Bumping Up The Witch - RWBY

[SilentLyfe]

So originally I wasn't planning on doing this since I didn't think the feat was noteworthy. However, after going a bit more in depth and asking around, I believe this is more impressive than I initially thought.

So in Volume 8 episode 9, we have Yang's Group alongside Emerald escaping from Monstra after rescuing Oscar. But before they can do so they are set upon by Salem who believes they stole the Relic of Knowledge from her. She ambushes them by blasting through the sides of Monstra as shown here. Normally as stated this wouldn't be really anything worthwhile. However, this clip gives more context with the whale shaking and screeching before Salem bursts from the side, indicating that she was causing it pain. And to make sure, I asked some calc members about feats such as this and they stated that if a smaller character is able to cause a much larger one to groan or cry out in pain it counts and could be used to scale.

Because of this Salem scales to Monstra, and as the whale was recently calc'd as High 7-C, then Salem is as well. This shouldn't be too out there as she already has a possibly High 7-C on her profile, this just makes it fully. Also, as Ozma is comparable to Salem he becomes High 7-C as well.

 

[Spinoirr]

That also means the maidens are 29.14 kilotons

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This looks fine

 

[SilentLyfe]

That also means the maidens are 29.14 kilotons

I am unsure if the Maidens are affected as well, but I could be wrong.

 

[Spinoirr]

I am unsure if the Maidens are affected as well, but I could be wrong.

They would as they are 5 times weaker then Salem's AP and Prime Ozma

 

[TheRustyOne]

Disagree, let me explain why.

Salem is slightly over 1000X smaller than the Whale, and the Whale's durability/energy comes from the energy of its full body weight. Surface Area is a thing and the hole Salam makes, is far too small to scale to the durability of its entire body. Case in point, a needle can easily pierce your finger even when little pressure is applied on to it.

Paper can easily cut you even by complete accident. Yet you didn't slide your hand through it with the same energy that you punch. The size difference between Salem (1.80 meters) and the whale (1877.3 meters) is greater than the difference between the average human (68.89 Inches) and a Mosquito (0.15 Inches).

Salem is 7-C+ at the lowest (80.85 KT), and the Whale's Full Body durability is only High 7-C (145.7 KT). The difference between her AP and its durability is less than 2X. So the needle/paper comparison actually isn't needed, since the amount of energy she generates is less than 2X weaker than the energy of the entire body's durability.

If you compressed a punch's energy into something with a surface area that is many times smaller than that of a normal fist, it'd go straight through a person. Despite no energy increase happening, just a change in surface area. Salem in this case is many times smaller than the Whale and even the hole she makes is tiny compared to its size.

Her causing pain doesn't mean anything for scaling, since even a pin prick can make people cry in pain. If something small inside of your body just blasted through your muscles or made a hole in your stomach you'd feel immense pain, probably even collapse from it. But that doesn't mean the thing inside you is capable of release energy on par with your body's entire durability. Pain is highly subjective as well, and doesn't always reflect the amount of damage something has taken.

This is simple physics, she is massively smaller and is shooting out an attack that is not even 2X weaker than the energy its entire body scales to. Going straight through it like that and causing pain does not meaning scaling. Causing pain isn't proof of any scaling with giant characters, it's based on how much area they damage with their attack.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with TheRustyOne.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Rusty is correct about surface area scaling, but I think Silent might counter saying some other details.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Her causing pain doesn't mean anything for scaling, since even a pin prick can make people cry in pain. If something small inside of your body just blasted through your muscles or made a hole in your stomach you'd feel immense pain, probably even collapse from it. But that doesn't mean the thing inside you is capable of release energy on par with your body's entire durability. Pain is highly subjective as well, and doesn't always reflect the amount of damage something has taken.

This is simple physics, she is massively smaller and is shooting out an attack that is not even 2X weaker than the energy its entire body scales to. Going straight through it like that and causing pain does not meaning scaling. Causing pain isn't proof of any scaling with giant characters, it's based on how much area they damage with their attack.

Just a note regarding these points, a pin prick may cause people to cry in pain, but it is only for a mere instance. The whale in the clip was shaking and screeching for a good few seconds before Salem appeared. And considering that all of the airships in Atlas were unable to put a dent in it or cause it to cry out should indicate that she is capable of causing damage to it.

As for Surface Area, I do see your point. But at the same time, I made sure to ask some calc members about feats of smaller characters hurting much larger ones and showed the clip to make sure it was usable before making this. I can ask them to comment here and if they do disagree then I'll drop this.

 

[Jibz]

Neutral, but leaning with Silent's take.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I've seen the clip myself, I see nothing to suggest Salem scales to the energy it'd release from its entire body falling from the height of its center of gravity.

