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Chainsaw Man discussion thread

CSM Folk, shouldn't War have class 100 LS off Yoshida?
when Asa blocked Yoshida's slay, she was also blocking the force of his two arms pressing down on her. Yoshida (with a shocked expression mind you) also immedately opted to use the octopus devil to restrain hwr
 
GunshyFever said:
I was planning to take a trip to the Burj Khalifa, but I'm actually content in this ending. I thought Fujimoto would make some depressing unsatisfactory ending, with a hole left for the reader to fill.

But I can honestly live to read his next work.
Click to expand...
Clutch
 
Depends. I read to understand the message Fujimoto was trying to portray through Chainsaw Man, much like his other works. Most reactions I see are from people who did not understand the message and did not get the casual ending they wanted. Or at least, that is my view on it.
 
Epiccheev said:
Anyone who did like the ending is lowkey not a fan, because no fan would ever be happy with the idea of the story ending
Click to expand...
That reminds me of the fact that i cried for 10 minutes in my mother's arm (which saw the movie with me) because this peak series ending... it left me with a hole in my chest
 
GunshyFever said:
Depends. I read to understand the message Fujimoto was trying to portray through Chainsaw Man, much like his other works. Most reactions I see are from people who did not understand the message and did not get the casual ending they wanted. Or at least, that is my view on it.
Click to expand...
They were hoping for these type of panels. Instead its a bunch of "what happened to xyz" without realizing the story's about Denji, not the random hybrids/fiends.
0431-026.png

Black-Clover-Ending-Shonen-Jump-Manga.jpg

genuine-question-why-does-the-ending-in-jjk-feel-like-v0-00ljwy67l2cf1.jpeg


Have yall seen this?
47st6q5ruxsg1.png
 
Puppet43 said:
In spanish community you see more of a "Part 2 was a dream/not canon; Part 1 was decent"
Click to expand...
I've seen them and I am not afraid to say that I loathe their slander. As much as they can shoot down the opinions of those who enjoyed the series, I can do vice versa. They never got the point of the story of Chainsaw Man if their opinion on Part 2 is that they were unable to figure out its point while they praise Part 1. Ridiculous to be frank.

"He just regresses in Part 2" I wonder why. Even as school students, did these people not have literature as a subject?
 
Arkenis said:
Have yall seen this?
Click to expand...
Sums up the minds of those who dog on the ending. To this day I have not had one constructive argument with someone who did not like the ending who was not disingenuous as **** or who could genuinely comprehend "Hey, I am reading a story about being better without something you hold dear, or else it will continue to take everything else away from you". That is actually a great concept and I see the point of it, yet no one gives jackshit just because Kobeni's ******* contract was not revealed or some dumb shit like, "Oh, I wanted Death to be the main antagonist of the story", not realizing that none of that shit was the point in the first place. It is just fan service that they yearn for.
 
Can one person here tell me the point of the famous Asa Mitaka's character which you all hold so dear that supposedly got a "bad ending"? I beseech you, do.
 
GunshyFever said:
Sums up the minds of those who dog on the ending. To this day I have not had one constructive argument with someone who did not like the ending who was not disingenuous as ** or who could genuinely comprehend "Hey, I am reading a story about being better without something you hold dear, or else it will continue to take everything else away from you". That is actually a great concept and I see the point of it, yet no one gives jackshit just because Kobeni's ***** contract was not revealed or some dumb shit like, "Oh, I wanted Death to be the main antagonist of the story", not realizing that none of that shit was the point in the first place. It is just fan service that they yearn for.
Click to expand...
I think my main issue with it is how much agency it takes away from Denji. Like we spent the entire part seeing him learn the weight of making decisions and wanting him to finally make a choice that wasn't by someone else, and the ending is Pochita making the choice for him.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I think my main issue with it is how much agency it takes away from Denji. Like we spent the entire part seeing him learn the weight of making decisions and wanting him to finally make a choice that wasn't by someone else, and the ending is Pochita making the choice for him.
Click to expand...
This is actually one of the more reasonable arguments I have seen and I understand where you are coming from. But I think the issue is that this frames Denji's trauma as if the story is saying "Because this horrible thing happened to him, he became stronger so maybe it was necessary". I do not think that is what the story is saying at all. In fact we are shown the opposite.

