would be moving in place for no reason. This is a situation where the panel = second method fails us.

Hence why the 4 or 3 second ends are an extreme stretch, because they already break the logic of what already happens in the scene.

 

[Saqphire]

Panels 4 to 6 are just wide snapshots. In panel 4, the spear had already reached the mesosphere instantly and as we get a wider angle, we see that to be the case. You cannot count those panels as individual real world seconds, it IS inaccurate guaranteed as the spear would be moving in place for no reason. This is a situation where the panel = second method fails us.

Also, second timeframes for speed feats have been irrelevant since Part 1 lmao.

Anyways, since Denjita Denji Man said he "almost got speared", why not use a timeframe he scales to (that we already accept as established timeframes for calcing like Mach 1)? Or is that calc stacking?

 

[GunshyFever]

Calc stacking sadly, but he easily scales to the acceleration of the spear because he dodges it several times over. Let's not drift away from the discussion at hand though.

 

[NikHelton]

In fact, the fire that Fujimoto drew is very confusing, because the flag begins to burn tens of thousands of kilometers from the Earth.

 

[GunshyFever]

In fact, the fire that Fujimoto drew is very confusing, because the flag begins to burn tens of thousands of kilometers from the Earth.

The "spear" actually is shown pretty close to the earth after it accelerates. Unless you mean something differently by the flag

 

[PhantomØ4]

I'm no CGM but I'm sorry but are we fr using this justification for no moon to mesosphere distance?

"There is also a not slim chance the Mangaka only made it catch fire to show how fast the flag is going."

We do not know what Fujimoto was thinking and we cannot know what Fujimoto was thinking, the possibility of the mangaka maybe thinking "something something physics" really should not be a valid assumption... specially when VSBW as a whole mostly ignores what the author intends to depict and what they actually depict within their stories and there is nothing contradicting this notion.

5 seconds seems like a cop out "low numbers are more accurate cuz low number" even ignoring Denji waiting for the attack to come for 5 seconds is ridiculous. Besides, we all know that exact panel to second timeframe is unreliable and this is pointed out every time a calc using this logic results in high results rather than low.

So what actually is the issue with moon to mesosphere end other than wanting to play it safe and making it actually make less sense within the context of the story. There should be an issue with taking that end if it isn't used.

In fact, the fire that Fujimoto drew is very confusing, because the flag begins to burn tens of thousands of kilometers from the Earth.

The earth is also a couple thousand of kilometers away from the moon using this logic btw.

 

[Zabazab]

Shock-horror: Each panel does not have the same stretch of time between them.

I'd just use a number that's realistic for this attack to be at all usable like it was in the middle of their fight instead of trying to count panels.

 

[GunshyFever]

Is it possible if we could get other CGMs in here? We won't reach to a conclusion if the people needed to do so are not present.

 

[Drite77]

Technically speaking, CGMs have no voting rights in CRTs

 

[GunshyFever]

Technically speaking, CGMs have no voting rights in CRTs

I meant in the sense of getting everyone's opinions in, not a democracy

 

[Arkenis]

Nah this is for you guys, its not crt so your thoughts matter more

 

[Drite77]

Oh I thought this was in the CRT label. Regardless, Eljoaki seems to believe in 5 seconds, I said 4 but I'm willing ti change to 5 since I can see it as well.

So I suppose you can count 2 votes for that timeframe

 

[GunshyFever]

I have added a voting system, and I have updated my calc by changing the formerly suggested 4 second end to a 5 second end. If anyone is able, please invite other CGMs to join the discussion.

 

[Drite77]

Maybe after Christmas

 

[ElJoaki5]

If there was a timeframe we could get from the fight it would be okay to use that like with Yoru's weaponization speed. But this is not the case, the fight at that moment is paused.

 

[GunshyFever]

I revised the method to use an acceleration based approach, which is the more appropriate method for this scene. The spear is no longer treated as moving at a constant speed using distance divided by time and is instead treated as starting from rest and accelerating, since it is shown hovering before ignition and only begins moving once speed lines appear. Speed values are now based on final or peak velocity rather than average velocity, and the K.E calculations were updated accordingly to use the final speed. A 5 second safe end was added, alongside a 3 second primary end and a 1 second mesosphere end. The Earth to Moon distance of 384,400 km and the visual panel interpretation remain unchanged, and the mesosphere ignition argument is still included only as an alternate justification. Using average speed understates the result when the spear is accelerating and Denji is reacting during that acceleration.

Yoru spears Denji

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[GunshyFever]

I also updated the CRT voting methods, and I'll remove your votes considering you haven't checked through the new method yet

 

[Dalesean027]

Im personally partial tp the 2 second end, can't claim to want to be accurate but ignore that in like 1~2 panels the spear travelled far enough already to be ignited in Earth's mesosphere. That's just the simple fact of the matter and trying to headcanon the reasons behind why Fuji had it ignite is ultimately meaningless instead of just accepting that its entire purpose is supposed to a fast as shit spear attack dropping from the moon mid combat.


Now with that said the calcs needs to appropriately represent the distance from the Earth to the Mesosphere since right now the results would be highballed for distance as the distance from the earth to moon is typically measured as center to center and not surface to surface so you wanna subtract the distance to the mesosphere from the total distance to get more accurate results for that end

 

[Dalesean027]

Also @Drite77 and @ElJoaki5 this is a CGM thread so its your votes that currently matter here too, the only way you'd need voting rights is for when an actual CRT is made to try and implement what is accepted here

 

[GunshyFever]

Now with that said the calcs needs to appropriately represent the distance from the Earth to the Mesosphere since right now the results would be highballed for distance as the distance from the earth to moon is typically measured as center to center and not surface to surface so you wanna subtract the distance to the mesosphere from the total distance to get more accurate results for that end

I'm pretty tired, so I'll make the corrections to the mesosphere end in the morning and from then I'll let you know. Merry Christmas (Eve).

 

[Dalesean027]

Merry Christmas to to you as well and alrighty

 

[Drite77]

Also @Drite77 and @ElJoaki5 this is a CGM thread so its your votes that currently matter here too, the only way you'd need voting rights is for when an actual CRT is made to try and implement what is accepted here

Ello, am drunk

 

[Naito-desu]

I'm with Dalesean on being partial to 2 seconds, it might change as this scene gets animated somewhere in like, 2030. Four seconds works too.

Merry Christmas yall

 

[Saqphire]

I revised the method to use an acceleration based approach, which is the more appropriate method for this scene. The spear is no longer treated as moving at a constant speed using distance divided by time and is instead treated as starting from rest and accelerating, since it is shown hovering before ignition and only begins moving once speed lines appear. Speed values are now based on final or peak velocity rather than average velocity, and the K.E calculations were updated accordingly to use the final speed. A 5 second safe end was added, alongside a 3 second primary end and a 1 second mesosphere end. The Earth to Moon distance of 384,400 km and the visual panel interpretation remain unchanged, and the mesosphere ignition argument is still included only as an alternate justification. Using average speed understates the result when the spear is accelerating and Denji is reacting during that acceleration.

Yoru spears Denji

vsbattles.fandom.com

Looks alot better but I aint a CGM so my opinion is irrelevant.

Also the first end is rela+ since it exceeds the 0.5c mark