Castlevania revision

[XXKINGXX69]

Speed:

This feat isn't infinite speed. This is just removing space, which is spatial manipulation. If Death had infinite speed, he wouldn’t need to kill the distance between him and his target, his movements would already ignore distance passively without the use of death manipulation. We also have Olrox being scaled to this "infinite" speed feat even though he moves at the speed of sound, proving that the spatial manipulation isn’t something that scales to other attacks or Death’s regular combat and travel speed. The previous MFTL+ feat is better to be used


Some abilities:
Plot Manipulation (Is capable of resisting the effects of Chaos which can rewrite[62] the entire narrative[62] it's in to ensure it being the winner,[62] and overflow into reality[62])

This alone isn’t plot manipulation. Its just changing a book, which then affects the powers of the cast by weakening them. A better scan should be used to prove its actually affecting the narrative of the world, I can’t find one so it would be appreciated if someone could. Also, that’s not “rewriting plot to ensure it being the winner”, that’s just causing someone’s power to be weakened which is not the same as literally ensuring someone being the winner


Resistances:

We give every character who can survive Chaos powers resistances to every single effect of Chaos even though some effects are literally shown to work on them. For example, Jonathan Morris can resist Chaos powers, but can't resist the plot manipulation of the Chaos, yet he still somehow has resistance to plot manipulation? We also give resistance to perception manipulation and the scan being used is literally just a scan of him not resisting it, but being affected by it. BFR: We give characters resistance to BFR by using a scan of them being affected by the BFR. Same for the Illusion resistance

So this means resisting some Chaos powers doesn’t mean you resist everything the power of chaos can do. One can resist the castle’s power to mutate your body without resisting its illusion creation/perception manipulation.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Theglassman12]

That still counts for infinite speed, other characters have infinite for ignoring space, and the fact that Olrox reacts to it scales to their speed in general, and Olrox moving at the speed of sound doesn't remotely mention it being him at his top speed, which even if it was is stupid when we have so many light speed feats from fodder tier monsters to MFTL+ feats from higher tier beings, so the higher feats outweigh this one, and it's assuming this was him moving that fast at his best.

You mean the book that's an entire world? Because the books are literal worlds. Also yes it is ensuring they win because they changed the events to where the victims lose in the fights they originally won in the stories, that's literally what happens.

He alongside many others fight the exact same beings with the same plot hax powers and they don't get mega nerfed every time, so they've developed a resistance towards the hax. Yeah, the scan is literally showing the castle warping senses when you enter the castle, and every single one of the cast except for John and Eric don't get affected by this. An alternate timeline simon belmont being affected by BFR, not the same as the main timeline version, alongside everyone else who's never fazed by it. Also Juste was never affected by the illusions so you're not even making any argument here.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

That still counts for infinite speed, other characters have infinite for ignoring space, and the fact that Olrox reacts to it scales to their speed in general, and Olrox moving at the speed of sound doesn't remotely mention it being him at his top speed, which even if it was is stupid when we have so many light speed feats from fodder tier monsters to MFTL+ feats from higher tier beings, so the higher feats outweigh this one, and it's assuming this was him moving that fast at his best.

You mean the book that's an entire world? Because the books are literal worlds. Also yes it is ensuring they win because they changed the events to where the victims lose in the fights they originally won in the stories, that's literally what happens.

He alongside many others fight the exact same beings with the same plot hax powers and they don't get mega nerfed every time, so they've developed a resistance towards the hax. Yeah, the scan is literally showing the castle warping senses when you enter the castle, and every single one of the cast except for John and Eric don't get affected by this. An alternate timeline simon belmont being affected by BFR, not the same as the main timeline version, alongside everyone else who's never fazed by it. Also Juste was never affected by the illusions so you're not even making any argument here.

Ok, I'll make CRTs for those other 2 characters to get downgraded then. And those profiles also don't scale their combat speed to the speed of the attack that cuts distance, so you just proved my point. Can you prove that Olrox reacted to it? It doesn't say that anywhere.

You mean the book that's an entire world? Because the books are literal worlds.

So? That's just reality warping. it doesn't say its affecting the narrative

Also yes it is ensuring they win because they changed the events to where the victims lose in the fights they originally won in the stories, that's literally what happens.

Scans of this? That's also very misleading, its more like changing the world to the point where everyone's weapons and powers are weakened, which then lead to their loss. Not the same as rewriting the plot to ensure victory

He alongside many others fight the exact same beings with the same plot hax powers and they don't get mega nerfed every time, so they've developed a resistance towards the hax.