Denji's life as Chainsaw Man traps him in a constant cycle of violence. He wants multiple things at once. He wants to live a normal life, have a family and still be Chainsaw Man. But the problem is that he cannot truly have that normal life while remaining tied to Chainsaw Man, because that identity constantly brings danger and death to the people around him. That is why he keeps losing people again and again. Instead of being able to choose the person he loves and protect a normal life, Denji keeps choosing Chainsaw Man or being dragged back into Chainsaw Man and then he loses the people he was trying to hold onto. Nayuta is the clearest example of that. He wanted both lives, but the Chainsaw Man side of his life made it impossible for him to protect the normal one.

So to me, the story is not saying Denji's trauma made him better. It is showing that his relationship with Chainsaw Man became unhealthy. It became something he clung to because it gave him attention and purpose then validation and a reason to keep going.
fL0TCl5.png
0Vs78GB.png

- Denji choosing Chainsaw man over Nayuta's life.
But at the same time it was also the thing destroying his chance at the normal life he always wanted. We see this in early Part 2.
KiPQMbS.png
XzSQQ1m.png
hEUEPkg.png

That is why I do not fully agree with the "Denji lost agency" argument. I get the concern, but Denji's so called choices throughout Part 2 were not exactly healthy free choices either. A lot of them came from trauma and obsession as well as his need to be Chainsaw Man because he did not know who he was without it. Removing Chainsaw Man from that equation is not just taking away his agency but also gives Denji the chance to become his own person without being trapped by that identity forever.

Does this look like a person who is healing from his trauma in a healthy fashion?
aRyuHSb.png
Wb3UfTB.png
ACuCU3p.png
URL]

Denji says he will find another family. He says he can make a perpetual motion machine. That is exactly the problem he is having. He is trying to brute force his way through loss by repeating the same cycle again. Lose family, find another one. Lose that family, find another one. Keep moving, keep suffering and keep pretending it is fine.

And guess what the very concept of Aging responds with:
gStjJR9.png

This is symbolic in the fact that the concept of getting older itself finds Denji's idea stupid, pointing out how clearly self destructive Denji's mindset is because as his life goes on, this will only become a living hell if he keeps trapping himself inside the same unhealthy loop. He cannot keep losing family after family and act like that is a normal or sustainable way to live.

And this is why It's important that we understand that not every trauma builds people up. Some trauma breaks people down even more, sometimes to the point where they cannot escape it on their own. You can see that in real life too. People do not always "grow stronger" from suffering and sometimes suffering just damages them more and more.

My view is that the ending is saying Denji's trauma was not necessary. It shows a world where Denji is no longer hunted and sought out because he is Chainsaw Man. He is not being forced to exist as a weapon or a target. He is just Denji, his own person, finally able to make decisions without Chainsaw Man constantly dragging him back into violence. And what matters is that it took Chainsaw Man himself to show him that.
 
mhm, I really need to reread the entire manga again, last time I did that, Pochita just ate barem

+ I genuinely haven't interacted with anything chainsaw man related after the ending, besides this GD, which just makes me feel empty sometimes considering how long I've been following this series
 
GunshyFever said:
This is actually one of the more reasonable arguments I have seen and I understand where you are coming from. But I think the issue is that this frames Denji's trauma as if the story is saying "Because this horrible thing happened to him, he became stronger so maybe it was necessary". I do not think that is what the story is saying at all. In fact we are shown the opposite.

