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Introduction
Chainsaw Man is a decently popular verse with a good number of profiles and a certain structure of scaling. However, some of the scaling we currently use is simply wrong, invalidated or does not make sense. This thread is meant to address these issues. Here we will review several things which I will list below:
Currently Primal Devils are physically scaling above Yoru's Gun Goddess with a "possibly" rating, a special contract regarding the Gun Devil which is capable of firing intercontinental bullets that generate incredibly high KE and, once they land, obliterate the target and cause complete devastation to the surrounding area.
First you the reader need to understand who and what a Primal Devil is. This type of devil is discussed within the General Devil Physiology page, so I will copy that information here so that you are informed and we can move forward.
It is shown that the Gun Goddess completely obliterates Pochita. Currently the scaling for the Aging Devil comes from the fact that Yoru states that her strength is no match for the Aging Devil and the Aging Devil himself is surprised that Yoru thought this attack could even kill him. All of this can be explained by different factors.
2. Katana Man Public Safety suit issues.
Within the verse's scaling lies the durability of Public Safety suits, specifically the jackets and pants which are canonically stated to be notably sturdy. Certain characters like Katana Man using his sword draw dash struggle to do noticeable damage to these suits, where as weaker opponents like Pre-Training Chainsaw Man, are cut in half. However we run into several issues when taking into account characters scaling to the durability of these Public Safety suits which are shown to withstand forces of around 83.74 tons of TNT.
Katana Man, despite having a Part 1 and Part 2 key, realistically should only possess one since there is no noticeable improvement regarding him. His feats are separated between Part 1 and Part 2 because in Part 1 he is unable to slice through Public Safety suits, while in Part 2 he scales above characters who can do so. He is implied to kill multiple Pseudo Chainsaw Men who are capable of piercing through Public Safety suits. Katana Man himself can even break open a containment cell that was able to hold these Pseudo Chainsaw Men. He is also capable of bursting through the Tokyo Detention Center which is a containment facility where no devil brought in has ever escaped.
A key problem here is that Post Training Chainsaw Man's chainsaws which could pierce through public saftey suits, can easily be destroyed by Katana Man and vice versa while the same Katana Man could not break through Public Safety suits. However there is a solution to this.
The initial attack on Aki demonstrates that his chest area was targeted but the suit prevented him from being split in half. We can use simple physics to explain this. Katana Man failing to split Aki in half is not inconsistent with him breaking Denji's chainsaws. A full body slash requires continuous penetration through layered material of the Public Safety jacket while damaging Denji's chainsaws only requires damaging a small point where the force of the impact is concentrated.
However, it is also important to mention a key line of scaling that has been severely overlooked. Chainsaw Man in his Post-Weakening key was able to shred through the tentacles of an Awakened Yuko, who could slash Devil Hunter suits in half. He was capable of cutting through them and killing her without much effort. Such superiority should justify upscaling his chainsaws to 8-A (100 Tons of TNT). There is also scaling regarding Post-Training Chainsaw Man and Santa Claus that has been considered an outlier, which involves her nighttime variant being vastly stronger than Denji to the point that he could not scale. For context, after making a contract with the Darkness Devil, Santa Claus is given a portion of its flesh. This transforms her into a powerful devil whose strength increases with humanity's fear of darkness. During the daytime, Denji is capable of shredding through her. However, when nighttime arrives her power increases, she gains a more nightmarish appearance, and she is able to speed blitz Post-Training Chainsaw Man. She also goes from being blitzed and overwhelmed by a transformed Quanxi to effortlessly catching her arrows. This is just to demonstrate the level of her power increase.
However, scaling Post-Training Chainsaw Man can be contextualized within the scaling spectrum by back scaling Post-Training Chainsaw Man from Santa Claus to the Snake Devil strength of 443 Tons of TNT. This is because he takes comparable damage from nighttime Santa Claus as he does from her daytime version. For the nighttime version, although Denji sets himself on fire to weaken Santa Claus, that process takes time. We see her regeneration functioning normally at first and then slowing down over time. Because of this, this version of Santa Claus should not be treated as significantly weaker than her nighttime version. Therefore, as mentioned, his physicals should backscale from Santa Claus to the Snake Devil's level of strength, and his chainsaws should reasonably scale to nighttime Santa Claus at around 550 Tons of TNT. This is consistent, as Denji, who was previously effortlessly cutting through daytime Santa Claus's limbs, struggles to deal the same level of damage to her nighttime version. For example, he struggles to cut off her head or limbs and can only deal serious damage when pushing his chainsaws forward in a piercing motion, which is more effective than standard slashing.