There a bullets with energy ranges less than 200 joules and still can pierce skin and cause large amounts of pain. Some people can even collapse in pain and scream for long amounts of time. So once again, pain has nothing to do with anything. Since the whale's pain tolerance isn't know, and pain is highly subjective.

The attacks from the ship don't damage it whatsoever, so of course it doesn't react to them. If something doesn't even prick your skin than it's a minor annoyance at worst.

There is no agreement to be had here, I'm stating facts. What is there to discuss, her attacks does not cover enough area to scale to it's full body durability.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Checking the size of the hole she made, I'm getting a diameter of about 5.1 meters. Compared to the whale's size (1877.3), 5.1 meters is only 0.278% the size of the whale.

Comparing that size to a human of average height 175 cm. And the size of the hole would be 4.8 millimeters. A .22 Long Rifle has a similar diameter around 5.7 millimeters, and has a kinetic energy value of 178 joules up to 277 joules. Which is only 10-A or Athlete level. Yet they do far more damage than a punch, going through skin and some organs.

So I don't see how Salem should be scaling to the energy this whale would release by falling from a height of 938.65 meters.

 

[KLOL506]

I've seen the clip myself, I see nothing to suggest Salem scales to the energy it'd release from its entire body falling from the height of its center of gravity.

There a bullets with energy ranges less than 200 joules and still can pierce skin and cause large amounts of pain. Some people can even collapse in pain and scream for long amounts of time. So once again, pain has nothing to do with anything. Since the whale's pain tolerance isn't know, and pain is highly subjective.

The attacks from the ship don't damage it whatsoever, so of course it doesn't react to them. If something doesn't even prick your skin than it's a minor annoyance at worst.

There is no agreement to be had here, I'm stating facts. What is there to discuss, her attacks does not cover enough area to scale to it's full body durability.

So uh, it needs to cause pain over large parts of the body then?

 

[TheRustyOne]

It needs to cause damage over large area of the body.

In this case I say the hole would need a diameter around 5% the size of the body. A human fist is on average 3.5 inches or 8.89 cm. Which is around 5% of the bodies height. I doubt what I'm saying is science (I admit to being dumb) especially when the durability of the whale is assuming it can fall from over 900+ meters. Half of its own height.

But we scale punching each other to a person's durability so I guess? (Look I have no idea) But using the whales size that'd mean a hole that has a diameter of 95.36 meters.

 

[KLOL506]

It needs to cause damage over large area of the body.

In this case I say the hole would need a diameter around 5% the size of the body. A human fist is on average 3.5 inches or 8.89 cm. Which is around 5% of the bodies height. I doubt what I'm saying is science (I admit to being dumb) especially when the durability of the whale is assuming it can fall from over 900+ meters. Half of its own height.

But we scale punching each other to a person's durability so I guess? (Look I have no idea) But using the whales size that'd mean a hole that has a diameter of 95.36 meters.

Yes, we do indeed scale punching each other to a person's durability if it causes visible enough harm like bruising, visible-enough cuts or if the gut-punches wind out the opponents and cause them to reel back in pain and stagger back.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I.. know we scale punches to each other. Not sure what you mean.

Are you making fun of me? This kind of sounds sarcastic and speaking like you're talking to a toddler kind of thing. If I'm looking way too deep into that, then of course I'm massively sorry for the accusation. But I have a bad feeling we aren't understanding each other here. Please know I mean no disrespect and I'm deeply ashamed, as I'm certain I'm mistaken.

I'm super dumb, so can you speak clearly to me? Can you explain if you agree or disagree, and if you disagree explain how I'm wrong. I'm not smart enough to understand anything that isn't very obvious or straight forward. But as explain, we don't scale a mosquito to a human just because they bite them.

And Salem's "damage" to the whale would be the equivalent of a 5 mm hole in the body. And since Salem's energy compared to the Whale's energy of falling from 900 meters is not even two times apart. Her making that hole with her current level of power isn't reason for scaling to the whale's falling durability.

Also is GPE really accurate, considering the GPE of a human falling is 9-C and we don't scale ourselves to that?

 

[Damage3245]

What you're saying makes sense to me Rusty.

 

[KLOL506]

I.. know we scale punches to each other. Not sure what you mean.

Are you making fun of me? This kind of sounds sarcastic and speaking like you're talking to a toddler kind of thing. If I'm looking way too deep into that, then of course I'm massively sorry for the accusation. But I have a bad feeling we aren't understanding each other here. Please know I mean no disrespect and I'm deeply ashamed, as I'm certain I'm mistaken.

