Bypassing Pages or Durability Negation revision idea

[Valxxroyz]

I think, we should make a bypass pages and explain how's bypass works. By which i mean it should be separated from the Durability Negation page.

Why? I'll give a simple analogy:

Imagine there's a big wall infront of 2 characters, and both characters must go through the walls without destroying it.

The first character banished the wall and go through it without destroying the wall, just to remind you, after he banished the wall and go through. The wall came back to its normal condition like nothing happened. This is how's Negation works to an object.

The second character just go through the wall like a ghost or jump-off the wall without affecting the wall, yeah bypassing. By the definition of Durability Negation it is Negating the durability, and for some ability that go through the durability without affecting the ‘durability’ itself i think it should be called “Bypass Durability.”

What do you guys think?

 

[Voidnether]

I think, we should make a bypass pages and explain how's bypass works. By which i mean it should be separated from the Durability Negation page.

Why? I'll give a simple analogy:

Imagine there's a big wall infront of 2 characters, and both characters must go through the walls without destroying it.

The first character banished the wall and go through it without destroying the wall, just to remind you, after he banished the wall and go through. The wall came back to its normal condition like nothing happened. This is how's Negation works to an object.

The second character just go through the wall like a ghost or jump-off the wall without affecting the wall, yeah bypassing. By the definition of Durability Negation it is Negating the durability, and for some ability that go through the durability without affecting the ‘durability’ itself i think it should be called “Bypass Durability.”

What do you guys think?

I think it's redundant tbh, we have characters like Yogiri in which he has this kind of description:

Resistance/Immunity Negation: Yogiri's power is capable of completely bypassing immunity and resistance towards instant death abilities.[99][100] No matter how much defenses or resistances to instant death a person has, it is all meaningless in front of Yogiri.[101]

It's said that he's able to bypass immunity but at the same time in the next context it's moreof like he's being able to negate it. In this context, I'm pretty sure we already have an explanation about Resistance Negation here:

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered." Further, resisting a layered ability is an indication of layered resistance, so on and so forth. An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance. Crucially this is not the same as resistance negation, which overcomes resistance via a special additional ability rather than the hax itself being more powerful.

So yeah, I don't really think we need it if fiction generally treats them like this regardless.. But, I'll see what others think about this (if they want to give inputs, ofc).

 

[Voidnether]

Bypass is a wide term, and to understand what I meant I think it's best for you to read this thread as Invulnerability is basically the same thing as Immunity (like the one I explained earlier with Yogiri):

How to bypass Invulnerability?

Suppose a 2-C and a 2-B fight each other but the 2-B has Invulerability as it's ability. What abilities would the 2-C have to have to bypass Invulnerability? Thanks for reading.

vsbattles.com

Invulnerability makes you immune to physical damage. As such it does not block soul and mind based attacks. Abilities like reality warping, conceptual manipulation and others can also bypass it. Sealing can also be considered a way of bypassing it.

A powerful reality warper / conceptual manipulator can theoretically negate the opponents invulnerability. Certain types of power nullification can do so as well. In that case they can be damaged with regular physical attacks as well.

The context "bypass" here isn't being used for simply ignoring them, but rather "negating" like how it's explained for Resistance Negation above. And it's also supported by how fiction treats them..

Though I gotta say on this "bypass" context, I think I'm the first person here to bring up the term "bypass immunity" lol, don't know how relevant this is but okay. And yeah, mind you this term is too vague looking back at it now since it's just practically negation and things

Bypass Immunity vs Layering

I'll just keep this straightforward, so Yogiri has this explanation: Resistance/Immunity Negation: Yogiri's power is capable of completely bypassing immunity and resistance towards instant death abilities.[99][100] No matter how much defenses or resistances to instant death a person has, it is...

vsbattles.com

 

[SweetDao]

It's said that he's able to bypass immunity but at the same time in the next context it's moreof like he's being able to negate it.

Wasn't aware of this ngl, this should go...

 

[Voidnether]

Wasn't aware of this ngl, this should go...

LMAO

 

[Valxxroyz]

Bypass is a wide term, and to understand what I meant I think it's best for you to read this thread as Invulnerability is basically the same thing as Immunity (like the one I explained earlier with Yogiri):

How to bypass Invulnerability?