The main point is that Post-Training Chainsaw Man still scales to nighttime Santa Claus, as the reduction in damage output is shown clearly and does not qualify as an outlier. This is also consistent with how durability works in Chainsaw Man, where significantly stronger blunt force attacks can create large wounds such as holes in the body. When meaningful damage is dealt it is clearly shown, such as Chainsaw Man surviving the Bat Devil's blast but being left in poor condition.
This results in a clean scaling chain:
I would also like to mention that during discussions on Reze's scaling it was decided that her explosions would not scale to Public Safety suits due to her shown inability to damage them. However I will argue that this is incorrect. Please see the spoiler below for why.
In conclusion, PS Devil Hunter suits should be upgraded, and characters who scale to them should be affected as well. The scaling should end up looking something like this.
3. Removal and replacement of the Mt. Elbrus Feat.
Recently the Mount Elbrus feat which scaled to 28% of the Gun Devil was recalculated to 35.8893 tons of TNT which is City Block level and no longer Town level. With this in mind any attacks or characters that scale to or from this should now scale to the 20% Gun Devil's kinetic energy which is 21.67 kilotons of TNT. From this 28% would be 30.39 kilotons of TNT and 100% would be 108.35 kilotons of TNT.
That is all for now. I will cover more content soon. I did not want to clog this CRT.
Agree: (3:8) @Anonymous_Learner (comment), @OhMrKnight (comment), @Machmatej (comment), @Saqphire (comment), @Epiccheev (comment), @Bruh (comment), @Damage3245 (comment), @Syncornize (comment), @Qawsedf234 (comment), @IbukiDoujisGiantTail (comment), @Nierre (comment)
Disagree: (0:0)
Neutral: (0:0)
Chainsaw Man is a decently popular verse with a good number of profiles and a certain structure of scaling. However, some of the scaling we currently use is simply wrong, invalidated or does not make sense. This thread is meant to address these issues. Here we will review several things which I will list below:
- Primal Devils should not physically scale to the Gun Goddess.
- Katana Man Public Safety suit issues.
- Removal and replacement of the Mt. Elbrus Feat.
- Fear Scaling (As Devils embodying the fear of a concept, the more feared they are, the more powerful they become. Even a relatively minor boost in fear can immensely boost a Devil's strength and the effects of their abilities. Due to this, once a Devil is more feared than another Devil, their AP and Speed surpass that of the said Devil. However, as a Devil's special abilities can be completely disproportionate to their body's strength, neither the physicals nor special abilities of a more feared Devil automatically scale above the special abilities of a less feared Devil.)
- Empowerment Through Fear (One core trait of devils that has been repeatedly stated throughout the series is that; the more feared the concept that the devil embodies, the more powerful they become. This doesn't just mean fearing the concept itself, fearing mental imagery related to the concept also counts. For example, a person may not fear a car by itself but fearing being run over and dying by a car would still count, and hence empower the Car Devil)
Currently Primal Devils are physically scaling above Yoru's Gun Goddess with a "possibly" rating, a special contract regarding the Gun Devil which is capable of firing intercontinental bullets that generate incredibly high KE and, once they land, obliterate the target and cause complete devastation to the surrounding area.
First you the reader need to understand who and what a Primal Devil is. This type of devil is discussed within the General Devil Physiology page, so I will copy that information here so that you are informed and we can move forward.
- A special class of devils known as the Primal Fears (根源的こんげんてき恐きょう怖ふ Kongen-teki Kyōfu) are devils that have likely existed when humans first came to be, embodying the most instinctual fears ingrained within the human psyche; awakened the moment human beings first gain awareness. These devils have been described as "transcendent" compared to normal devils and have never experienced true death before due to their immerse power.
It is shown that the Gun Goddess completely obliterates Pochita. Currently the scaling for the Aging Devil comes from the fact that Yoru states that her strength is no match for the Aging Devil and the Aging Devil himself is surprised that Yoru thought this attack could even kill him. All of this can be explained by different factors.
- When Yoru refers to "strength" she is obviously not referring to physical strength in any manner, but rather the power of their concepts and attacks. In the scene where Yoru makes that statement she is trapped in Aging's World, a separate reality from what is considered the real world. In this space all devil abilities and powers are nullified, and this restriction applies even to the Aging Devil themselves. Therefore Yoru's statement refers to the fact that she is weaker in terms of fear empowerment compared to the Aging Devil. This means her abilities succumb to the rules of his reality, and only devils with stronger concepts through fear empowerment than the Aging Devil would be able to break out of this pocket dimension. Which just means Aging has a more powerful concept and therefore has more powerful attacks with his AP based abilities.
