I feel like this is an argument that your iffy speed scaling takes priority over the manga canon as opposed to the anime contradicting it, as the anime still frames Ichigo as taking a fairly long time to arrive to the Sereitei. The manga timeframe doesn’t make him ridiculously slow your proposal does, hence why you have to account for the timeframe. It’s not contradictory to anything but your proposed distance.
Pretty sure that's not how it works. The anime is the primary canon, yes, but the manga is still an important source. The anime not showing the timeframe simply means we fall back on the manga's depiction. It isn't suddenly in type of "maybe it does or doesn't exist" limbo.
You can argue the seals prevent him from doing it but his reiatsu did already cross dimensions
idk if anyone responded to this or not but the raws say space not dimension, ik some people here require the latter to be stated for spatiotemporal separation and dont consider just space to mean its another dimension (especially if shit physically falls from there) if someone commented this before ill delete my commentYes, it is
Such an "important" to the plot/timeframe and "intentional" clock that the anime that has Kubo's involvement and is the primary canon decided to completely remove it.
Jesus Christ do you people not know how animation work? It not being there doesn’t mean what you think it does.
I mean maybe not showing the clock now is kubos way of dissmising what he originally wrote for something he thinks makes more sense / is better?
That’s not how it works… i just explained it. The manga is supporting canon. Unless it’s blatantly contradicted the manga is fine to use.
well no you just gave YOUR OWN take, and i gave mine, We dont know the true reason 100%.
YOUR claim, not mine, is that it was something Kubo did intentionally because he wanted to show the viewers that. He'd not be on board with removing a background he considered important to the point of (by your claim) intentionally show a timeframe he wanted the viewers to know despite not caring about backgrounds/visuals normally. Remember that YOUR ENTIRE CLAIM is already claiming the clock is an exception to Kubo's usual view on backgrounds/visuals. Why don't you treat the clouds visuals (which are way more consistent, kept in the anime, and are not contradicted narratively) as absolute evidence that Kubo very clearly intended it to be not over thousands of kilometers away from the surface. Or the spirit wall?
Nobody said all that
6000 seconds is not a new timeframe. This is what Yhwach said in the manga. This is dead ass not new. We knew this a decade ago.
But I already know that still will not be enough, so I also want to address that Issue 6 still stands: Ichigo did not take 9.25 hours to travel.
The current basis for the "9.25 hours" is not a direct statement or fixed timeframe. It comes from looking at a background clock at the beginning and when Ichigo lands, then combining that with the earlier statement that the invasion began three hours before Ichigo started traveling.
(Keep in mind, the clock images are separated by 39 chapters)
Treating that as some absolute, canonically stated timeframe is ridiculous, especially in a series where statements exist about the creator not taking visuals and backgrounds strictly alongside saying they "don't matter much", and aren't even made by him.
A background clock visual is not more reliable than blatant, repeated visuals showing the Palace is not that absurdly high up. It is literally a minor object, in separate chapters, in the background, that is never mentioned or even referenced/supported ever again. I feel like if there's conflict between a literal tiny background detail being used as a statement and the consistency of the palace not being high up, I think we should go with the clearly more consistent and supported one.
Realistically, it is way more likely Kubo was not thinking, specially with all his statements about visuals and backgrounds, "This background clock's pointers from 39 chapters apart will show the time he took". Treating this clock like a direct statement is stupid in my opinion, specially when....
We have a much better timeframe immediately after.
Ichigo’s robe allowed him to break through the 72 layers of the barrier between Seireitei and the Palace. However, due to the Soul Shield Membrane's regeneration rate, it takes 6000 seconds for the hole Ichigo made to fully heal, creating the path Yhwach later uses to reach the Palace.
That means from passing through the 72nd layer to reaching Seireitei, Ichigo had to take less than 6000 seconds, otherwise the hole would have already closed before Yhwach used it, which makes it even worse, Yhwach is able to make the same trip upward and still reach the Palace before the opening/road in the layers regenerates.
6000 seconds is only 1.66 hours, which is nowhere near the “9.25 hours” currently being used. (And he'd take way less than that, likely at least 2x less considering the fact that Yhwach does the same travel upwards as I said before it closes)
"But Ichigo said he'd take half a day if he hurries"
That statement was in reference to him using the stairs, and he was initially in a calmed down state because he thought half a day would still be enough to arrive before the attack began.
After Ichibe tells him they had already attacked three hours earlier, Ichigo immediately throws himself off instead of taking the stairs, traveling at far greater speed than he would if he had used them. So that line does not apply to the feat anyway.
As you can clearly see above, I did indeed not simply say "it's not important" with nothing else, as that would look like an opinion rather than a point (kinda like yours), I actually noted multiple points and evidence on that alongside a contradiction to the clock that supports my point. What was your counter for that- oh right, nothing. Your response was "The clock was very intentional" with the evidence being.... nothing.
Your premise is entirely reliant upon how long it took for the hole itself to have been made, as the exit itself is when the 6000 second timer would start ticking.
I didn't say it's NEW to the anime
This discussion about the 9-hour runtime is irrelevant; it's already been pointed out that the anime has its own 12-hour statement.Also the anime directly says Ichigo should took half a day for the timeframe... which just support the manga... actually we can use this likely.
