Bleach True Shikai Ichigo Calc

[Damage3245]

This is a Calc Group Member's thread in order to determine which version out of two calcs for True Shikai Ichigo's speed should be used.

The first calc is one by USklaverei and is currently in use on the verse page and Ichigo's profile and has a result of Mach 218551.8 / 0.24 c (Relativistic).

The second calc is my re-calc of the same feat with the low end result being accepted as Mach 4042.15 (Massively Hypersonic+).

The principle difference is that instead of scaling the distance ofone of the closest arrows to Ichigo in order to find the timeframe that Ichigo must have moved within in order to deflect all of the arrows, I scaled one of the furthest away arrows from Ichigo on the basis that it would be more logical to deflect the projectiles closer to you before the ones further away from you if multiple projectiles were approaching you.

The second significant difference is that I used a low-end for Candice's arrow speed (and by extension the arrow speeds of the other girls shooting at Ichigo), using support from the novels which make a point that her lightning-infused arrows are much slower than actual lightning even if they can be described with "lightning speed".

I do believe that the calc should be replace with the re-calc but I would welcome input from other Calc Group Members to see if this should be the case.

Relevant Novel quotes:

1. Candice's Arrow Speed:

[ What came flying towards them was a horizontal flash of lightning.

To be precise, it was an extremely ferocious looking single arrow, completely entwined
in high voltage lighting.

“Hey, hey, seriously?”

Although it is far slower than an actual lightning strike, this arrowhead of spiritual-
matter still came flying at a rate worthy enough to be called 'lightning speed’. ]

Candice's arrows are far slower than an actual lightning strike.

2. Candice's Arrow Speed V2:

[ “Ha… awfully slow for lightning wasn’t it? It seems impossible but, that couldn’t
possibly have been a lethal assassination technique just now could it?” ]

Ginjo commenting on Candice's arrows above. Even he is pointing out how slow her arrows are compared to actual lightning.

3. Candice's Electrocution

[ With those brutal words, small bolts of lightning extended into the sky from her raised
hand —- a genuine lightning strike not entangled in an arrow came rushing down
towards GINJÔ and the others with a thunderous rumble. ]

Candice uses her Electrocution technique after her arrows were deflected by Ginjo. It is specifically noted to be a genuine lightning strike, not attached to her arrows.

4. Candice's Electrocution V2

[ Although her might has significantly weakened now that she has lost the power of her
vollständig, the blow from her “Electrocution” still far surpasses any lightning in the
realm of nature. ]

This quote is specifically about her power and her 'Electrocution' technique. It is saying that even though she's not as powerful as she was when she had her Vollstandig transformation, the AP from her "Electrocution" technique is better than any natural lightning bolt. Nothing about speed is mentioned here.

5. Conclusions

From these passages we have the conclusions:

1) Candice's arrows are far slower than her lightning strikes - but still worthy of being called "lightning speed" so low-end lightning speed makes more sense to assume for them.

2) The power of her Electrocution technique (which is an actual lightning bolt, not entangled with her arrows) is lessened, but no mention is made of the speed being different.

3) No mention is made of her arrow speed being affected by the loss of her Vollstandig transformation.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

It's already stated on the same novels that she became less powerful/slower cus YH took their powers with aushwalen


So o would go with USK due to him using the feat of the war arc meaning that he is using candice when she had "her" full power

While the 2nd one tries to connect her to her weaker form after the war arc which is not when the feat happened

The recalc is basically trying to put war arc candice = post war candice

Which does not really work as I stated before, due to Her becoming weaker/slower thanks to aushwalen

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; I haven't seen where in the novel it states that her arrows are any slower. Can you point that out?

The arrow speed is not the only difference either.

Also, this is a Calc Group Member's thread. If you have useful information, please share it with me - but this thread is technially supposed to be for CGM's to determine which calc is more suitable for use.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Didn't she also lose her Voltstanding, wasn't she using it when she tried to fight Ichigo? Also isn't Ichigo just playing with the girls? When he literally is supposed to be fighting characters above what is being suggested?

 

[Damage3245]

@Dangai_Ichigo; this is not the thread for scaling. This is just determining which calc should be used.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Why does the re calc completely fail to mention the fact that the arrows Candice fires during the war arc to have the same energy as lightning bolts? She spams cloud to ground, has the same energy in her attacks, sees said arrow doesn’t do anything and proceeds to fire more arrows (meaning she wouldn’t fire weaker arrows). The recalc is plainly disingenuous and leaving out important information all while trying to scale a verbatim weaker version of a character to their prime.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; I haven't seen where in the novel it states that her arrows are any slower. Can you point that out?