Scans?

Yeah, the scan is literally showing the castle warping senses when you enter the castle, and every single one of the cast except for John and Eric don't get affected by this.

Not every part of the castle alters the senses in that game. If that were the case, the entire game would look like that. You'd only get resistance to it if you enter that part of the castle, that same area and become unaffected. How does Eric and John have resistance to perception manipulation if they literally don't resist it then?

And why does everyone have a resistance to BFR for surviving in the castle? Not every part of the castle BFRs you in that game, so this is basically the same as the perception manipulation thing

 

[Fixxed]

I agree with remove the plot manipulation, i think after i read dracula's profile, the book is not control the plot or narrative in the world. In fact there are no mention about something like plot or narrative that can fulfill requirement for plot in plot manip's page

That book just can summon and materialize monsters in world, there are no like overwrite something like narrative that view the world just like fiction

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 There's more than just those two characters who have infinite speed for bypassing distance, so good luck changing the standard on the wiki, did you even bother reading the last line where Olrox literally dodges it when the scythes reach his afterimage? Because the scan answers it for you. Unless you want to bring in some special type of argument and tell me it doesn't literally say he dodged it with his speed.

Ah yes, reality warping of an entire book that's a literal world, and changing the text easily on a whim. By that logic literally every single unnatural ability is just reality warping, give a better argument than moving the goal post.

Yeah, rewriting the plot to where the heroes are losing instead of winning means ensuring their victory. Unless you want me to spell it out for you it's very easy to understand when the vital souls change the entire narrative in these grimoires.

Literally the entire game where the characters fight all of the other vital soul creatures and they don't get affected by the effects of chaos as opposed to before.

Both perception and BFR hax happens when you enter the castle, and especially in the metroidvania games where they go through every corner of the castle they aren't fazed by it. John and Eric having the resistance is just a simple mistake, and I don't oppose removing it from their pages.

@Fixxed Tell me you didn't bother reading my arguments without telling me you didn't bother reading my arguments, because my god did I explain it all in my comment.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

@XXKINGXX69 There's more than just those two characters who have infinite speed for bypassing distance, so good luck changing the standard on the wiki, did you even bother reading the last line where Olrox literally dodges it when the scythes reach his afterimage? Because the scan answers it for you. Unless you want to bring in some special type of argument and tell me it doesn't literally say he dodged it with his speed.

Ah yes, reality warping of an entire book that's a literal world, and changing the text easily on a whim. By that logic literally every single unnatural ability is just reality warping, give a better argument than moving the goal post.

Yeah, rewriting the plot to where the heroes are losing instead of winning means ensuring their victory. Unless you want me to spell it out for you it's very easy to understand when the vital souls change the entire narrative in these grimoires.

Literally the entire game where the characters fight all of the other vital soul creatures and they don't get affected by the effects of chaos as opposed to before.

Both perception and BFR hax happens when you enter the castle, and especially in the metroidvania games where they go through every corner of the castle they aren't fazed by it. John and Eric having the resistance is just a simple mistake, and I don't oppose removing it from their pages.

@Fixxed Tell me you didn't bother reading my arguments without telling me you didn't bother reading my arguments, because my god did I explain it all in my comment.

You need to prove that Olrox made the afterimage while Death was heading towards him. Olrox could have done that right before Death started killing the space between them

Ah yes, reality warping of an entire book that's a literal world, and changing the text easily on a whim. By that logic literally every single unnatural ability is just reality warping, give a better argument than moving the goal post.

You still haven't provided evidence its changing the narrative

Yeah, rewriting the plot to where the heroes are losing instead of winning means ensuring their victory. Unless you want me to spell it out for you it's very easy to understand when the vital souls change the entire narrative in these grimoires.

Are you just going to repeat the argument I already addressed? if so, I'll just copy and paste it again. That's also very misleading, its more like changing the world to the point where everyone's weapons and powers are weakened, which then lead to their loss. Not the same as rewriting the plot to ensure victory. You also didn't post scans when I asked for it, so I'm assuming you just can't prove it?

Literally the entire game where the characters fight all of the other vital soul creatures and they don't get affected by the effects of chaos as opposed to before.

Prove that they aren't affected? We literally see John being affected by it

Both perception and BFR hax happens when you enter the castle, and especially in the metroidvania games where they go through every corner of the castle they aren't fazed by it.