Suppose a 2-C and a 2-B fight each other but the 2-B has Invulerability as it's ability. What abilities would the 2-C have to have to bypass Invulnerability? Thanks for reading.

vsbattles.com

The context "bypass" here isn't being used for simply ignoring them, but rather "negating" like how it's explained for Resistance Negation above. And it's also supported by how fiction treats them..

Though I gotta say on this "bypass" context, I think I'm the first person here to bring up the term "bypass immunity" lol, don't know how relevant this is but okay. And yeah, mind you this term is too vague looking back at it now since it's just practically negation and things

Bypass Immunity vs Layering

I'll just keep this straightforward, so Yogiri has this explanation: Resistance/Immunity Negation: Yogiri's power is capable of completely bypassing immunity and resistance towards instant death abilities.[99][100] No matter how much defenses or resistances to instant death a person has, it is...

vsbattles.com

Kinda agree with you, but i think this should works with the bypass cases, and i dont think you were the first one to bring the term bypass immunity here. I once made a post about the difference between Bypass Immunity and Negation, and yeah both of them are different. So i think we should make an explanation pages for some cases like Yogiri's ability.

 

[Voidnether]

Kinda agree with you, but i think this should works with the bypass cases, and i dont think you were the first one to bring the term bypass immunity here. I once made a post about the difference between Bypass Immunity and Negation, and yeah both of them are different. So i think we should make an explanation pages for some cases like Yogiri's ability.

Honestly if an explanation page is required, it's best if that's basically left to the staff or well you could ask one to make a staff discussion thread about it since it's just my inputs here

About the term itself, that's why I said I'm the first one to bring it here like on this wiki (search about the term, and it's basically just my thread since it was a hypothesis anyways) as I've heard about it off-site before. And if that was you, well.. I guess this is just how it's treated on the wiki tbh

 

[Valxxroyz]

Oh and also, why im making this post? Because there are some people here/outside who thinks the mechanism of Negation & Bypass is the same, that's why.

 

[SweetDao]

Oh and also, why im making this post? Because there are some people here/outside who thinks the mechanism of Negation & Bypass is the same, that's why.

I mean, you could always ask a staff if it's worth making a staff thread about it.

 

[Valxxroyz]

I mean, you could always ask a staff if it's worth making a staff thread about it.

Thanks for the advice

 

[GrathOfLux]

I think, we should make a bypass pages and explain how's bypass works. By which i mean it should be separated from the Durability Negation page.

Why? I'll give a simple analogy:

Imagine there's a big wall infront of 2 characters, and both characters must go through the walls without destroying it.

The first character banished the wall and go through it without destroying the wall, just to remind you, after he banished the wall and go through. The wall came back to its normal condition like nothing happened. This is how's Negation works to an object.

The second character just go through the wall like a ghost or jump-off the wall without affecting the wall, yeah bypassing. By the definition of Durability Negation it is Negating the durability, and for some ability that go through the durability without affecting the ‘durability’ itself i think it should be called “Bypass Durability.”

What do you guys think?

I could see some merit to this idea for Power Negation, but I'm not so sure if it's necessary for Durability Negation.

As you've alluded to yourself in the above example - in both cases, it has the exact same end-point. Both of them end up on the other side of an intact wall. I can think of only very niche, particular situations in which the two abilities would result in a different outcome from each other.

Perhaps I could imagine rephrasing the page to better encompass these two separate concepts if it is currently insufficient, but I don't think it's practical to have another P&A page for an ability that is effectively identical in its implications for practical use to a different ability. If you could make a compelling case for why this would be a beneficial distinction to index, I would hear it out.

 

[Valxxroyz]

I could see some merit to this idea for Power Negation, but I'm not so sure if it's necessary for Durability Negation.

As you've alluded to yourself in the above example - in both cases, it has the exact same end-point. Both of them end up on the other side of an intact wall. I can think of only very niche, particular situations in which the two abilities would result in a different outcome from each other.

Perhaps I could imagine rephrasing the page to better encompass these two separate concepts if it is currently insufficient, but I don't think it's practical to have another P&A page for an ability that is effectively identical in its implications for practical use to a different ability. If you could make a compelling case for why this would be a beneficial distinction to index, I would hear it out.

Thank you for your input. I understand that both Negation and Bypass may seem similar due to their identical end result (passing through an intact wall), the mechanisms that achieve this outcome are fundamentally different, which is why I believe the distinction matters. Lemme clarify:

Negation: This ability directly nullifies or negates the properties of the wall (e.g, the durability or existence). The wall, in essence loses its effect or value as an obstacle. The character/user is able to pass through because the wall no longer acts as a barrier.

