Captain America’s shield revision/downgrade

[Antvasima]

That is likely one good reason for downscaling many of our 1-A Marvel characters, yes.

 

[FinePoint]

Anyway, giving a large part of the Marvel Comics characters minimum, maximum, and average statistics, might be our only good longterm solution for such a staggeringly enormously inconsistent verse.

I think that would be a net positive for like 90% of verses on this site regardless, so I definitely think it's a good idea here where it's particularly inconsistent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I pretty much agree with KLOL's quotation about Ultima's eventual plans to downgrade the 1-A ends scaling from Skyfather to High 1-B. Which would effect Cap's shield among others. But Impress said the way the OP was written was kind of a mess already. It might be better to close the thread and handle that in a different one.

 

[KLOL506]

I pretty much agree with KLOL's quotation about Ultima's eventual plans to downgrade the 1-A ends scaling from Skyfather to High 1-B. Which would effect Cap's shield among others. But Impress said the way the OP was written was kind of a mess already. It might be better to close the thread and handle that in a different one.

Time to wait another 3 fiscal business years for Ultima's return then

 

[Antvasima]

Time to wait another 3 fiscal business years for Ultima's return then

Well, he said 3 months, so around two months left, hopefully.

 

[Hellformer]

I agree about that our Marvel Comics tiering, including for the magic users and astral plane telepaths, seem to have been exaggerated to ridiculous extremes, but this is also due to the extremely dadaistically illogical nature of Marvel Comics storytelling as a whole, wherein writers systematically regularly push Thor and other characters up and down between tiers 9-C to 1-A mostly depending on their personal biases regarding if they hate or love a character. There is no coherence or logic whatsoever in their storytelling. The writers largely just don't care at all about such storytelling qualities.

For example, Storm is soon going to beat up, or at least put up a serious fight against, a Mesopotamian storm deity who is somehow supposed to be second in power only to The One Above All, a High 1-A character, and she used to strictly being limited to producing local, at most tier 6-B, weather effects, and still doesn't have any personal feats much beyond that scale other than that she is allowed to effortlessly beat up absolutely anybody else, no matter how overpowered they are, again, purely out of irrational biases from the writers.

As such, I am extremely open for help with fixing our tiers, but am not sure how to accomplish it.

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Eficiente @Adr10K @Rex_Eckles @The_Impress

Your help would be greatly appreciated here.

I heavily agree with this, and to add more, I think we should also check anti feats for the cosmology, especially the ones equal to or above 1-A. For example, the 5th dimension which is currently accepted as 1-A+ on this wiki, has statements for being a higher mathematical dimension and having an extra spatial axis or the source wall which is higher into 1-A+ on this wiki, has statements suggesting that it has 6-dimensional space. These are simply few examples which I could think of, there might be more but I think my point is understandable. Same applies for Marvel.

 

[The_Impress]

If y'all want to downgrade the shield because of its physicality, then all the "feats" of it blocking attacks from 1-A entities are actually anti-feats for said 1-A entities, meaning you guys should re-evalutate them instead of just him.

ye I ain't disagreeing, just stating bigger context for it all.

This is honestly just the magic downgrade thread all over again lol

All in all I don't think the OP is bad for making the thread or whatever, but most people just, genuinely don't know the degree of ****** the verse actually is, where basic ass questions on the statistics can lead to unraveling like this

 

[Osemere]

For what it’s worth I’m aware that most of the Marvel revisions for 1-A were done before the actual tiering system revisions, even if the 1-A placements were fidgeted with after. It’s even complicated with as more after more 1-A revisions were done with regard to disqualifications and clarifications on what constitutes an “anti-feat” and the like, and this is just one example; I agree with the above that there are much more for Marvel that I can think of, just like I can think of some for DC and the like which seem to have been accepted around these parts.

