Alright stepping in for Gunshy because they have important stuff to worry about tomorrow.
You were the one who said Primals having low durability would be a huge plothole
That's not Falling's real body, it's a bunch of corpses wrapped up around a totem-pole-chess-piece-thingy of Falling.
The fact that it's there at all is wrong, it's justified by scaling her above Gun Devil but she 1) only scales above Gun Devil via a statement and 2) Devils don't outstat inferior Devils especially not in every category. Eternity has been defeated multiple times now and clearly not a top tier Devil but can create infinitely large Pocket dimension, doesnt mean we can give that to every Devil who scales above him.
1). We don't know it's infinitely big, 2). Hax and Physical Stats are separate things, especially when it's Creation Hax, 3). You can't just say it's "Only a statement" as if the Verse itself doesn't treat Primals like they're- to quote a wise man- "
The Kings of F*ck-Shit Mountain."
Nor, for the same reasons, can we give Gun Devil dura to every stronger Devil otherwise Makima would have Town Level+ dura. And yes i just checked her profile and saw she has City Level+ dura, im speechless.
You missed a [Block] there.
Every Devil has special abilties, you need to specify.
I've said this before will say this again, you cant universally fearscale. Fear scaling is first of all, EXTREMELY subjective and secondly, Fears clearly dont set lower or upper bounds for Devils, and they can exceed or underperform their expected fear by leaps and bounds.
Consuming the flesh of stronger devils and Fear of the Devil as an individual rather than it's name are other variables.
A few examples of the top of my head; the Spider Devil should be one of the strongest Devils but was fodder-tier
Princi's only showings were against fodder and Darkness- she wasn't fodder she just didn't have a chance to shine. In addition, Spider is one of the few non-Primals that can create
gosh-darn portals between Earth and Hell.
the Octopus Devil should be closer to Bucky than Fox but was effective against the AGING DEVIL,
Didn't do anything besides catch it off guard, and even then it was already confused as to What The French Toast was going on thanks to Fumiko and Twomiko.
Primals have group statements that imply that - Death aside - they are around the same level of power, whereas in reality Aging should be magnitudes stronger by sheer fear scaling.
Bullshark- if anything it's the possible. Fear of the Dark is even more universal than Aging.
Hybrid scaling makes even less sense, Quanxi (the Bow Devil) could beat Strengthened WAR Devil, people fear war about 45000000x more than bows
Chainsaw Man ate World War One and Nazis, ridiculously nerfing Yoru to the point where she's afraid of being forgotten. Forget powerscaling, it's a plot point-
how did you miss that?!
so if that's all that determined Devil Strength Yoru would one-shot Quanxi even at 0.1% strength. Fear scaling can only be used for pure physical feats and even then very conservatively.
Quanxi is just built different, like Kishibe. Her Hybrid Form is strong because her Human form is strong.
In addition, people would be using crossbows more since guns are banned, as shown by the Devil Hunter Club member Furio (RIP).
Even the scaling example you use (Chainsaw Man vs Aging) makes no sense in a vacuum. In what world do people fear Chainsaws anywhere close to Aging?
In what world? Maybe in a world experiencing
THE CHAINSAW MAN ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE, AND ALSO BECAUSE BAREM LITERALLY SAID SO.
Again, not even powerscaling,
that is plot point. How did you miss that?!
War Devil is a fiend + a horseman devil, applying everything that happens to War to the entire verse is nonsense imo.
1). It's not confirmed she's a Fiend, and 2). Horseman are still Devils. Fear Scaling shouldn't affect them in some special way different from all other devils.
There is no rule saying these things increase at the same level, do you think Makima, despite being stronger than the Gun Devil
She's not physically stronger than the Gun Devil, she just had a butt-ton of contracts that let her wreck it thanks to her position in Public Safety, and this position uniquely gives her an insanely huge arsenal of other devils to control.
and more FEARED ("History of humanity is fearing Makima bla bla bla) is capable of physically running across half of Japan in 0.01 seconds or whatever.