- The Aging Devil addresses the Gun Goddess during time stop and remarks in disbelief that Yoru thinks the attack could kill him. This is because of the regenerative abilities of Primal Devils, who as stated in the General Devil Physiology page are impossible to kill or stopped by any means humanity currently possesses. This has been primarily shown through their extraordinary regenerative abilities. They can restore themselves back to their original state even after being torn to shreds, and they do not need to consume blood to do so almost instantly.
2. Katana Man Public Safety suit issues.
Within the verse's scaling lies the durability of Public Safety suits, specifically the jackets and pants which are canonically stated to be notably sturdy. Certain characters like Katana Man using his sword draw dash struggle to do noticeable damage to these suits, where as weaker opponents like Pre-Training Chainsaw Man, are cut in half. However we run into several issues when taking into account characters scaling to the durability of these Public Safety suits which are shown to withstand forces of around 83.74 tons of TNT.
Katana Man, despite having a Part 1 and Part 2 key, realistically should only possess one since there is no noticeable improvement regarding him. His feats are separated between Part 1 and Part 2 because in Part 1 he is unable to slice through Public Safety suits, while in Part 2 he scales above characters who can do so. He is implied to kill multiple Pseudo Chainsaw Men who are capable of piercing through Public Safety suits. Katana Man himself can even break open a containment cell that was able to hold these Pseudo Chainsaw Men. He is also capable of bursting through the Tokyo Detention Center which is a containment facility where no devil brought in has ever escaped.
A key problem here is that Post Training Chainsaw Man's chainsaws which could pierce through public saftey suits, can easily be destroyed by Katana Man and vice versa while the same Katana Man could not break through Public Safety suits. However there is a solution to this.
The initial attack on Aki demonstrates that his chest area was targeted but the suit prevented him from being split in half. We can use simple physics to explain this. Katana Man failing to split Aki in half is not inconsistent with him breaking Denji's chainsaws. A full body slash requires continuous penetration through layered material of the Public Safety jacket while damaging Denji's chainsaws only requires damaging a small point where the force of the impact is concentrated.
However, it is also important to mention a key line of scaling that has been severely overlooked. Chainsaw Man in his Post-Weakening key was able to shred through the tentacles of an Awakened Yuko, who could slash Devil Hunter suits in half. He was capable of cutting through them and killing her without much effort. Such superiority should justify upscaling his chainsaws to 8-A (100 Tons of TNT). There is also scaling regarding Post-Training Chainsaw Man and Santa Claus that has been considered an outlier, which involves her nighttime variant being vastly stronger than Denji to the point that he could not scale. For context, after making a contract with the Darkness Devil, Santa Claus is given a portion of its flesh. This transforms her into a powerful devil whose strength increases with humanity's fear of darkness. During the daytime, Denji is capable of shredding through her. However, when nighttime arrives her power increases, she gains a more nightmarish appearance, and she is able to speed blitz Post-Training Chainsaw Man. She also goes from being blitzed and overwhelmed by a transformed Quanxi to effortlessly catching her arrows. This is just to demonstrate the level of her power increase.
However, scaling Post-Training Chainsaw Man can be contextualized within the scaling spectrum by back scaling Post-Training Chainsaw Man from Santa Claus to the Snake Devil strength of 443 Tons of TNT. This is because he takes comparable damage from nighttime Santa Claus as he does from her daytime version. For the nighttime version, although Denji sets himself on fire to weaken Santa Claus, that process takes time. We see her regeneration functioning normally at first and then slowing down over time. Because of this, this version of Santa Claus should not be treated as significantly weaker than her nighttime version. Therefore, as mentioned, his physicals should backscale from Santa Claus to the Snake Devil's level of strength, and his chainsaws should reasonably scale to nighttime Santa Claus at around 550 Tons of TNT. This is consistent, as Denji, who was previously effortlessly cutting through daytime Santa Claus's limbs, struggles to deal the same level of damage to her nighttime version. For example, he struggles to cut off her head or limbs and can only deal serious damage when pushing his chainsaws forward in a piercing motion, which is more effective than standard slashing.
The main point is that Post-Training Chainsaw Man still scales to nighttime Santa Claus, as the reduction in damage output is shown clearly and does not qualify as an outlier. This is also consistent with how durability works in Chainsaw Man, where significantly stronger blunt force attacks can create large wounds such as holes in the body. When meaningful damage is dealt it is clearly shown, such as Chainsaw Man surviving the Bat Devil's blast but being left in poor condition.