The entire point of this thread, though, was not to try to tear down the entire verse with the downgrade of something that is insignificant with regard to the lore (as I left that to staff discretion, even if I had my own opinions of what I would do personally), but to apply something small with a greater chance of being correct as opposed to doing something huge generally and having a much larger discussion with a greater chance of being wrong. I think it’s pretty simple that the opposition in this thread has been characteristically chafing with the already accepted standards and traditionally we have done downgrades for something much less in the counterpart to this verse (DC).

I’m willing to give a larger summary for the arguments I gave in this thread for mod evaluation FWIW, because a lot of it technically is dependent upon newly qualified standards which weren’t in place when the shield gained its tier, even if it was known basically in an unwritten form then.

 

[Arkenis]

The entire point of this thread, though, was not to try to tear down the entire verse with the downgrade of something that is insignificant with regard to the lore (as I left that to staff discretion, even if I had my own opinions of what I would do personally), but to apply something small with a greater chance of being correct as opposed to doing something huge generally and having a much larger discussion with a greater chance of being wrong. I think it’s pretty simple that the opposition in this thread has been characteristically chafing with the already accepted standards and traditionally we have done downgrades for something much less in the counterpart to this verse (DC).

There are tons of verses where one or two calcs or metas are used to scale the whole verse but might be wrong or not used anymore; we don't just target one random character, we change the whole thing to make sure everything is proper instead of leaving one thing fixed and everything else messed up. It would be better to be wrong and have fixed the issue than be right and have left the issue in any context basically.

 

[Osemere]

There are tons of verses where one or two calcs or metas are used to scale the whole verse but might be wrong or not used anymore; we don't just target one random character, we change the whole thing to make sure everything is proper instead of leaving one thing fixed and everything else messed up. It would be better to be wrong and have fixed the issue than be right and have left the issue in any context basically.

Obviously you can’t just be paralyzed by inaction because of the hugeness of a particular verse if something very small and easy-to-check is wrong. The consequences being large is a problem, yes, but you can fix something particular right then and there if you don’t think the standards are up to fit; which is why I think we should further invite any more tiering experts who understand how the revisions work to evaluate the arguments in the thread, since apparently concepts like 1-A “physicals” are things that lots of people don’t understand completely, etc. This is particularly an indexing wiki, so if something is wrong in a specific profile which might affect the capacity of using that character in something like a versus match, that should take priority IMO.

 

[KLOL506]

In either case, the thread should be closed as I am almost certain Ultima will definitely tackle it in the future and the peeps will almost certainly be downgraded back to High 1-B.

 

[Osemere]

In either case, the thread should be closed as I am almost certain Ultima will definitely tackle it in the future and the peeps will almost certainly be downgraded back to High 1-B.

I think it’s interesting that Agnaa posted a discord message earlier in this thread which had Ultima agree with the shield not being 1-A and that being specifically the reason why the discussions for the FAQ revisions which were cited in the OP was done, which might be something to consider, but if this one guy has such a monopoly over Marvel that nobody is allowed to touch it for years then whatever, do whatever you think is best.

 

[Arkenis]

Obviously you can’t just be paralyzed by inaction because of the hugeness of a particular verse if something very small and easy-to-check is wrong. The consequences being large is a problem, yes, but you can fix something particular right then and there if you don’t think the standards are up to fit; which is why I think we should further invite any more tiering experts who understand how the revisions work to evaluate the arguments in the thread, since apparently concepts like 1-A “physicals” are things that lots of people don’t understand completely, etc. This is particularly an indexing wiki, so if something is wrong in a specific profile which might affect the capacity of using that character in something like a versus match, that should take priority IMO.

No you can, and we often are as I've seen and experienced on the wiki. If a verse requires extensive changes, then it does, full stop, and going for the little things that are really part of the big things isn't a healthy method for dealing with quality. It's an indexing wiki which makes this an indexing issue, we care less if you can't use the character in a match versus does the page have the proper info like every other connected page. Say you get the tier downgraded and Cap's shield is H1B, you go look where that's from and see Thor has 1-A not H1B then that poses a problem for what we're really scaling him to.