I know you weren't being serious, but even 100% Gun isn't that fast. Anywho, Makima's at least as fast as Hybrid Quanxi, who's faster than her human form,
who is canonically fast enough to leave sound in the dust per the Buddy Stories. So Makima is absolutely fast as all hedge.
You were right earlier about scaling Makima's reactions to 20% Gun's Bullet Speed is really weird since Gun was super far away, but that's something I'll tackle in the Speed CRT. (Which will probably be in the Summer at the rate things are going...)
Do you think the Gun Devil at 20% would get killed by a f-cking thug with a handgun and need a revival via contract (unless you believe Makima is City Level+ dura like the profile says despite Part 1 blatanly disagreeing with it). Devils with less fear are allowed to be superior in some physical aspects.
Makima's physicals are nowhere near Gun's, and again bullets make no sense in Chainsaw Man.
And they are allowed to be superior, but unless there's specifically other stat boosters at play like gunflesh, those superior aspects could only be hax based.
I agree she gains power, but the problem is you try to quantify this power increase as a congrous increase in all physical abilities which there is not only little evidence for but actually evidence directly contradicting it, like everything i just mentioned + Denji, who was fear-buffed, still having TRASH-TIER dura and being able to be amputated by human doctors with little hand saws
That was Human-form Denji, Fear Scaling doesn't apply to Hybrid's normal states, because it affects Devils.
while War, with the same fear-buff got a god-tier Durability upgrade allowing not even Yoshida who is superhuman to cut War. I could name more but im trying to reply asap cuz its midnight and i kinda need to go to bed lol
Yeah if you slept you might realize the mistakes you made.
Instead of some devils getting 0 dura and gaining 30 strength like Falling Devil. (causes gravity waves across the earth, guns hurt it) Or Eternity Devil (can make an infinitely large room. Pre-training Denji can cut it eternally (pun intended) without it having the slighest way of fighting back or having durability of resisting an attack.
Both of those are Hax vs. Physical Stats, and again we don't know if the Aquarium was infinitely big.
Or vice versa Zombie Devil can be extremely durable and hard to kill, but clearly doesnt gain much speed (if linear fear scaling worked the way you said for speed specifically, Zombie Devil (not the Zombie minions, but the main body) should be perception blitzing SoS Denji but he had no shot of dodging him and couldnt fight, meanwhile the Bat Devil is much faster and had a stronger main body.
Zombie honestly doesn't make sense, as the Zombies it makes simultaneously are fodder to initial Hybrid Denji and Fiend Power, yet can stall Graveyard Pochita longer than 5 Weapon Humans can, and tear apart Blood Devil Power in a
smaller group than what Fiend Power engaged.
And there is no universe in which Bats are feared more than Zombies.
Bats are real, Zombies aren't.
No, this confirms that it can happen. I mean we are all aware of that example, but like i said (borrowing Elaj's quote again) Devils are not bags of powers, there are unique rules governing each of them. Apart from the counter example ive named (Denji same fear buff; no dura increase)
Which again, doesn't apply because that was Human Denji.
you are assuming every Devil has the same distribution of stats that the fear scaling gives them. Whereas its entirely possible to have OFFENSIVE Devils (Gun Devil, Eternity Devil, CSM, Primals, Hybrids) who are reasonably easy to hurt but have MASSIVELY powerful attacks and DEFENSIVE Devils (Santa Claus. Hell Devil, Reze (she survives self-detonations), Octopus Devil, Zombie Devil) who dont blow up the entire city they're fighting in but are extremely hard to kill, i would assume Tank Devil will be equally as strong defensively as Gun Devil offensively, but that remains to be seen. Other than the obvious fact that Devils have physical specialities; There is non-fear scaling related variance in speed such as Quanxi being a frail speed-monster and Zombie Devil being very slow but also difficult to kill.
If Quanxi was "frail" she would literally have blown her leg off kicking Yoru. Much like bullets, falls don't make sense in Chainsaw Man either, and you can't scale based off of them. Yoru actually shows this best-
1). Yoru dropped from the 6th floor of her apartment building with the bigass Room 606 sword, landed on one foot, and was fine.