This results in a clean scaling chain:
This is much more consistent with the level of damage shown and is far less optimistic.
I would also like to mention that during discussions on Reze's scaling it was decided that her explosions would not scale to Public Safety suits due to her shown inability to damage them. However I will argue that this is incorrect. Please see the spoiler below for why.
It is a common contention that during the Reze arc, Reze does not damage Public Safety suits with any of her attacks. However, I will argue that this is not the case.
First, it is important to note that at a baseline her explosions scale to Post-Training Chainsaw Man. This is enough to send him flying and create a large hole in his chest. His durability in this key is comparable to Night Time Santa Claus, who was able to send him flying with a strike.
This establishes that Reze's explosions are relative to Denji's durability and to Katana Man's chainsaws.
With stronger attacks, Reze is shown to deal even greater damage. For example, she breaks Denji's chainsaws after axe kicking him into a mound of gore, opening his stomach and causing his intestines to spill out. Another example is her self destruct, where she hugs Nomo, who is wearing a Public Safety suit. After the explosion, he is shown missing both his jacket and an arm. It was suggested that in later panels Nomo appears with his jacket intact, but this interpretation is unlikely. We are shown collateral damage affecting devil hunters who were further from the explosion, so it would not make sense for Nomo, who was at the epicenter, to remain unharmed and yet further from the explosion than the epicenter. The most reasonable conclusion using Occam's Razor is that the explosion destroyed the jacket and removed his arm.
Finally, there is the explosive spark, an attack Reze uses that vaporizes her target. This attack was used on Devil Hunters in the manga, but the angle did not clearly show damage to the Public Safety suits. However, the movie provides a close up which confirms frame by frame that the explosion also vaporizes the suit.
Based on this, Reze's attack potency scaling would be:
Post Training Chainsaw Man durability < Reze's explosions < Denji's chainsaws (which reduce damage taken) < Self destruct < Torpedoes < Explosive spark
First, it is important to note that at a baseline her explosions scale to Post-Training Chainsaw Man. This is enough to send him flying and create a large hole in his chest. His durability in this key is comparable to Night Time Santa Claus, who was able to send him flying with a strike.
This establishes that Reze's explosions are relative to Denji's durability and to Katana Man's chainsaws.
With stronger attacks, Reze is shown to deal even greater damage. For example, she breaks Denji's chainsaws after axe kicking him into a mound of gore, opening his stomach and causing his intestines to spill out. Another example is her self destruct, where she hugs Nomo, who is wearing a Public Safety suit. After the explosion, he is shown missing both his jacket and an arm. It was suggested that in later panels Nomo appears with his jacket intact, but this interpretation is unlikely. We are shown collateral damage affecting devil hunters who were further from the explosion, so it would not make sense for Nomo, who was at the epicenter, to remain unharmed and yet further from the explosion than the epicenter. The most reasonable conclusion using Occam's Razor is that the explosion destroyed the jacket and removed his arm.
Finally, there is the explosive spark, an attack Reze uses that vaporizes her target. This attack was used on Devil Hunters in the manga, but the angle did not clearly show damage to the Public Safety suits. However, the movie provides a close up which confirms frame by frame that the explosion also vaporizes the suit.
Based on this, Reze's attack potency scaling would be:
Post Training Chainsaw Man durability < Reze's explosions < Denji's chainsaws (which reduce damage taken) < Self destruct < Torpedoes < Explosive spark
3. Removal and replacement of the Mt. Elbrus Feat.
Recently the Mount Elbrus feat which scaled to 28% of the Gun Devil was recalculated to 35.8893 tons of TNT which is City Block level and no longer Town level. With this in mind any attacks or characters that scale to or from this should now scale to the 20% Gun Devil's kinetic energy which is 21.67 kilotons of TNT. From this 28% would be 30.39 kilotons of TNT and 100% would be 108.35 kilotons of TNT.
That is all for now. I will cover more content soon. I did not want to clog this CRT.
Agree: (3:8) @Anonymous_Learner (comment), @OhMrKnight (comment), @Machmatej (comment), @Saqphire (comment), @Epiccheev (comment), @Bruh (comment), @Damage3245 (comment), @Syncornize (comment), @Qawsedf234 (comment), @IbukiDoujisGiantTail (comment), @Nierre (comment)
Disagree: (0:0)
Neutral: (0:0)
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