Canon Old Ben Kenobi vs Canon Dooku

[LordWhis]

The Battle of the white beards ! Have at thee!

 

[BruceTheBatman]

tbh, I think Dooku should bigh High 7-A


but regardless, Kenobi takes this.

Vader >= Kenobi

Vader > Dooku

 

[The_Archdemon]

I'll never understand what happened with Dooku. He defeated Kenobi single handed in the same scene where he loses to Anakin. Later, the same Anakin and the same Kenobi struggle. This is the iconic battle from where Kenobi emerges as the winner.

Now, let me see:

Dooku beats Kenobi single handed.

Anakin "beats" Dooku.

Then, Kenobi beats Anakin.

????

PIS, that's my answer.

Anyway, Dooku was able to put a decent fight with Yoda. I think it should not be ignored.

My money is on Dooku.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I agree tbh

Dooku beat Kenobi by surprise. Pretty sure that's still canon (In legends Kenobi's TK defenses weren't up).

Regardless, Kenobi stalemated Vader who is in both canons > Dooku, so voting him. In Canon Old Ben seems stronger

 

[ElectroSpino]

All in lightsaber forms. The reason Obi Wan beat Anakin was almost purly he was not as angry and overconfident as Anakin. He was basically an equal to Anakin in every way. They stalemated in a force push, and spent thousands of hours sparring with each other that they nearly predicted each others moves much easier than normal. Anakin's rage made him more arrogent that led to his loss. The first Dooku fight against Obi Wan, Obi wasn't as profecent in his use of Soresu. In his second fight he lost because Soresu's viability is greatly hindered in a 2v1. My vote goes to Ben, Anakin defeated Dooku in a 1v1 as a master of Soresu, I'm assuming Obi's use of lightsaber combat hasn't been hindered (doubt it since he defeated Darth maul in 2-3 slashes). Unless Dooku manages a suprise force attack, then Ben takes it.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Actually, Anakin beat Dooku not as a Master of Soresu but as a Master of Djem So. Djem So is a style that Dooku has problems with due to the fact of how much kinetic forces Djem So strike generate. Dooku's Maakashi Form is not meant to meet brute force head on but to deflect and subvert it. He's also much older and doesn't have nearly as much strength to match Anakin. Also, due to that, he has worse stamina. Even worse, his Dun Moch backfired. He made Anakin angrier, which Anakin fueled into his attacks, making him more powerful.

Against, Ben he's still facing the several problems. Ben is familiar with his style of combat. Ben is 57 while Dooku is 83. So while Ben's past his prime, he's still got more in him than Dooku. So really, Ben knows wha to expect and is in better shape due to age alone.

I see Ben taking this.

 

[LordWhis]

I thought by pitting High 7-A Kenobi against a 7-B Dooku I would have a thread full of people saying that Kenobi stomps to be able to quote to Dooku fanboys but people are actually arguing for dooku here.

The Kenobi low balling is real !

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I thought by pitting High 7-A Kenobi against a 7-B Dooku I would have a thread full of people saying that Kenobi stomps to be able to quote to Dooku fanboys but people are actually arguing for dooku here.
The Kenobi low balling is real !

Not really.

Both have an "At least 7-C" rating. You do not specify that Dooku is 7-B and Kenobi is 7-A. I would also assume that most us chose to go with them both being 7-C due to the fact that the other is outcome is a stomp.

That would leave little point to this thread.

 

[LordWhis]

Not really.

Both have an "At least 7-C" rating. You do not specify that Dooku is 7-B and Kenobi is 7-A. I would also assume that most us chose to go with them both being 7-C due to the fact that the other is outcome is a stomp.

That would leave little point to this thread.

I see, is that how At least ratings work ? Interesting.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@LordWhis

Well it depends. 'At least' denotes the lowest cap that a character qualifies for. Basically, it says that a character should be around for this level but the site isn't sure EXACTLY where they sit. The 'Likely' part is a hypothetical statement. There's some evidence that points in a character being of that level but there is no 100% proof to just give them that rating. Kharn the Betrayer is a good example of this.

When having characters with those tags, either version can be used, but it should be noted what version is being used for the match.