This is why I said instead of this, you should have went through the feats and argued for why Cap doesn't scale or as we acknowledged, post 2011 and pre should have different keys. These at least tackle how the feats are indexxed versus tackling the tiering itself.

 

[Osemere]

No you can, and we often are as I've seen and experienced on the wiki. If a verse requires extensive changes, then it does, full stop, and going for the little things that are really part of the big things isn't a healthy method for dealing with quality. It's an indexing wiki which makes this an indexing issue, we care less if you can't use the character in a match versus does the page have the proper info like every other connected page. Say you get the tier downgraded and Cap's shield is H1B, you go look where that's from and see Thor has 1-A not H1B then that poses a problem for what we're really scaling him to.

This is why I said instead of this, you should have went through the feats and argued for why Cap doesn't scale or as we acknowledged, post 2011 and pre should have different keys. These at least tackle how the feats are indexxed versus tackling the tiering itself.

There’s no standard for having to change everything all at once if something is tied into it all; something that is only related to something else based on like two instances as posted on the profile ought to be purged if that violates the standards we actually have written down as opposed to something that isn’t and is just the consequence of having one person who has a monopoly on a verse. There can’t be any changes done (which should be done) if we’re going on some oral rule which isn’t codified based on not being able to change anything without having everything else done simultaneously, and there’s not anything you can show for that being necessarily precedent either. As far as I’m concerned pretty much every staff agrees with this as a problem and just has different perspectives on whether it should be postponed as opposed to not being done at all.

 

[Arkenis]

There’s no standard for having to change everything all at once if something is tied into it all; something that is only related to something else based on like two instances as posted on the profile ought to be purged if that violates the standards we actually have written down as opposed to something that isn’t and is just the consequence of having one person who has a monopoly on a verse. There can’t be any changes done (which should be done) if we’re going on some oral rule which isn’t codified based on not being able to change anything without having everything else done simultaneously, and there’s not anything you can show for that being necessarily precedent either. As far as I’m concerned pretty much every staff agrees with this as a problem and just has different perspectives on whether it should be postponed as opposed to not being done at all.

Everything doesn't need a standard/rule to figure out why you should do it that way. And it's less of a monopoly, more so that "man it's gonna be a headache to keep going through this crt, and that crt and there's this crt" instead of the main supporters tackling it all in one concrete and detailed crt. Instead of always focusing on stats, these pages could use changes on other info or just overall clean up of the page. If I took the time I'm sure I could go find a couple crts that tackle the whole verse's issues instead of one page, there doesn't have to be a precedent for doing something the right way after all.

 

[Osemere]

Everything doesn't need a standard/rule to figure out why you should do it that way. And it's less of a monopoly, more so that "man it's gonna be a headache to keep going through this crt, and that crt and there's this crt" instead of the main supporters tackling it all in one concrete and detailed crt. Instead of always focusing on stats, these pages could use changes on other info or just overall clean up of the page. If I took the time I'm sure I could go find a couple crts that tackle the whole verse's issues instead of one page, there doesn't have to be a precedent for doing something the right way after all.

Of course there are CRTs that tackle the entire verse as opposed to one page, just like there’s things that go the other way around. As far as I’m concerned the only thing stopping this is the same appeal to the admittedly uncodified standards, and there’s no real progress to be made if every single effort done individually is shut down by “us, the supporters, need to revamp all the other pages first before you, a non-supporter, can do this individual thing.”

 

[Arkenis]

Of course there are CRTs that tackle the entire verse as opposed to one page, just like there’s things that go the other way around. As far as I’m concerned the only thing stopping this is the same appeal to the admittedly uncodified standards, and there’s no real progress to be made if every single effort done individually is shut down by “us, the supporters, need to revamp all the other pages first before you, a non-supporter, can do this individual thing.”