No, of course not, I never intended to, if it rubbed you in the wrong way, I apologize in advance.

I'm super dumb, so can you speak clearly to me? Can you explain if you agree or disagree, and if you disagree explain how I'm wrong. I'm not smart enough to understand anything that isn't very obvious or straight forward. But as explain, we don't scale a mosquito to a human just because they bite them.

Wasn't talking about the whale, was just talking about how we scale durability to AP based on who properly trades blows with who.

 

[TheRustyOne]

No need to apologies for my own anxiety getting the better of me. I was kind of split on what your reply meant, I have a habit of either responding instantly without thinking or thinking way too much and getting lost. But I appreciate your tolerance for what I wrote down.

But I'll stop now, as I don't want to derail this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Is there something I'm missing? Because if a character is able to hurt another character enough to make them yell out in pain, regardless of their size, they should scale

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’m in agreement with TheRustyOne.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Is there something I'm missing? Because if a character is able to hurt another character enough to make them yell out in pain, regardless of their size, they should scale

Yelling out in pain doesn't always equal damage. Since pain tolerance is highly subjective. Some people cry out from a prick on the finger, which doesn't scale to someone's durability. Like I mentioned above the damage Salem inflicted on the whale is equivalent to a 5 mm (Diameter) hole in your skin. Painful, depending on the person yes, but scaling to full body durability? The energy generated from falling? No I can't agree with that, as surface area in relation to the energy should be taken into consideration.

Reacting in pain shouldn't be a factor here, since if it didn't feel pain at all and didn't scream that means she wouldn't scale? Even though the damage she inflicted is still the same regardless of its sense of pain. I cannot really agree with that. Her current AP is not even 2X weaker than the whale's full body durability.

So her causing this level of injury to it shouldn't be unreasonable with her current AP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yelling out in pain doesn't always equal damage. Since pain tolerance is highly subjective. Some people cry out from a prick on the finger, which doesn't scale to someone's durability. Like I mentioned above the damage Salem inflicted on the whale is equivalent to a 5 mm (Diameter) hole in your skin. Painful, depending on the person yes, but scaling to full body durability? The energy generated from falling? No I can't agree with that, as surface area in relation to the energy should be taken into consideration.

Reacting in pain shouldn't be a factor here, since if it didn't feel pain at all and didn't scream that means she wouldn't scale? Even though the damage she inflicted is still the same regardless of its sense of pain. I cannot really agree with that. Her current AP is not even 2X weaker than the whale's full body durability.

So her causing this level of injury to it shouldn't be unreasonable with her current AP.

Equating this to real life ain't the best example when in general media, a huge indicator of actual pain is when a character screams in pain. I know reality needs to be factored in to some degree, but this is very iffy.

Maybe it's worth comparing the kinds of attacks this whale can take without concern and see where this measures up?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Honestly, gonna go neutral on this despite me saying I agreed. Mainly because I didn't realize how small the hole was in comparison to the Monstra.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Admittedly, purely based on writers' intent, does any writer in the show believe any character is comparable in strength or power to the whale? I can't imagine they would.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Admittedly, purely based on writers' intent, does any writer in the show believe any character is comparable in strength or power to the whale? I can't imagine they would.

Well throughout the Volume, besides Salem the only thing that actually damaged it was the stored energy in the weapon used by Oscar and that fully destroyed it.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

So you're saying this Salem character could damage it and some weapon could completely destroy the whale? I'm not sure why you mentioned the weapon, it probably doesn't scale to anything else but itself, right?

Either way that doesn't really answer my question on writers' intent. You could ask them if they think Salem is stronger than this whale thingy, though I doubt they'd answer or care. I'm unsure on the scaling here.

 

[SilentLyfe]

So you're saying this Salem character could damage it and some weapon could completely destroy the whale? I'm not sure why you mentioned the weapon, it probably doesn't scale to anything else but itself, right?

Either way that doesn't really answer my question on writers' intent. You could ask them if they think Salem is stronger than this whale thingy, though I doubt they'd answer or care. I'm unsure on the scaling here.

I just mentioned the weapon cause you said which character and they used it to destroy it. But yes, Salem was the only character on screen to visibly damage it and I doubt the writers would answer if they’re questioned about that.

 

[KLOL506]

Honestly, gonna go neutral on this despite me saying I agreed. Mainly because I didn't realize how small the hole was in comparison to the Monstra.

I think I'll go neutral for the same reason. I thought the wound was some large, life-threatening injury.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

The points against it make sense to me, I don't think Salem should scale to this, or even the creature's GBE.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Honestly, at this point I don’t think I’ll be able to pass this, so if there are no other points to be made this can be closed.