Prove it happens right when you enter the castle, if that was the case the whole game would be Simon being BFRd

 

[Fixxed]

@Fixxed Tell me you didn't bother reading my arguments without telling me you didn't bother reading my arguments, because my god did I explain it all in my comment.

Just give me proof about the narrative/plot that can fulfill requirement for plot in plot manip's page

 

[Delta333]

If I remember correctly Noel having infinite speed via ignoring distance has never been a thing at all, in the immeasurable speed downgrade thread we give the cast infinite speed because they can travel infinite distance instead, although even if it's actually accepted, it should be removed due to being spatial hax instead of speed, well, if you want to use characters from the different verse as an example then I also have one.

BFR resistance is wrong as well since it will only send the target to another dimension when a blue portal appears, so saying that going to various places within the castle automatically grants resistance to BFR just sounds wrong (unless they go through the portal yet being unfazed by it), even the fact that character in the video latter doesn't get BFR'd is more than enough to prove that the effect will only occur when the portal thing exists unless you want to say that he resists BFR too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

gonna be real chief 2-C everyone castlevania is wank

 

[Theglassman12]

@XXKINGXX69 You mean the guy who literally used an afterimage to dodge death's scythes in the very scan itself? You do realize they had an entire conversation before death went ahead with attacking right? Unless you're claiming he's always having afterimages on passively which doesn't make sense when he himself has to move to do the afterimages.

The fact you have to say that with a straight face shows how little you're paying attention to my arguments. The scans all literally show the grimoires (which are real worlds) being warped to the point the text itself which tells the story of what happened being altered to the point the narrative changes to make the heroes lose as oppose to win. How about paying attention to the entire premise of Grimoire of Souls as opposed to saying it doesn't change the narrative when we literally see it happen.

Nothing about what I said is misleading, that's literally what happens with the grimoires, and I don't need to post scans when they're on the pages and you being yourself loves to take things out of context or just flat out ignore it, again try and disprove that the entire premise of Grimoire of Souls isn't the stories being altered by chaos to have the creatures of chaos win. If you cannot debunk this very simple premise beyond "It's not legit" then this shit ain't passing, especially when your best argument went from "no proof of it affecting the worlds" to "it's just reality warping" which is just peak moving the goalpost at this point.

This alongside every other boss in the game that has a vital soul, which is chaos in nature, they defeat without having their text altered.

You literally enter the castle and that happens shortly after walking inside, the more you talk the more you prove to me you didn't bother going through the games.

@Matthew_Schroeder then by all means make a CRT telling me why it's wrong, which btw, not everyone is 2-C, let alone solidly 2-C across the entire games they're in so you're making assumptions

@Fixxed You mean the proof that it's literal and not metaphorical? Because it is literal, the grimoires which are real worlds are literally being altered to having the narrative change for the monsters to win instead of lose, and the characters go inside the grimoires all the time in the game. It checks off the requirements for plot hax, so can you give some form of argument that isn't just "give me proof" cause it's all there.

@Delta333 It always was a thing dude, back in the tier 1 CRT I did, Noel's earlier keys had infinite speed since then, even Ultima agreed with it so if you think it's not legit you're gonna have to get past him as well. And again numerous other franchises in this wiki has infinite speed, Digimon and Fortissimo being examples.

The portal happens when he enters the castle, especially given how every lore bit talks about the castle's mere influence is enough to cause these abilities to happen, and we have characters literally explore the entire castle without this happening to them, it would warrant a resistance. That's an alternate timeline simon belmont so he's not really comparable to the main timeline so yeah, he wouldn't really resist it.

 

[Delta333]

@Delta333 It always was a thing dude, back in the tier 1 CRT I did, Noel's earlier keys had infinite speed since then, even Ultima agreed with it so if you think it's not legit you're gonna have to get past him as well. And again numerous other franchises in this wiki has infinite speed, Digimon and Fortissimo being examples.

Ok? You can ping Ultima here and I will debate with him.

The portal happens when he enters the castle, especially given how every lore bit talks about the castle's mere influence is enough to cause these abilities to happen, and we have characters literally explore the entire castle without this happening to them, it would warrant a resistance. That's an alternate timeline simon belmont so he's not really comparable to the main timeline so yeah, he wouldn't really resist it.

Send me the part in which they go through the portal without getting BFR'ed and I will agree with keeping them. And why does them exploring the castle automatically mean that they resist it? Simon Belmont can enter the castle and he doesn't resist it at all.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I personally believe the Infinite speed feat is still valid, given that Orlox evades the attack.