Individual work is often undone or not easily passed for big verses because it often is hastily done, or just outright poorly made like this crt. Again stuff doesn't have to be codified for us to follow it, its just better for the quality of the pages if things are done together as a group.

 

[Osemere]

Individual work is often undone or not easily passed for big verses because it often is hastily done, or just outright poorly made like this crt. Again stuff doesn't have to be codified for us to follow it, its just better for the quality of the pages if things are done together as a group.

I understand the thought, but it still doesn’t change that the argument has devolved to a recommendation while the only thing left to be done is staff input.

 

[Agnaa]

Tbf Chariot is right.

If y'all want to downgrade the shield because of its physicality, then all the "feats" of it blocking attacks from 1-A entities are actually anti-feats for said 1-A entities, meaning you guys should re-evalutate them instead of just him.

I think this is just a weird assertion to make.

If a character has ten anti-feats capping them at wall level, them surviving a blow from an 8-B could apply to either that piece of scaling, or to that character being 8-B in the first place depending on context.

I don't like your and Chariot's assertion that it HAS to be about the other character having the rating in the first place.

There’s no standard for having to change everything all at once if something is tied into it all; something that is only related to something else based on like two instances as posted on the profile ought to be purged if that violates the standards we actually have written down

There is actually a proposed rule for this. People largely agree with it, but we're trying to work out some minor differences. Still, we all agree that, at minimum, everyone affected by an update should be known by that thread's conclusion, and it should be applied to all of them.

So a downgrade to High 1-B without other High 1-B pages to scale to would be an issue.

But making it "Varies, up to 1-A" would be fine.

In that case we wait for Eseseso and Ultima (When he finishes his exams) to make the CRT down the line, since once that happens this conversation will turn entirely meaningless.

With how much shit Ultima has on his plate, I don't think waiting for him is a good idea (we won't just be waiting until he comes back, but until he finds this in whichever position he places it among the other 20 things he'll be evaluating), and I don't think him arriving late would turn the conversation meaningless.

Eseseso has already commented, leaning towards making the shield's durability vary, or downgrading the Skyfathers.

---

So, what do we need to do in order to make progress now?

 

[Arkenis]

I think this is just a weird assertion to make.

If a character has ten anti-feats capping them at wall level, them surviving a blow from an 8-B could apply to either that piece of scaling, or to that character being 8-B in the first place depending on context.

I don't like your and Chariot's assertion that it HAS to be about the other character having the rating in the first place.

Well I think it was more so how consistent it is, something can't be an anti-feat for one if it's consistently shown to be that tier basically.

But making it "Varies, up to 1-A" would be fine.

So, what do we need to do in order to make progress now?

I think that's the most optimal thing to do instead of waiting for the highfathers downgrade or Ultima. Although, isn't there also a rating for inconsistent scaling?

 

[Agnaa]

Well I think it was more so how consistent it is, something can't be an anti-feat for one if it's consistently shown to be that tier basically.

idk much about Marvel, and the page just provides three feats of it withstanding blows from 1-As, one of which was before it got Uru and so would be chucked out regardless. I find it hard to believe that those characters being 1-A is based on literally one or two feats. So I have to assume them being 1-A is more consistent than Cap's shield scaling to them.

I think that's the most optimal thing to do instead of waiting for the highfathers downgrade or Ultima.

As mentioned, I'd just want some input from Marvel experts on whether that Uru stuff is legit reasoning for the way Cap's shield operates.

Although, isn't there also a rating for inconsistent scaling?

No.

 

[FinePoint]

As mentioned, I'd just want some input from Marvel experts on whether that Uru stuff is legit reasoning for the way Cap's shield operates.

