Caulifla v. Present Zamasu

[LordTracer]

Except he was clearly shown to have been stronger. Pre-UIO1 SSJ2 Goku was on par with SSJ2 Caulifla. Post-UIO1 SSJ2 Goku was then shown to be slightly stronger than SSJ2 Caulifla (who possibly got a Zenkai earlier). LSSJ Kale was very clearly Super Saiyan Blue tier, and then LSSJ2 Kale was barely holding her own against Post-UIO1 SSG. Goku may have been stated to be fatigued, but that didn't stop him from handling Blue Kaioken x20. Goku being stronger wouldn't make the UIO2 amp smaller, UIO2's amp made his Blue surpass UIO1, which is a far larger boost than the one UIO1 gave him. UIO1 didn't give a massive boost, but it still definitely gave a boost.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It makes no sense, so I'll explain why properly.

The spirit bomb has a set level of power in the ToP because it was never used again. The spirit bomb should be 40x blue Goku pre UIO1 as it's stronger than the Kaioken (this is also evident in Z where the spirit bomb was stronger than 20x Kaoiken but fodder to ssj).

This makes UIO1 Goku at least 40x stronger than blue bare minimum. If Goku really got stronger than that means he got 50x stronger, because he's fighting an allegedly blue level opponent as an ssg. This already makes Goku stronger than the spirit bomb, which isn't true because ssj Kefla is supposed to be on that level.

Even if you say that the spirit bomb was 40x stronger than post UIO1 blue Goku, because it's definitely stronger than Kaoiken, than that means the UIO2 multiplier would be between 40-80 times. That's because ssj2 Kefla is twice as strong as the spirit bomb and initially stronger than UIO2. If that's the case then that means the spirit bomb is over 2,000x pre UIO1 blue Goku.

See what I mean? It makes more sense for UIO to grow as a multiplier, not shrink. Pre Tournament Calulifla is base Goku level as ssj2. Goku's simply holding back, because he does that to everyone.

 

[LordTracer]

You can't really quantify the Spirit Bomb. Especially not by comparing it to others, because they had vastly different sources of energy.

SSJ2 Caulifla is above base Goku level, no matter how you look at it. Pre-Zenkai v. Pre-UIO1, SSJ2 Caulifla was matching SSJ2 Goku. Post-Zenkai v. Post-UIO1, SSJ2 Caulifla was able to keep up and clash with SSJ2 Goku, although she was clearly inferior to him. She's above base Goku level.

The UIO multiplier did grow. UIO1 made God surpass Blue. UIO2 made Blue surpass UIO1. That's a much bigger multiplier than UIO1's.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ribrianne was matching base Goku, Bergamo was matching base Goku, he used blue against both of them. Just because someone looks like they're matching Goku doesn't mean they are. Pre UIO1 Caulifla is weaker than base Goku, post UIO1 Caulifla is equal to ssj2 Goku, it was stated more than once that she got stronger over the course of the fight. Ssj2 Caulifla literally kicked base Goku in the stomach FFS but it didn't one shot him. He was even able to momentarily blitz her even though ssj has superior speed. It's just evidence that Goku was holding back.

Quantifiable or not it still decreases the UIO amp. The spirit bomb was the key to unlocking UIO and an attack on that level worked twice. If Goku got so much stronger then a spirit bomb level attack wouldn't hurt as much as it did before. So why did Goku go UIO again despite being stronger, according to your logic?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

And about Vegeta, he one shot an on guard Monna. She was even questioning Vegeta, and looked like she was ready to fight but he one shot her, something ssj2 Cabba couldn't even do. Nb4 you say Vegeta was stronger than Goku base to base, it would've been 20 max at best because Vegeta would be Kaio ken level. Which is far from ssj2 level.

 

[LordTracer]

Ribrianne is arguably base Goku level anyways, Bergamo has the Crusher ability, which Goku was attempting to test when he went Blue against him. What exactly shows that Caulifla is weaker than base Goku? The only showing of Pre-Zenkai Caulifla against Pre-UIO1 Goku is her matching SSJ2 Goku. Caulifla getting stronger as the fight goes on explicitly debunks the notion of Goku holding back. She was at first slightly stronger than Post-UIO1 base Goku and then got stronger to the point that she nearly equaled Post-UIO1 SSJ2 Goku.

PIS. Whis in the same episode said it would be harder for Goku to unlock Ultra Instinct Omen a second time. And logically, SSJ Kefla should be superior to the Spirit Bomb if you backscale from her power as an SSJ2.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Kefla rivaled the spirit bomb, so she's likely superior but not by much. If she was 50x great than the spirit bomb then she wouldn't even be compared to it.

 

[LordTracer]

It's obviously not a massive difference, certainly not 50x, that's why the word rivaled was used. But SSJ Kefla should be considerably superior.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

And about Vegeta, he one shot an on guard Monna. She was even questioning Vegeta, and looked like she was ready to fight but he one shot her, something ssj2 Cabba couldn't even do. Nb4 you say Vegeta was stronger than Goku base to base, it would've been 20 max at best because Vegeta would be Kaio ken level. Which is far from ssj2 level.