 

[spoog]

If you say it's spatial manipulation, wouldn't that still be a feat in of itself to dodge an attack that (presumably) spawns on top of you?

 

[Delta333]

If it's not something like aim dodging then yes, but the justification needs to change because killing distances is an ability.

 

[Purgy]

For infinite speed, just change Death's speed section to something like

Speed: Infinite (Fought Count Olrox and is considered equal to him)

The infinite rating itself is still valid as Olrox evaded the attack

 

[Rabbit2002]

Agree with Delta about BFR

 

[Fixxed]

@Fixxed You mean the proof that it's literal and not metaphorical? Because it is literal, the grimoires which are real worlds are literally being altered to having the narrative change for the monsters to win instead of lose, and the characters go inside the grimoires all the time in the game. It checks off the requirements for plot hax, so can you give some form of argument that isn't just "give me proof" cause it's all there.

I not asking for the real world is the book, i asking for the narrative/plot. In fact you can have a book that contain all of existence and not have plot manipulation. You must proof that book is have narrative that govern the world and view that just like fiction, like a novel

Just says that book is the world it self, is not necessary make the world in or govern by a narrative, prove that there are narrative in that fiction

 

[PainKiller07]

Fortissimo being examples

actually no. The verse also has Odin who performs conceptual/law spatial removing at a greater extent than Death didn't get infinite speed, and instead just hax. While Reiji (who did get infinite attack speed), on the other hand, has a pretty much undeniable feat of instantly reaching his father despite the literal infinite space between the two, on top of having statements like ignoring space, distance and stuff.

Spoiler

Die Walkuere’s usage doesn’t stop at creating pocket realities and infinite space/distance, it also allows Odin to use this absolute to banish other people into other spaces as well as erasing the distance between him and the opponent, making his attacks always instantly hit the opponent

 

[Theglassman12]

@PainKiller07 Warping concepts and laws doesn't really mean ignoring distance, the latter being the thing that qualifies for infinite speed here, and it doesn't really debunk my point as they still have infinite speed for ignoring distance altogether. So if KING wants to get rid of infinite speed castlevania he'd need to change the standards on what's considered infinite speed because this applies to so many other verses.

@Fixxed The text in the grimoires is the narrative, it literally tells the story of specific events that happened between the heroes and Dracula's forces, and that's being warped which changes the entire events inside of the grimoires. Actually read the scans on the pages with my comment showing the grimoires are actual worlds the characters can enter while treating it like fiction since it's a literal story before trying to claim that it doesn't involve the narrative because every scan mentions the grimoire narratives being altered by the powers of chaos.

@Delta333 You can just make a CRT about this since several other folks here agree with infinite speed being like this.

Because the fact they go through every corner of the castle and nothing about the castle's influence ever affects them, down to the point of being warped into another dimension, where the alternate timeline simon belmont entering the castle got warped into another dimension not even a few minutes after going through the front door. Given how so many statements have the castle's literal influence warp the targets easily in a wide variety of ways, with the BFR happening when you enter the castle being one of those abilities, why would this be considered not passive that the characters resist when they've traveled through the castle without this affecting them in the first place? Also again, alternate timeline simon belmont you're using here which doesn't really count here when he doesn't have a page.

@Purgy not really necessary to add that, we have Olrox and Richter react to the move in the novels and cutscenes respectively as well as virtually every single character that fights death react to his attacks in any of his boss fights.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Ok, we can drop the infinite speed arguments now, I have to make a separate CRT

 

[Delta333]

Because the fact they go through every corner of the castle and nothing about the castle's influence ever affects them, down to the point of being warped into another dimension, where the alternate timeline simon belmont entering the castle got warped into another dimension not even a few minutes after going through the front door. Given how so many statements have the castle's literal influence warp the targets easily in a wide variety of ways, with the BFR happening when you enter the castle being one of those abilities, why would this be considered not passive that the characters resist when they've traveled through the castle without this affecting them in the first place? Also again, alternate timeline simon belmont you're using here which doesn't really count here when he doesn't have a page.