Well I hesitate to call myself or anyone an "expert" on a fictional media property, but from my understanding:

Uru as a metal is sometimes depicted as inherently stronger than things like vibranium, sometimes not, but what's consistent is that it has a high enchantability and/or affinity for magic, and magic/enchantments themselves vary wildly in Marvel but can scale extremely high. It's presumably why Thor's hammer is able to hold such a strong enchantment, can't be picked up, power of Thor etc, for example.

So if the question is whether or not adding uru elements to the shield could scale it stupidly high compared to before, the answer is that it definitely wouldn't be that far-fetched from what we've seen it do before.

 

[The_Impress]

By the potentially over-exaggerated ratings that exist currently, maybe Uru can hit 1-A.

As said this is just the Marvel Magic thread, it's way too small in scope to tackle what is a larger problem plaguing the verse. There's no point in downgrading characters one by one when they can just end up scaling to some other non-downgraded bullshit. These are valid threads, but they're not the type that are worthwhile to put energy into, not because of the OP's faults, but the supporter base's errors. Hell I'd take some responsibility for it too, workload ain't making my threads go any faster.

I'd honestly just suggest to close this thread, and try to coordinate a more comprehensive thread to be made to tackle the greater problems with the rating system as a whole, since whatever conclusion we come up with is going to be made redundant or worse and more likely, overturned by that thread.

I genuinely don't think anyone is really arguing for a 1-A rating here for reasons beyond "these random fuckos he scales to also have those ratings"

 

[The_Impress]

And to make any biases clear, I am NOT saying this because I want to retain the 1-A rating in any way. It is genuinely ******* terrible and anyone who thinks the rating is legit hasn't read a comic and their only exposure to them are respect threads or shitty death battle fanblogs. I used to post this and the Wolverine rating on my server to show off how ******* dogshit the ratings in Marvel have become, and it is a point of humiliation for the wiki that shit like that ever got passed, imo.

But if I want to get rid of the rating, I want it done to completion, rather than selectively targetting wank. So this has to be a part of the greater 1-A downgrade if it is to be done in any way that's worthwhile.

 

[GG55HH]

And to make any biases clear, I am NOT saying this because I want to retain the 1-A rating in any way. It is genuinely ******* terrible and anyone who thinks the rating is legit hasn't read a comic and their only exposure to them are respect threads or shitty death battle fanblogs. I used to post this and the Wolverine rating on my server to show off how ******* dogshit the ratings in Marvel have become, and it is a point of humiliation for the wiki that shit like that ever got passed, imo.

But if I want to get rid of the rating, I want it done to completion, rather than selectively targetting wank. So this has to be a part of the greater 1-A downgrade if it is to be done in any way that's worthwhile.

Can I get a link to your server

 

[Agnaa]

I'd honestly just suggest to close this thread, and try to coordinate a more comprehensive thread to be made to tackle the greater problems with the rating system as a whole, since whatever conclusion we come up with is going to be made redundant or worse and more likely, overturned by that thread.

As someone who knows almost nothing about Marvel, I have no idea where to begin with this, or who would be a viable co-ordinator for this.

 

[The_Impress]

I can help coordinate it, if people are willing to assist, I suppose.

 

[Excellence616]

I can help coordinate it, if people are willing to assist, I suppose.

I am willing to help

 

[Shadowslaya!]

What a strange but interesting rating.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Impress here, and am willing to help out with input at least.

 

[FroYoSans]

I heavily agree with this, and to add more, I think we should also check anti feats for the cosmology, especially the ones equal to or above 1-A. For example, the 5th dimension which is currently accepted as 1-A+ on this wiki, has statements for being a higher mathematical dimension and having an extra spatial axis or the source wall which is higher into 1-A+ on this wiki, has statements suggesting that it has 6-dimensional space. These are simply few examples which I could think of, there might be more but I think my point is understandable. Same applies for Marvel.

The initials upgrades for the verse only passed a few months ago and the scaling on the profiles has barely changed at all, we need to fix the profiles for each character and their scaling first before constantly changing the cosmology for these verses. DC especially