Denji's life as Chainsaw Man traps him in a constant cycle of violence. He wants multiple things at once. He wants to live a normal life, have a family and still be Chainsaw Man. But the problem is that he cannot truly have that normal life while remaining tied to Chainsaw Man, because that identity constantly brings danger and death to the people around him. That is why he keeps losing people again and again. Instead of being able to choose the person he loves and protect a normal life, Denji keeps choosing Chainsaw Man or being dragged back into Chainsaw Man and then he loses the people he was trying to hold onto. Nayuta is the clearest example of that. He wanted both lives, but the Chainsaw Man side of his life made it impossible for him to protect the normal one.

So to me, the story is not saying Denji's trauma made him better. It is showing that his relationship with Chainsaw Man became unhealthy. It became something he clung to because it gave him attention and purpose then validation and a reason to keep going.
fL0TCl5.png
0Vs78GB.png

- Denji choosing Chainsaw man over Nayuta's life.
But at the same time it was also the thing destroying his chance at the normal life he always wanted. We see this in early Part 2.
KiPQMbS.png
XzSQQ1m.png
hEUEPkg.png

That is why I do not fully agree with the "Denji lost agency" argument. I get the concern, but Denji's so called choices throughout Part 2 were not exactly healthy free choices either. A lot of them came from trauma and obsession as well as his need to be Chainsaw Man because he did not know who he was without it. Removing Chainsaw Man from that equation is not just taking away his agency but also gives Denji the chance to become his own person without being trapped by that identity forever.

Does this look like a person who is healing from his trauma in a healthy fashion?
aRyuHSb.png
Wb3UfTB.png
ACuCU3p.png
URL]

Denji says he will find another family. He says he can make a perpetual motion machine. That is exactly the problem he is having. He is trying to brute force his way through loss by repeating the same cycle again. Lose family, find another one. Lose that family, find another one. Keep moving, keep suffering and keep pretending it is fine.

And guess what the very concept of Aging responds with:
gStjJR9.png

This is symbolic in the fact that the concept of getting older itself finds Denji's idea stupid, pointing out how clearly self destructive Denji's mindset is because as his life goes on, this will only become a living hell if he keeps trapping himself inside the same unhealthy loop. He cannot keep losing family after family and act like that is a normal or sustainable way to live.

And this is why It's important that we understand that not every trauma builds people up. Some trauma breaks people down even more, sometimes to the point where they cannot escape it on their own. You can see that in real life too. People do not always "grow stronger" from suffering and sometimes suffering just damages them more and more.

My view is that the ending is saying Denji's trauma was not necessary. It shows a world where Denji is no longer hunted and sought out because he is Chainsaw Man. He is not being forced to exist as a weapon or a target. He is just Denji, his own person, finally able to make decisions without Chainsaw Man constantly dragging him back into violence. And what matters is that it took Chainsaw Man himself to show him that.
Click to expand...
-cooly stepping in outta nowhere- Part of why Pochita made that choice in the ending is also because Denji having "the crappiest but best kind of brain" meant that no matter how much worse Denji's life would get by being tied to Chainsaw Man, he would still keep going and keep suffering through worse and worse tragedies, so while Pochita might have had his dream of a hug granted, Denji would never have the normal life and human connections he always wanted.

I've seen a ton of the slander say Pochita was saying Denji was better in his shitty circumstances, or some 'deeper analysis' saying Pochita is saying Denji failed as a protagonist, but the whole point of that scene is Pochita apologizing to Denji, all the tragedies that fell upon him were BECAUSE he became Chainsaw Man, and Denji would never have abandoned Pochita even if it objectively would have made his life better on all fronts.
 
GunshyFever said:
This is actually one of the more reasonable arguments I have seen and I understand where you are coming from. But I think the issue is that this frames Denji's trauma as if the story is saying "Because this horrible thing happened to him, he became stronger so maybe it was necessary". I do not think that is what the story is saying at all. In fact we are shown the opposite.