 

[LordWhis]

I see, thanks.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Actually, Anakin beat Dooku not as a Master of Soresu but as a Master of Djem So. Djem So is a style that Dooku has problems with due to the fact of how much kinetic forces Djem So strike generate. Dooku's Maakashi Form is not meant to meet brute force head on but to deflect and subvert it. He's also much older and doesn't have nearly as much strength to match Anakin. Also, due to that, he has worse stamina. Even worse, his Dun Moch backfired. He made Anakin angrier, which Anakin fueled into his attacks, making him more powerful.

Against, Ben he's still facing the several problems. Ben is familiar with his style of combat. Ben is 57 while Dooku is 83. So while Ben's past his prime, he's still got more in him than Dooku. So really, Ben knows wha to expect and is in better shape due to age alone.

I see Ben taking this.

But why does beating someone in lightsaber combat qualify as being generlly superior in the Force (which is what matter in SW, since I cannot see any Jedi or Sith destroying a City with a lightsaber blow lol)?

 

[The_Archdemon]

By God, Dooku's Force Lightning matched Yoda's Tutaminis. We saw him having got problems to deflect/absorb it. Also, it was stated in the movie that "the contest could not be decided by an analysis in the Force". For goodness, it has to be worth of something.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@TheOwnMagic

There's nothing to say that Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi with the Force at this point in their lives. so this will come down to swordsmanship.

At that point, Ben is better suited when you compare them physically. If Ben is a step or two past his physical prime, Dooku is at least 3 steps. Sure, both of them my empower themselves with the Force but that only last so long, so Dooku is more than likely going to tire out first. That was a big reason he lost the Duel on the Invisible Hand: fatique.

Dooku's lighting is a non-issue for Ben unless he's disarmed of his lightsaber. Because, otherwise, this is what's going to happen. Just like the first time they dueled.

Additionally, Ben is familiar with Dooku's methods as they have fought multiple times through the Clone Wars. While Dooku will be with familiar with Ben, Ben has changed in the last few decades, meaning that Dooku insight into his fighting style and M.O. will not be nearly as helpful.

Finally, whether you can see a Jedi or Sith dealing City Busting blows physically or not, is irrelevant. They can generate that much force through Force Empowerment.

 

[The_Archdemon]

@TheOwnMagic

There's nothing to say that Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi with the Force at this point in their lives. so this will come down to swordsmanship.

Did Ben's ability with the Force match anyone comparable to Yoda? Because, you see, Dooku matched Yoda himself. Anyway, I'll not keep hitting the same key. I'll not be able to convince you, I bet, but I'll at least keep my money on Dooku.

 

[The_Archdemon]

And I do not remember Dooku tiring. He could contente with both, Obi-Wan and Anakin multiple times. Also, he fought with Yoda, who, albeit older than him, is much faster. Put Yoda against Ben and I do not think it would last. I bet he has the edge for the physical abilitites.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Let's be real, age is borderline irrelevant for Force users. Dooku is in his 80's and yet he's noted to be more fit and agile than men less than half his age.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Only Mace himself ever mastered it, and it was reckoned that only Master Yoda and Dooku were ever able to match Windu with a lightsaber.
	~ Star Wars: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #25​

- I'm not very good determining if something is Canon, but it is under Lucas Licensing, so... -

It says there that Dooku could content even with Windu himself. I'll make a CRT about Dooku later, but anyway, his skill is nowhere under Ben's. IIRC, Ben's age made him slow, while Dooku's didn't.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Don't. Tier 4 Dooku has been debunked repeatedly.

 

[The_Archdemon]

It is very difficult to understand, you see. It is repeatedly stated that Dooku was one of the greatest Force Users in the series. He dueled with Yoda, with Windu and there is even a scene where is said that Palpatine said that Dooku should hold back while facing Anakin. Anyway, if it is a consensus to ignore this, I'll just drop the subject.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Don't. Tier 4 Dooku has been debunked repeatedly.

 

[The_Archdemon]

It is very difficult to understand, you see. It is repeatedly stated that Dooku was one of the greatest Force Users in the series. He dueled with Yoda, with Windu and there is even a scene where is said that Palpatine said that Dooku should hold back while facing Anakin. Anyway, if it is a consensus to ignore this, I'll just drop the subject.

 

[LordWhis]

Anakin is only 7-B mind you, being stronger than him does not mean he can take on High 7-A beings like Kenobi,Sidious & Yoda.

 

[The_Archdemon]

But Dooku has already fought with Yoda and Windu themselves and Yoda himself said that Dooku was his best apprentice. I can't believe you just ignore all of it. But ehh, we'll get to nowhere with this.