Scan for the part of them being unaffected by the portal, you can't say that many things without evidence at all. Or the only reason is just because they can wander randomly within the castle? Because that portal thing doesn't even appear according to the gameplay of many games, we straight up can't even see its appearance (I'm not about to say that the castle doesn't have BFR), let alone the part of them going through the portal without being BFR'ed, and the fact that most of the events in the game of Kid Drac happen within the Underworld yet Kid Drac still has resistance to BFR sounds wrong. Also Simon Belmont having no page doesn't mater, it still proves that entering the castle doesn't grant resistance to BFR by default at all, just like that vid has shown.

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not the only reason I gave dude, I literally said the castle’s mere influence is enough for any of its powers to affect you. The fact that so many statements of the castle from other characters, the bestiary, and cutscenes/novel itself show that you being near the castle is enough to affect you with its hax, with BFR being one of the many things it’s capable of doing, and it happens when Simon from an alternate timeline shows up in the castle’s entrance. The fact the characters explore the entire castle and not a single time does any of the castle’s influence affects them at all warrants a resistance to these abilities.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I agree with the resistances staying as long as they are passive, when someone wants to downgrade a verse that 1, they don't know nothing about, or 2, they dislike someone, they usually push for a unreasonable burden of proof or straight up ignore lore, statements, feats, everything that doesn't help the thread. Here we can find those examples, yet again for Castlevania

To be clear, I actually agree with one thing here, the BFR Resistance. If it's done via a portal, and said portal is nowhere to be seen in most games (And I played almost every single one), chances are, they are not passive, so only the ones shown to be resisting it should scale

About Plot Hax, it affects literall realities, changing the narrative to force Chaos to win, that's textbook Plot Manipulation, I disagree with the OP's reasons. When being used, what matters is the method: if I change the narrative to make someone, for example, lose their powers, that's still Plot Manipulation, being used as Power Null

 

[Delta333]

That’s not the only reason I gave dude, I literally said the castle’s mere influence is enough for any of its powers to affect you. The fact that so many statements of the castle from other characters, the bestiary, and cutscenes/novel itself show that you being near the castle is enough to affect you with its hax, with BFR being one of the many things it’s capable of doing, and it happens when Simon from an alternate timeline shows up in the castle’s entrance. The fact the characters explore the entire castle and not a single time does any of the castle’s influence affects them at all warrants a resistance to these abilities.

Why the portal doesn't appear 100% all the time throughout the game if it's actually passive and appears when someone enters the castle? The entire game will just be him going through the portal constantly.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Delta333 why does it appearing all the time matter when it showing up one time (and it happens when someone enters the castle) is enough evidence to prove the shit happens when near the castle? By that logic every hax that’s shown or stated once isn’t legit regardless if there’s no contradiction to said showings/statements. Also completely forgot to include this, but Soma and Mina being warped into the castle at the beginning of Aria of sorrow for approaching it shows more BFR for the castle.

 

[Delta333]

The feat at the beginning of Aria of Sorrow will work if it requires no portal to BFR.

 

[Theglassman12]

Given the fact that no portal appears or is even mentioned, just that Soma felt warped when the eclipse happened already shows no portal is happening there.

 

[PainKiller07]

Provide scans please, non-knowledgeable members won't get a thing

 

[Delta333]

From the beginning to 1:22

 

[spoog]

Well what now? There's no portal and it's clearly against Soma's will, as he doesn't even know what happened.

 

[Theglassman12]

Another BFR showing for the castle, which can be used for resistance to anyone else.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is still plot manipulation if you manipulate the plot to get a victory for yourself.

 

[spoog]

That sounds like a definition of combat-applicable plothax.

 

[PainKiller07]

Disagree with the removal of plot manipulation till this point. Tho there's this thing that concerns me, being vaguely called the embodiment of something is nowhere enough to grant AE, even if it's type 2.

Abstract Existence (Type 2; via Aguni[2] and Gaap[4] and Salamander[29])

 

[ImmortalDread]

Embodying an abstract is a textbook definition of Type 2, my friend.

 

[PainKiller07]

I'm not an expert in language analysis but embodiment by itself can mean lots of things. For example having qualities that are relevant to a specific idea can grant you the so-called ''embodiment'' sth (Jack Frost being the embodiment of winter), and we all know how this is flat out not what the wiki standards getting at

 

[Quantu]

Embodying an abstract is a textbook definition of Type 2, my friend.

Not quite.

"Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction."

 

[ImmortalDread]

tbh we need type 3 lol

 

[Delta333]

tbh we need type 3 lol

It used to exist, for those who are the embodiment of sth but not relying on that abstraction to be immortal, but we remove it because of how useless it is as an ability.