Denji's life as Chainsaw Man traps him in a constant cycle of violence. He wants multiple things at once. He wants to live a normal life, have a family and still be Chainsaw Man. But the problem is that he cannot truly have that normal life while remaining tied to Chainsaw Man, because that identity constantly brings danger and death to the people around him. That is why he keeps losing people again and again. Instead of being able to choose the person he loves and protect a normal life, Denji keeps choosing Chainsaw Man or being dragged back into Chainsaw Man and then he loses the people he was trying to hold onto. Nayuta is the clearest example of that. He wanted both lives, but the Chainsaw Man side of his life made it impossible for him to protect the normal one.

So to me, the story is not saying Denji's trauma made him better. It is showing that his relationship with Chainsaw Man became unhealthy. It became something he clung to because it gave him attention and purpose then validation and a reason to keep going.
fL0TCl5.png
0Vs78GB.png

- Denji choosing Chainsaw man over Nayuta's life.
But at the same time it was also the thing destroying his chance at the normal life he always wanted. We see this in early Part 2.
KiPQMbS.png
XzSQQ1m.png
hEUEPkg.png

That is why I do not fully agree with the "Denji lost agency" argument. I get the concern, but Denji's so called choices throughout Part 2 were not exactly healthy free choices either. A lot of them came from trauma and obsession as well as his need to be Chainsaw Man because he did not know who he was without it. Removing Chainsaw Man from that equation is not just taking away his agency but also gives Denji the chance to become his own person without being trapped by that identity forever.

Does this look like a person who is healing from his trauma in a healthy fashion?
aRyuHSb.png
Wb3UfTB.png
ACuCU3p.png
URL]

Denji says he will find another family. He says he can make a perpetual motion machine. That is exactly the problem he is having. He is trying to brute force his way through loss by repeating the same cycle again. Lose family, find another one. Lose that family, find another one. Keep moving, keep suffering and keep pretending it is fine.

And guess what the very concept of Aging responds with:
gStjJR9.png

This is symbolic in the fact that the concept of getting older itself finds Denji's idea stupid, pointing out how clearly self destructive Denji's mindset is because as his life goes on, this will only become a living hell if he keeps trapping himself inside the same unhealthy loop. He cannot keep losing family after family and act like that is a normal or sustainable way to live.

And this is why It's important that we understand that not every trauma builds people up. Some trauma breaks people down even more, sometimes to the point where they cannot escape it on their own. You can see that in real life too. People do not always "grow stronger" from suffering and sometimes suffering just damages them more and more.

My view is that the ending is saying Denji's trauma was not necessary. It shows a world where Denji is no longer hunted and sought out because he is Chainsaw Man. He is not being forced to exist as a weapon or a target. He is just Denji, his own person, finally able to make decisions without Chainsaw Man constantly dragging him back into violence. And what matters is that it took Chainsaw Man himself to show him that.
Click to expand...
I thought the main issue was the it was all a dream ending that most people have a problem with.
 
Steve1775 said:
I thought the main issue was the it was all a dream ending that most people have a problem with.
Click to expand...
yea
GunshyFever said:
Sums up the minds of those who dog on the ending. To this day I have not had one constructive argument with someone who did not like the ending who was not disingenuous as ** or who could genuinely comprehend "Hey, I am reading a story about being better without something you hold dear, or else it will continue to take everything else away from you". That is actually a great concept and I see the point of it, yet no one gives jackshit just because Kobeni's ***** contract was not revealed or some dumb shit like, "Oh, I wanted Death to be the main antagonist of the story", not realizing that none of that shit was the point in the first place. It is just fan service that they yearn for.
Click to expand...
Ignore my tone, seems that this made past me very upset.
 
Don't ignore this as well, it's actually a magnificent point
IbukiDoujisGiantTail said:
-cooly stepping in outta nowhere- Part of why Pochita made that choice in the ending is also because Denji having "the crappiest but best kind of brain" meant that no matter how much worse Denji's life would get by being tied to Chainsaw Man, he would still keep going and keep suffering through worse and worse tragedies, so while Pochita might have had his dream of a hug granted, Denji would never have the normal life and human connections he always wanted.