The arrow speed is not the only difference either.

Also, this is a Calc Group Member's thread. If you have useful information, please share it with me - but this thread is technially supposed to be for CGM's to determine which calc is more suitable for use.

“Electrocution”, which talks about the technique as:

"Although her might has significantly weakened now that she has lost the power of her Vollständig, the blow from her “Electrocution” still far surpasses any lightning in the realm of nature."

This seems to be referring to power, but we have another quote:

"The thunderstorm which even surpasses nature’s lightning, was mostly absorbed into the ground through the large tree, meanwhile the flank attack generated by the thunderstorm was repelled in the same fashion as before by the big sword in the possession of the man with the black jacket."

It does not seem to be about power, but only in general. Thunder clouds and sounds are also referenced several times and we still have a Giriko speech that supports this:

"Hmm, although it is often misinterpreted, the speed of lightning is far less than the speed of light. However, since it is influenced by factors such as air humidity and atmospheric pressure, those numerical values have a tendency to change. Good heavens, speed is truly an ambiguous thing compared to the flow of time isn’t it?"

 

[TheRustyOne]

If the statements above are true about the speed of her attacks, than the High-End of Damage's calc should be used.

Also both ends use the speed of lightning, just that lightning speed isn't a constant and can be slower or faster than what we use.

Note: That USklaverei version is scaling to the wrong arrow, by using the closest arrow the results are slightly inflated. Damage is using the farthest which makes it more accurate.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Rusty

Isn’t it because he’s looking at that arrow in particular or am I misunderstanding? If you look at Sklaveri’s calc.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

If the statements above are true about the speed of her attacks, than the High-End of Damage's calc should be used.

Also both ends use the speed of lightning, just that lightning speed isn't a constant and can be slower or faster than what we use.

Note: That USklaverei version is scaling to the wrong arrow, by using the closest arrow the results are slightly inflated. Damage is using the farthest which makes it more accurate.

Yes, she lost a big chunk of her power overall due to YH

Also agreed with the high end

 

[Damage3245]

@TheRustyOne; the quotes provided by TOAA are misleading.

@TOAAPRESENCE1; the quote you've brought up is about her Electrocution technique. The calc however is for her arrows which are explicitly much slower than her Electrocution technique.

Have you actually read the quotes I supplied for her arrows?

 

[Damage3245]

1. Candice's Arrow Speed:

[ What came flying towards them was a horizontal flash of lightning.

To be precise, it was an extremely ferocious looking single arrow, completely entwined
in high voltage lighting.

“Hey, hey, seriously?”

Although it is far slower than an actual lightning strike, this arrowhead of spiritual-
matter still came flying at a rate worthy enough to be called 'lightning speed’. ]

Candice's arrows are far slower than an actual lightning strike.

2. Candice's Arrow Speed V2:

[ “Ha… awfully slow for lightning wasn’t it? It seems impossible but, that couldn’t
possibly have been a lethal assassination technique just now could it?” ]

Ginjo commenting on Candice's arrows above. Even he is pointing out how slow her arrows are compared to actual lightning.

3. Candice's Electrocution

[ With those brutal words, small bolts of lightning extended into the sky from her raised
hand —- a genuine lightning strike not entangled in an arrow came rushing down
towards GINJÔ and the others with a thunderous rumble. ]

Candice uses her Electrocution technique after her arrows were deflected by Ginjo. It is specifically noted to be a genuine lightning strike, not attached to her arrows.

4. Candice's Electrocution V2

[ Although her might has significantly weakened now that she has lost the power of her
vollständig, the blow from her “Electrocution” still far surpasses any lightning in the
realm of nature. ]

This quote is specifically about her power and her 'Electrocution' technique. It is saying that even though she's not as powerful as she was when she had her Vollstandig transformation, the AP from her "Electrocution" technique is better than any natural lightning bolt. Nothing about speed is mentioned here.

5. Conclusions

From these passages we have the conclusions:

1) Candice's arrows are far slower than her lightning strikes - but still worthy of being called "lightning speed" so low-end lightning speed makes more sense to assume for them.