2). Quanxi fell like 3 floors tops carrying Denji, Nayuta, and Fumiko, and her legs snapped like twigs.
3). Quanxi still took out Yoru with a kick.
According to linear fear scaling, Zombie Devils main body should outstat Quanxi in strength and speed. When in reality, we see Zombie Devils main body has less-than-human level speed and Quanxi is supersonic minimum.
No, because Zombies haven't been killing people from a distance for thousands of years.
And also linear fear scaling doesnt explain why Quanxi is so fast and strong (which can only really be due to fear scaling since we both agree its the driving force behind devil powers) but at the same time paper-frail, Falling has the excuse of a weakened body, Quanxi doesnt. Since you say these abilities all increase at the same rate, because thats what happened one (1) time with War Devil, Quanxi should also have superhuman dura to match her monster strength and speed.
No, nobody says that. Quanxi's like Kishibe but on steroids, where her human body is just physically built different.
Not to mention other shit muddling the pool like eating strong Devils (or Gun Devil parts), people in the vicinity fearing them (which extremely powers up Devils as seen in Eternity Devils case), how long since a Devil came back from hell (hence why Nayuta was very weak despite having the same fear as namesake as Makima) unique Devil powers gaining unique power ups instead of stat buffs and so on.
Most fear of the Control Devil was fear of Makima as an individual (
MAKIMA IS LISTENING), rather than fear of Control. When Makima died, that went away.
Im fine saying Primals are at the top, because they have been stated to be the absolute tippy top of Devils who have never died, and there are no group of Devils above them (unless you count Death who is also a Primal fear). But not fine saying that they are because of how powerful their fears are. If i were to start fear scaling i would think Aging one-shots Darkness. Maybe 1/5 adults fears Darkness. Every single person, even people not afraid of death, fear and detest aging. The mere fact that Primals are equal and fear of Fire, Darkness, Falling, Aging, is treated as the same tier of fear with Death being the only one ever stated to be stronger is nonsense.
No, even if it's not to phobia levels, Humans in general are instinctually afraid of the dark because we don't have night vision.
I get that we have to do this to some extent to figure out certain Devils but i also would throw it out at the first opportunity; for example if Octopus Devil is so strong that Yoshida who has no other known Devil contracts is stated stronger than Kishibe and regarded as dangerous by Pochita (spitting him out) and could literally be used against a Primal successfully i would not conclude that, "Oh, people must be ******* terrified of Octopus somewhere" but its just stronger than its supposed to be, same reason Spider Devil who should genuinely be near Primal tier (5% of the population has arachnophobia, for reference thats larger than Japans population) is used as a walking Makima portal, i dont think Arachnophobia doesnt exist, its just a case of a Devil being a jobber despite having a very strong name. Even the main character of the show is based on a construction tool that would be lucky to have a chance against the Car Devil, but is strong enough in its True form to fight Horsemen & Primals.
It's literally explained why Pochita's so strong.
He's The Devil That All Devils Fear. (Because without even factoring in strength, he can delete concepts.)
For the
third time, that's not even powerscaling,
it is a flip-fracking Plot Point.
How did you miss that?!
Ive named dozens of cases of this happening. Octopus Devil, Spider Devil, Zombie Devil are my three favorite examples as fears which have an internal contradiction, not to the power system but to how much they are feared. I suppose its remotely possible Spider and Zombie have hidden special powers that we've never seen, but Octopus has absolutely no reason at all to be even 10% as strong as it is. Even the fact it was ******* up Santa puppets is beyond explaining, let alone its Part 2 feats or the fact it did most of its fears WHILE BEING ON A RESTRICTED CONTRACT with Yoshida not even summoning the whole Devil just like with Fox devil.
Octopus and Yoshida are strong and why is a mystery. But that's a them specific thing.
It is not a reasonable conclusion because it has been disproven already, setting aside Falling who is weakened;
- Aging has no physical feats to speak of and in fact has anti-feats. The guy got hit by octopus devil TWICE.
Never took any damage from it.
He is entirely incapable of physically subduing Pochita
That's not an Anti-Feat when
Pochita was physically as strong as Aging was. See above image.
despite the fact hes not only a Primal but by fear scaling should be the second-strongest Primal.