I've seen a ton of the slander say Pochita was saying Denji was better in his shitty circumstances, or some 'deeper analysis' saying Pochita is saying Denji failed as a protagonist, but the whole point of that scene is Pochita apologizing to Denji, all the tragedies that fell upon him were BECAUSE he became Chainsaw Man, and Denji would never have abandoned Pochita even if it objectively would have made his life better on all fronts.
Click to expand...
 
GunshyFever said:
Don't ignore this as well, it's actually a magnificent point
Click to expand...
:giggle:

TBH I've never had a problem with 'reset' endings if only because I seem to be the only person (??) who understands that The Whole point Is That Its Different This Time, Its Not Actually A True Reset

plus people had been theorizing for ages about CSM being a timeloop style story and well. They were pretty darn close actually
 
IbukiDoujisGiantTail said:
plus people had been theorizing for ages about CSM being a timeloop style story and well. They were pretty darn close actually
Click to expand...
The only thing I could not really understand completely is Pochita being Denji's heart. I get the logistics behind it, such as Pochita only eating a small part of his body, like his heart, instead of eating his own head, which would be impossible, or his complete body to completely erase the concept of chainsaws from existence. In turn, that would mean only enough was erased for chainsaws to still exist, but for Pochita himself to no longer have existed, but remain as Denji's heart. There is symbolism here but I am conflicted.

What do you think about it?
 
GunshyFever said:
The only thing I could not really understand completely is Pochita being Denji's heart. I get the logistics behind it, such as Pochita only eating a small part of his body, like his heart, instead of eating his own head, which would be impossible, or his complete body to completely erase the concept of chainsaws from existence. In turn, that would mean only enough was erased for chainsaws to still exist, but for Pochita himself to no longer have existed, but remain as Denji's heart. There is symbolism here but I am conflicted.

What do you think about it?
Click to expand...
Well! -yap incoming- The logistics aside (tbh i think the Pochita heart really is just his true form, he's always been a funny little dog), The story has always put a whole lot on emphasis not just on Pochita as Denji's heart, but what 'Denji's Heart' is supposed to represent, and how a lot of the characters give their different answers.

It's brought up by Denji himself, in the panel where he's crying about how everyone wants Chainsaw Man, but no one wants Denji; Makima never even saw Denji, only his heart (Pochita). Conversely, Yoru wanted both, hating Chainsaw Man but actually loving Denji, characters like Reze and Asa actually did see Denji as his own person, but Reze empathized with him as a weapon while Asa actually saw the lonely child Denji was (Only character to go "Save me, Denji" vs "Save me, Chainsaw Man"). A lot of the conflicts in the story center around the separation between 'Denji' and 'Chainsaw Man', but when the characters make the comparison they miss out on something important: You can't actually separate the two. Pochita and Denji might be individuals but (red) Chainsaw Man is fully Denji, he can only become Chainsaw Man because Pochita gave it to him and became his heart so he could live.

It's part of why I think the ending is kind of a somber tragedy in some ways, because the story does end with Denji and Pochita being separated, Denji did indeed 'lose his heart', at least until he let go of the chainsaw (masterful subtle symbolism lmao) and Asa thanking him let Denji gain a new heart, which brought back Pochita because Pochita will always be Denji's heart. It's a little inelegant, but not bad imo.

There is also the symbolism of Denji's original heart being tied to his mother, given that he inherited his mothers heart disease (there are overarching themes of motherhood and parents in CSM), and Pochita taking that role is significant given that he is kind of a parent figure to Denji keeping him safe throughout his childhood, not to mention how Pochita's Black Chainsaw Man form in the transformation sequence also has Denji stranged by his guts in the style of an umbilical cord choking an infant (Once again a parents sins holding their child back, Pochita in Denji's life directly hurting Denji regardless of intention).