2) The power of her Electrocution technique (which is an actual lightning bolt, not entangled with her arrows) is lessened, but no mention is made of the speed being different.

3) No mention is made of her arrow speed being affected by the loss of her Vollstandig transformation.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This is ridiculous. You’re trying to scale her weakened state to her prime state and somehow you came to the conclusion she isn’t nerfed. Her lightning was all around nerfed after Yhwach.
You don’t need to be spoonfed information.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I mentioned about it on my electrocution comment


"This seems to be referring to power, but we have another quote:"

"The thunderstorm which even surpasses nature’s lightning, was mostly absorbed into the ground through the large tree, meanwhile the flank attack generated by the thunderstorm was repelled in the same fashion as before by the big sword in the possession of the man with the black jacket."

It does not seem to be about power, but only in general. Thunder clouds and sounds are also referenced several times and we still have a Giriko speech that supports this:

"Hmm, although it is often misinterpreted, the speed of lightning is far less than the speed of light. However, since it is influenced by factors such as air humidity and atmospheric pressure, those numerical values have a tendency to change. Good heavens, speed is truly an ambiguous thing compared to the flow of time isn’t it?"
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

This is ridiculous. You’re trying to scale her weakened state to her prime state and somehow you came to the conclusion she isn’t nerfed. Her lightning was all around nerfed after Yhwach.
You don’t need to be spoonfed information.

Which I mention in my comment, he is trying to say war arc candice = post war candice

When this is not the case

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; yes, and I'm saying that those passages are irrelevant to the calc, as I laid out in my breakdown of the passages up above.

@Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye; We can draw the conclusion that her AP was nerfed. Nowhere was it mentioned that the speed of her arrows was affected.

EDIT: You've both said your piece on it, now stop derailing or I'll have to remove additional comments to keep this thread on track.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Damage is correct

 

[TheRustyOne]

As I am not knowledgeable in Bleach I'm going by what is stated in this thread.

Please note Damage's version is still more accurate due to him measuring the distance from the farthest arrow, what matters here is what end is accepted.

From what I'm gathering she can shoot an arrow that's lightning speed, though is slower than actual lightning, but she can also call down real lightning that's superior to ones found in nature.

Regardless of her power, her arrows are indeed slower than her actual lightning attacks.

In that case the Low-End is correct as originally stated in the comments.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I wanna say if you use the closest arrow and then just one arm movement (33.05m/21) you get like Mach 6000 using the low-end method of yours.

 

[Ovy7]

Actually, looking at chapter 581, Candice uses an attack with the power of IRL lightning (5 gigajoules) so likely an actual lightning attack, only for Lilltoto to call said attack as Heilig Pfeil, Sacred Arrow, the same attacks used in feat calculated. So the arrows in the feat here are likely lightning speed.

And as other had said, the statement from the novel is for a version of Candice weaker than the one used in the calc itself.

 

[Damage3245]

@Ovy7; the figure I used is still lightning speed. And weaker does not necessarily mean that her arrows are slower.

 

[Ovy7]

It also doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't slower. When her powers are all about lightning, it would make sense for that to be the case if she is weaker.

 

[Damage3245]

@Ovy7; right, so in the absence of any statement proving that her arrows are any slower than they were during the War arc, I'm simply going to treat it as an irrelevant factor and concentrate on the information that we do have.

 

[Ovy7]

I've just posted a scan from the war arc where we see that her arrows are lightning, yet in the sequel novel, where she is weaker, her arrows aren't lightning. This to me proves that her arrows in the novel are indeed slower than in the war arc.

 

[Damage3245]

@Ovy7; you do know that lightning doesn't have one set speed, right?

Let's put it like this okay; her arrows have 5 Gigajoules of energy (hilariously weak, but let's ignore this) so you assume that they have lightning speed. "Lightning speed" isn't actually a single value. We just use an average value of it on this wiki in the absence of any better options.

Now, her arrows in the novel are confirmed to be slower than actual lightning bolts she uses, such as her Electrocution technique, so that means we can reasonably assume that although her arrows can be described as "lightning speed", they're on the low end compared to actual lightning strikes.

Therefore the result is using the low end of the calc, which assumes a lower end of lightning speed than her actual lightning strikes.

You might not be happy with this, but this is the best result taking in all of the available information into account.

Now, I will leave this open for any other Calc Group Members to give their input. I will have to remove other comments.