That bit's your headcanon.
When he was pulled into his world where no Devil abilities worked, he just gave up, if Aging had 1% of Pochitas strength and speed (which we agree are physical buffs dependant on fear and NOT active Devils abilities), he would have blitzed and killed everyone in the Timeless realm in 0.01 seconds.
No, "Devil Powers" that Aging's World nullifies evidently include a devil's physical stats, which can best be seen in Yoshida being able to alley-oop Asa/Yoru into a handshake in Aging's World, despite how she ROFL-blitzes him.
Even the GG bullet which youd expect him to be able to dodge or tank as a primal, he had to disable via force field and hax. He needed hax both to survive it and to destroy the attack.
1). Aging would've had to have been fast enough to use its time stomp in order stop the bullet.
2). Aging literally stated that it wouldn't kill it, and was insulted Yoru thought it could.
3). Aging uses
ぼく (boku) as its personal pronoun, which can indicate a tomboy or gender non-conforming person in anime. It being called "sir" is a translation thing, it was a gender-neutral honorific in Japanese.
-Darkness has a much, much better physical showing for sure. But he needed a force field to block Denji. This is the equivalent of Gun Devil needing a force field to block Aki throwing a stone at him.
"Needed" is a strong word.
Now i understand you contest that Gun Devil blocked this, so if we disregard that, you know who else pushed him? Makima. A non-Primal. Makima who we just said "is fully outscaled as a lower-tier devil in every relevant category." was able to SURVIVE his attacks, and then make him BLEED, and then teleport the ** out of there. And she did this while fighting in Darkness. This is physically impossible if the Darkness Devil is faster, stronger more durable than her. And not only by slight amounts but by significant amounts given that she is a non-Primal. Makima could not have possibly put up that fight, with any amount of hax, in fact she shouldnt even be able to perceive him, if he is meant to be Magnitudes faster than 100% Gun Devil who was hopping around the World at Hypersonic+ speed he should be approaching Relativistic speed. We even KNOW Makima isnt exactly much faster than the Gun Devil because she spotted him miles away and still got killed once and had to rely on her hax to both survive that attack and kill Gun Devil instead of physically outmuscling him. So how the ** would she even be able to track let alone hurt Darkness Devil?
Plot Armor.
With Hax? But didnt you say
- This confirms that a devil’s strength across multiple attributes like durability, speed, and ability potency, scales in direct proportion to the level of fear they have.
So she should also have been completely gapped in hax.
1). There's other factors besides fear at play there. Makima has literally the entirety of Public Safety's Devil collection at her possible disposal, so it's not unthinkable she could cobble together some bullshit that could hurt Darkness with her dozens to hundreds of hax options. Hilariously, based on the gesture and the effect, it might've been an ultra-ultra souped-up Mold Devil.
2). More importantly- Plot Armor.
-Falling like i said, wont talk about much since she is nerfed, but saying that just because she is nerfed - or because she is using human bodies - she has human-tier durability doesnt sit right with me. Every Primal Devil is made up of human parts.
Looking like human body parts and actually being human body parts are two different things.
Hell Death Devil literally looks human and according to linear fear-scaling which you believe in, should be built like an armored tank
Human-appearing devils are based on how they think- this was explained with Angel and Princi/Spider. Looking human is not the same as being made of human corpses.
and War Devil has shown that its possible for human skin to get buffed by Devil abilties into superhuman realms. The whole quote "This confirms that a devil’s strength. etc." was based on War Devil feat so why does Falling, who even in her Weakened form is feared more than War, not have this dura? And also why does she still have the AP to cause worldwide gravitational waves if she is in this super nerfed state (again i agree shes nerfed, but it was never quantified how much). To me it seems like this belief was adopted retroactively to explain her bottom-tier durability. (which i explain because fear-scaling isnt linear so she is a regen merchant while having global AP)
I don't even know what this paragraph is supposed to be about.