Are you forgetting something?

 

[LordTracer]

I did not see that. Monna explicitly said Vegeta hit her with a cheap shot, and he didn't even do that much damage. And again, Caulifla is stronger than Cabba, so... not really a good comparison.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Lmao Caulifa isn't even that much stronger than Cabba because he said she's probably stronger, so they're still comparable.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

And why didn't Goku use Kaio ken against Kale?

 

[LordTracer]

Because he didn't need it? Kale isn't beyond Blue tier, she's just Blue tier. There was no reason for Goku to waste more stamina with the Kaioken.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

He was holding back. If she was just blue tier she wouldn't be tanking all his blows and he would've definitely Kaio ken. Plus I don't see them fighting equally.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Back to Kefla, her kick would have to be at least 40x blue Goku regardless for being stronger than a 20x Kaio ken. And her 2x amp was stronger than the first UIO. If she's just now surpassing his level why would UIO2 be less than 80x? I've repeatedly stated over and over that it makes the gap between UIO1 and 2 different for the wrong reasons. It makes no sense for UIO1 to be a bigger amp than UIO2, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

Like I said all these complications would be avoided if we just said he was holding back. We do it for PLENTY of other characters in the ToP, so what makes these girls so special? It's just circular reasoning at this point.

This should be closed anyway because grace is up.

 

[LordTracer]

He was holding back, just not that much. Kale is still Blue tier, there's more evidence supporting her being Blue tier than there is against her being Blue tier. Goku has not used Kaioken in situations even greater than Kale (Aniraza), why would he have to do it for Kale?

Except she really doesn't because one-shots have happened in Dragon Ball with less than a 2x difference before. And really, we don't know how much of an increase Kefla's SSJ2 is. It's SSJ2 + Legendary Super Saiyan, which has no known multiplier. I have said several times how the UIO2 boost is larger. Having God surpass Blue is a 50x difference. Having Blue surpass UIO1 is an infinite increase.

Having complications is not a reason to assume Goku was holding back. There's also several characters in the ToP other than Caulifla and Kale who are scaled to a full power Goku.

Some people thought it was a stomp, so I wasn't sure on if I should ask this to be added or not.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Let me put it this way then. I'll be using random numbers and using the logic that Goku got stronger after UIO1.

Blue Goku is a 1

The Kaio ken is a 2-20

The spirit bomb is a 1000

Ssj Kefla is at least at least a 1,000

Ssj2 is at least a 2,000

UIO1 is at least 1,000+

And UIO2 eventually reaches 2,000 but is weaker initially

Now that we got those numbers out of the way, let's begin. Pre ToP Goku needed a spirit bomb level attack to awaken UIO. Ssj2 Goku went from equal to ssj2 Caulifa to fighting her in base. That makes Goku overall 100x stronger so blue Goku is now a 100. The Spirit Bomb is now 10x blue Goku instead of 1,000x. This is a problem.

The Spirit Bomb is now weaker compared to Goku, so why would Goku still need a Spirit Bomb level attack to still awaken? Yes it is likely Kefla surpassed it but to assume it's by a huge margin would be head canon and wank. This also makes the gap between this stronger blue Goku and UIO2 smaller than UIO1. UIO2 is still stronger however the amp is no longer over 1,000x it's now at the very least 10x which makes no sense.

This is the last time I'm ever saying this ok.

 

[LordTracer]

You overlook that, once again, Whis' statements contradict themselves there. He said Goku would need more and more to keep unlocking UIO, damn near saying that another Spirit Bomb level attack would not be enough to break his limits again without actually saying it. And you keep overlooking that UIO2 gave Goku a vastly bigger increase in strength than UIO1 (Blue > UIO1 is still bigger than Blue > God), the only way you're going against that is by trying to apply multipliers to things that are unquantifiable.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

> Whis' statements contradict themselves there.

I did say that Kefla is superior but not by much. Even then literally it's really the Spirit Bomb statement that contradicts Whis. He's simply wrong about that. And before you say "but Whis said this" you have to remember that people can sense power levels so Kefla's spirit bomb statement holds more weight. Whis has been wrong before.

And can you stop saying the UIO2 gap is larger? You're contradicting yourself and you're proving little evidence.

 

[LordTracer]

First you say the Spirit Bomb statement is the contradictory one, then say it holds more weight? Which one is it? Whis has been wrong before, but considering that he is the authority on Ultra Instinct, his statement on Goku needing much more to unlock the form again should hold more weight.

How am I contradicting myself, exactly? I already provided the evidence, Post-UIO2 SSB Goku surpassed UIO1 as seen in his fight with Jiren. Post-UIO1 SSG Goku surpassed Pre-UIO1 SSB as seen in his fight with Kale. UIO2 very clearly gave the bigger increase there.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I said the spirit bomb statement contradicts/negates his statement about needing a stronger source. That's what I meant, not that it's contradicted. Anyway the spirit bomb statement has more weight because Whis can sense energy, and Whis knowing about UI doesn't hold that mug weight considering he didn't even know Goku was in any form of UI the first time he transformed into it.