Themes And Such aside, both Makima and the Aging Devil bring up the concept that Pochita erasing so many things throughout history fundamentally altered humanity and associated Chainsaws with some kind of erasure of devils, so Pochia isn't specifically 'The Chainsaw Devil', they always refer to him as Chainsaw Man regardless of the form, rather chainsaws are the weapon it uses. Pochita doesn't represent "the fear of chainsaws" but "the fear of Something, that chainsaws are used for", kind of how theres both a Fire Devil and a Flamethrower Fiend. The Aging Devil in particular is an interesting piece of lore because in it's weird realm, when humans live for long enough, they become trees, and well. Guess what chainsaws can do. They're associated with cutting umbilical cords, and cutting trees.

Ultimately, Pochita's true devil identity is something to speculate, there's been answers like Birth or Life, etc, but Pochita as Denji's heart is fully because no one loves Denji like Pochita loves Denji.
 
Wow, you really know your stuff then, props. Earlier I was mentioning those who criticized Asa's character and asking if they knew anything about her purpose in the story. I do not want to keep you writing essays all day, but I am curious because your views honestly make more sense than any I have ever heard. Mine are broad but I imagine you could add alot that I would have ended up missing.
 
GunshyFever said:
Wow, you really know your stuff then, props. Earlier I was mentioning those who criticized Asa's character and asking if they knew anything about her purpose in the story. I do not want to keep you writing essays all day, but I am curious because your views honestly make more sense than any I have ever heard. Mine are broad but I imagine you could add alot that I would have ended up missing.
Click to expand...
nah no probs i love to yap about critical analysis its fun

Preamble: Asa is kind of weird to me in the sense that like. I kiiiiiiind of suspect a small bit of corporate meddling on Shonen Jumps part to bring Denji back so fully because Asa was genuinely a strong enough protagonist for the most part but in the penultimate stretch she did get lowkey shafted, plus any story themes aside I do think it was a bit clear that Fujimoto was getting tired of writing for CSM or at least didn't have quite the same passion for it (fujimoto blink twice if shonen jump has your family hostage) but that aside:

Asa is very clearly meant to parallel Denji in a lot of his struggles, with the fundamental difference between them being that Asa didn't live in the same kind of poverty that shaped Denji and that Yoru progressively became more dominant (like if Pochita overtook Denji vs Denji being the main one). Asa if I had to boil her character down to one word would be "victim", given that she's the literal victim of War and that she has a ton more bad luck that Denji in a practical sense (she doesn't have his crappy brain). Kobeni is also a clear parallel to Denji, the what if of a Denji still perpetually stuck in a debt trap, while Asa is meant to be the Denji who couldnt keep going despite the tragedies. I do think she's a wonderfully complex (and ngl genuinely hilarious) character, and a big part of that comes from how Asa genuinely did influence Yoru.

I think people tend to ascribe a lot more... malice? to Yoru than I think actually exists, because the final arc brought up the relationships between Devils and Humans, and it was Asa loving Denji that made Yoru love Denji, not to mention how Yoru explicitly does care about Asa but ultimately can't understand her (the things you think are sins are nothing to a devil's eyes), this being the key difference between Asa-Yoru and Denji-Pochita, where Denji and Pochita do understand each other. Yoru was ruining the world to make War the most powerful fear, but that world exists not for Yoru, but Yoru and Asa, which Asa did not want.

Asa thinks she's a bad person for letting her abusive father die, and her intentional tripping became a bad habit because of that, her "bad luck" has always been her guilt holding her back, until she found someone she could genuinely connect to in Denji. Even if she had her role as the protagonist taken within the final stretch, I don't think she's any less important for it. This is because the Themes And Such manga isn't a Battle Shonen manga (<- 99% of the reason I think people hated the end btw).

Asa's ultimate goal by the final arc was her declaration that she would make Denji happy no matter what even if the entire world conspired against Denji, and going onto the final chapter... She did indeed do that. Denji saved Asa, Asa made Denji regain his heart. There's certainly things you can criticize about the writing, but as far as what her character ultimately intended to do? I think Fujimoto capped it well enough.
 
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