But as i said, she is nerfed so she, even with linear fear-scaling, at least has an excuse for being hurt by non-Primal attacks. Aging and Darkness have no reason not to be blitzing the entire verse while no selling any attack, including Makima's hax since they would have hax of a higher-order to counteract it.
Darkness lost due to plot, and Aging literally wanted to be eaten by Pochita. Yoshida already pointed out that Aging could've just killed them all.
- Post Training Pre-Weakening Denji has
Large Building level+ AP. Due to a verified and calced feat during the International Assassin Arc.
-Post-Weakening Denji (WHO SHOULD BE OBVIOUSLY WEAKER) has
Building level AP all the way to the very end of Part 1, where his AP jumps one Magnitude higher than PRE-WEAKENING; with
City Block level+ with Power's Blood Chainsaw (Able to
slice into Makima).
The explanation given here supposedly is that making the Chainsaw from Powers blood got his Chainsaw to City Block level+ but if we read the manga, all Denji said Power's blood did is decrease the effect of her healing. And also, Pochita is not using that Chainsaw and still slashing Makima up like shes made out of paper (which she is). And not only that, maybe you can say the Chainsaws still have enough AP to hit her.
Yeah, it's also a weapon made by Blood Devil Power, who tore Makima apart with her blood weapons ten chapters ago. That's not a jump in logic, that's a single footstep.
And Graveyard Pochita's chainsaws are still strong enough to one-shot Hybrid Quanxi. I don't understand why you think that's absurd that it can also cut Makima.
Tell me how the **** he prepares and eats Makima's flesh if its supposed to have CITY BLOCK LEVEL DURA?
With the chainsaw. Literally the last panel of Makima's face has Denji taking a chainsaw to it.
He would need some new technology to cook that ******* steak that he made. And does Denjis fork have City Block level AP? Its not like dead Devil parts lose their Devil traits (t. Gun Devil) so the fact that Makima would be dead is irrelevant, also technically she didnt die because she needed to be digested to be fully erased.
1). Durability isn't heat resistance, 2). Blood Devil Power tenderized the Hell outta her, 3).
Rule of Symbolism.
So yeah, Makima at City Level Dura makes no sense. Even if we ignore the thugs, which i did since you said that guns make no sense in CSM which i agree with.
Every single punch Makima throws that blasts a hole through Graveyard Pochita (which is all of them), which includes a punch that actually managed to break one of his goddamn chainsaws, is counter-evidence to that.
If Makima has only
Human level durability, then Graveyard Pochita has
Below Human level AP for not being able to hurt her when he kicked her in the groin.
But now you are claiming, even though this goes against linear fear-scaling, that Makima can have magnitudes higher hax without matching Gun Devil in durability. But are unwilling to apply the same logic to Primals, despite the fact that they clearly dont have top tier durability and are easily harmed relative to how strong they are (Regen merchants).
I have no idea what point this is even trying to make.
Name one Quanxi durability feat. The profile doesn't even have one (its using her blocking one attack from Graveyard Pochita to scale her dura to City Block level, which is not even her tanking an attack, shes blocking it with superhuman strength which nobody said she didnt have), so you'd be making a valuable contribution here.
Literally every time she swings a sword and her arms don't fly off is a durability feat. Or her incapacitating Yoru and her legs don't fly off. Stonewall all you like (actually please don't and save both of us some time), but you simply cannot have physical AP that is leagues higher than physical Dura on this Wiki, assuming that you're nor blowing off limbs with each hit.
Also by this logic
Pingsti has City-Block+ AP, which directly contradicts the idea that physical stats scale linear with fears and also just makes no sense at all whatsoever. Even ignoring the City-Block+ AP short fall and City-Block+ AP gun at which point we are just ignoring the entire manga lol
That is a doll made by Darkness-Enhanced Santa, which were specifically stated to be empowered.
Do you think Hybrid Denji's Human level for getting stabbed by dolls made from humans?
Alright that was a lot. Its 2:30 am so im gonna take a nap, ill respond sometime tomorrow to your response then. Good night
I know it wasn't the intention, but Holy Finland that emoji comes off as condescending. If I never have to respond to an argument that long again, it'll be too soon.