Bypass: Bypass allows the characters to go through the wall without interacting with its properties at all. The wall’s durability remains intact, and it’s as if the user is exempted from the wall’s effects. This is more akin to ignoring the obstacle rather than nullifying it.

In Negation, the wall’s durability is rendered meaningless; imagine the wall becoming intangible, nullified, or no longer a wall. While Bypass, the wall is untouched, but the user moves through as if the wall doesn’t exist for them.

Why is this distincton important?
The answer of the difference lies in how they interact with the target (or obstacle): Negation changes the target, while Bypass avoids interacting with the target’s mechanics altogether. This has significant implications for abilities, resistances, and counters in practical scenarios.

A simple analogy, if an opponent resists Negation abilities, they could stop the wall from being nullified. However, if someone uses Bypass, that resistance would be irrelevant because the user isn’t trying to nullify the wall in the first place.


Separating these concepts helps to clarify abilities with fundamentally different mechanisms, even if the outcomes sometimes appear identical. I hope this makes the case clearer and explains why both concepts deserve proper distinction. Rephrasing the pages could work maybe.

What's your thoughts on this?

 

[GrathOfLux]

Why is this distincton important?
The answer of the difference lies in how they interact with the target (or obstacle): Negation changes the target, while Bypass avoids interacting with the target’s mechanics altogether. This has significant implications for abilities, resistances, and counters in practical scenarios.

A simple analogy, if an opponent resists Negation abilities, they could stop the wall from being nullified. However, if someone uses Bypass, that resistance would be irrelevant because the user isn’t trying to nullify the wall in the first place.


Separating these concepts helps to clarify abilities with fundamentally different mechanisms, even if the outcomes sometimes appear identical. I hope this makes the case clearer and explains why both concepts deserve proper distinction. Rephrasing the pages could work maybe.

What's your thoughts on this?

So, if I understand correctly: you believe that the distinction here would be important because of its implications for resistances. If someone can, for instance, resist the negation of barrier that they can put up to protect themselves, it would not matter if the opponent's ability allows them to simply move around the barrier, and should not be factored into this resistance.

Strictly speaking, I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect interpretation of where the boundaries of a resistance can be placed. They are products of wiki standards - we have determined that abilities which are "similar enough" to categorise under the same ability can be resisted by resistances to that broader ability. In that sense, where the boundary is placed is not based on what is true, but what is agreeable.

However, I see merit in your thoughts on this. I think this would be more relevant for power nullification than durability negation, but I think it nonetheless has relevant and reasonable implications for both abilities. You have my blessing, if you so wish, to make a staff discussion with a specific proposal for a new page (or pages) to encapsulate these ideas. If you do so, just be sure that your proposal is specific and that you have the details of the pages you would propose ironed out thoroughly.

 

[Valxxroyz]

So, if I understand correctly: you believe that the distinction here would be important because of its implications for resistances. If someone can, for instance, resist the negation of barrier that they can put up to protect themselves, it would not matter if the opponent's ability allows them to simply move around the barrier, and should not be factored into this resistance.

Strictly speaking, I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect interpretation of where the boundaries of a resistance can be placed. They are products of wiki standards - we have determined that abilities which are "similar enough" to categorise under the same ability can be resisted by resistances to that broader ability. In that sense, where the boundary is placed is not based on what is true, but what is agreeable.

However, I see merit in your thoughts on this. I think this would be more relevant for power nullification than durability negation, but I think it nonetheless has relevant and reasonable implications for both abilities. You have my blessing, if you so wish, to make a staff discussion with a specific proposal for a new page (or pages) to encapsulate these ideas. If you do so, just be sure that your proposal is specific and that you have the details of the pages you would propose ironed out thoroughly.

Thank you for your input, I will make the Userblog, and it'll be so nice if you let me open the staff discussion thread.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Thank you for your input, I will make the Userblog, and it'll be so nice if you let me open the staff discussion thread.

Let me know when you have made the user blog, then. I would be happy to review it in advance to you creating the thread if you wished.

 

[Valxxroyz]

Let me know when you have made the user blog, then. I would be happy to review it in advance to you creating the thread if you wished.

I've created the blog, would you mind rewording the blog? And let me start the discussion staff thread, thank you so much.