I'm not talking about post UIO2 Goku at all, he's irrelevant now. You're still not making sense, if the gap between blue and UIO is still at least as large the Goku didn't get stronger to begin with. That's why I'm slapping the numbers on, so there can be a better understanding and placement. In the mean time you're just saying things, calling the numbers unquantifiable, and they don't add up.

The reason you yourself can't put a at least try to figure out where they stand your just saying stuff. All of these head canons and inconsistencies.

 

[LordTracer]

Whis having to figure out that Goku was in UIO1 changes the fact that he's the main expert on Ultra Instinct and would know exactly how it works how?

The debate is literally if UIO2 gave a bigger increase than UIO1... Your logic is flawed, that's like saying if Goku and Vegeta were both equals, and then they both went Super Saiyan and were still equals, neither got stronger. And you can't say Goku didn't get any stronger, the fact that he was able to not only hold his own, but hold the advantage over Post-Zenkai Caulifla shows that he's stronger. The values literally are unquantifiable, the values you give come from your headcanon. And you still have yet to contest the fact that UIO2 making Goku's SSB stronger than UIO1 is a bigger increase than UIO1 making Goku's SSG stronger than SSB.

You have yet to show where I supposedly contradicted myself. Also several of your claims are headcanon, so...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Goku was repeatedly stated to be fatigued.

Goku awakened UIO by a SB level attack.

The UIO amp.

Zero statements of Goku getting stronger.

Goku always holding back.

Vegeta > ssj2 Cabba.

Is all the evidence I have. What you have is Goku having an easier time fighting Kale and Caulifa. Whis's statement. They can easily be explained.

Goku was holding back against Caulifa: he literally showed her what ssj2 was because Caulifla was talking about it. He was simply introducing the form to her and basically showing her how to use it. She didn't land a single blow on him during their first fight and she even got overpowered. Goku even has the most casual look on his face.

Goku vs Kale: Kale is strong but extremely overrated. Goku said that he'll just use more power and didn't get a single scratch on himself. If Kale was really strong enough to tank a full power blue Kamehameha without even flinching then why didn't Goku use Kaio ken? Yes he didn't use it against Anilaza, but he was heavily drained as he went UIO twice already. Her legendary form is also a different form from her ssj form so who knows how strong that is?

Whis' statement: Is literally contradicted by actual feats.

 

[LordTracer]

He wasn't so fatigued that he couldn't pull off Blue Kaioken x20.

Feats show that Goku got stronger. There doesn't need to be statements when there's feats.

There are numerous people in and before the ToP Goku did not hold back against.

Base Vegeta is not stronger than SSJ2 Cabba, he cheap-shotted Monna when she didn't expect it. And again, Vegeta is stronger than Goku and Caulifla is stronger than Cabba, and she's definitely stronger after her Zenkai.

My evidence is not Goku having an easier time against them, it's that he was clearly shown to be able to keep up with them in forms that were very clearly inferior to them before.

- Base Goku was able to hold his own against Post-Zenkai SSJ2 Caulifla, which immediately shows that he got stronger as nothing even implies SSJ2 Caulifla was base Goku level at the beginning of the ToP. SSJ2 Goku was then able to fight on par with Post-Zenkai SSJ2 Caulifla after she was explicitly said to have been adapting and getting stronger.

- SSG Goku was superior to LSSJ2 Kale to a degree (she was still able to slow down one of his ki blasts and swap hands with him), despite LSSJ Kale being shown and stated several times to be SSB tier.

- UIO2 and UIO3 both gave Goku's normal forms increases in power, UIO1 would have to as well via Occam's razor.

Caulifla landed several hit on Goku, traded blows with and clashed with him. Caulifla even took a knee to the stomach from Goku and didn't even flinch. They were clearly portrayed as even in their first fight, what are you talking about?

Again, Goku was suppressed against Kale, just not very much. There are numerous things within the ToP that show and state she is Blue level. Also Goku never even had the chance to use Kaioken against Kale. She walked through the Kamehameha, palmed his face, threw him away, then lost her shiz even further and basically nuked the arena, and Goku got buried in rubble afterwards. Kale also damaged him during her meltdown, so there's that. Goku was also at the strongest he'd ever been (apart from UIO2) against Aniraza, and later against Jiren, he showed again that he wasn't so fatigued that he won't use the Kaioken.

Whis' Spirit Bomb statement is also contradicted by feats.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Goku went blue against Ribrianne of all people and he gets scratched by rocks, lasers and bullets because of his habit to hold back. What even implies that Goku wasn't holding back during his first fight with Coulifla? He was literally casually holding his own. Since she was adapting to Goku so much why didn't she force him to go further beyond ssj2 if they were initially equal?

 

[LordTracer]

Ribrianne was shown to only be base Goku/Vegeta level, so him going Blue against her doesn't really compare to him going Blue against LSSJ Kale, who's only showing is her against Goku Blue. Caulifla was also casual against Goku in their first fight. And she likely didn't force him into SSJ3 and beyond because the fight didn't go on very long before Kale went LSSJ.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

When does Caulifla ever hold back ever?

 

[LordTracer]

Apparently against Goku in round one, because both of them looked hella casual.