Using sound speed ≈ 343 m/s: 12 hours = 43,200 s
Distance = speed × time
Distance = 343 × 43,200
Distance = 14,817,600 m
Convert to km: 14,817,600 / 1000 = 14,817.6 km
With 9 hours and 15 min:
Speed of sound ≈ 343 m/s = 1,234.8 km/h
Distance: 1,234.8 × 9.25 = 11,421.9 km
Bleach fans SWORE the anime takes more priority to reject gremmy's feat being interpreted with the manga shots because it put the feat so high up it woulda been rejected as "outlier" but now since using the anime will result in downgrades instead of upgrades that's not allowed because of the made up excuse called "time constraints"
I’m sorry do you just go around assuming everyone shares the same opinions? I notice this a lot. You do a lot of generalizing. You do realize fanbases aren't hive minds right?
False equivalence; the manga shows a galaxy, while the anime only shows stars in the same scene. This is literally a case of contradictory information, which is necessary to dismiss the manga, as you've already been told.
Given their timeframe 50km in an hour assuming freefall still doesn’t make sense no? If ur whole argument is hinged on the fact that the SS has a 1:1 atmosphere with the WoTL, it doesn’t track that it takes an hour to fall down (50 minutes if we cut his timeframe in half like proposed). Again, idc about downgrading it the original justification for 14 million KM is wild but the idea that it’s 50km in particular is just outlandish. People in the SKP would be able to see the SS, and after it turns into the Wandenreich and the sun/clouds disappear it would be SUPER visible.
JJK victims
say wallahi bro
That means from passing through the 72nd layer to reaching Seireitei, Ichigo had to take less than 6000 seconds, otherwise the hole would have already closed before Yhwach used it, which makes it even worse, Yhwach is able to make the same trip upward and still reach the Palace before the opening/road in the layers regenerates.
6000 seconds is only 1.66 hours, which is nowhere near the “9.25 hours” currently being used. (And he'd take way less than that, likely at least 2x less considering the fact that Yhwach does the same travel upwards as I said before it closes)
"But Ichigo said he'd take half a day if he hurries"
That statement was in reference to him using the stairs, and he was initially in a calmed down state because he thought half a day would still be enough to arrive before the attack began.
After Ichibe tells him they had already attacked three hours earlier, Ichigo immediately throws himself off instead of taking the stairs, traveling at far greater speed than he would if he had used them. So that line does not apply to the feat anyway.
I love how half of this yap is an attack to all Bleach fans with little to no corelation to what's being discussed here although several people asked we don't send pointless replies. Whether the clock scene is still clear in the anime or not, it does not discredit the validity of the clock timeframe from the manga which is still canon. We don't have another timeframe from the anime, so the manga one is still perfectly valid.
There's no need to keep it in check from inside hell?? To reach Hell, it already has to cross the Garganta. Think of Garganta as the Reiokyu dimension and the Hell as the Reiokyu(ofc, what he already did is on a completely different scale than Reiokyu). And, once again, he's superior to Senjumaru.
Fr, that was exactly my reaction this morning. If we want this CRT to go anywhere I suggest we all just make one more reply summing up our points and then we let @M3X_2.0I love how I stopped replying because I was asked to in order to not clutter the thread, but now that I opened it again I see everyone else who was also asked to shush kept yapping anyway
First off, the statement is no longer done by Yhwach in the anime, Mayuri does the statement now. All Yhwach says now is that thanks to what Ichigo did, he can now invade the Palace but he makes that vague and Mayuri explains in the next scene. The statement is indeed simply talking about how long it takes the 72 layers to heal after getting Ichigo created the hole in them. The entire dialogue is:This is misinterpreted.
Yhwach did not know when Ichigo started travelling back down, so when Ichigo arrived, Yhwach had no way of knowing exactly how long Ichigo had already been travelling. Let's follow your logic, What if Ichigo had already been travelling for 5000 seconds? Then only 1000 seconds would remain before the first gate close. So why would Yhwach not say that directly?
And if Yhwach did not know how long Ichigo had been travelling, how could he know for sure that he himself would be able to travel back up in time?
Ichigo could have been traveling for 5999s and the barrier started to close right after, so how Yhwach knew he had time?
The 6000 seconds claim refers to the moment Yhwach is speaking, while looking at the hole/barrier.
That would be the only way to calculate whether he himself could travel back up. Yhwach is speaking in the present moment.
だが その絶大な防御力ゆえ
お前の突破した七十二層の障壁は
その後 6000秒の間 閉ざす事ができぬ！
But, because of their tremendous defensive power,
the seventy-two layers of barriers that you broke through…
cannot be closed for the next 6000 seconds!
The scan you posted yourself and the manga say that for the NEXT 6000 seconds, the barrier cannot be closed. It refers to the time from when he is speaking. That's why he is sure to go back up.
If the 6000 seconds included Ichigo’s travel time, and Yhwach had no way of knowing exactly how long Ichigo had been traveling, then he should not be so sure at all. He could could have ended up stuck midway coming up. Because all the barriers need to be open.
So the only reasonable explanation is that the 6000 seconds are being estimated from the moment Yhwach is speaking, hence “the next 6000 seconds.”
It does not inherently mean Ichigo took 6000 seconds to travel.
That's a huge misinterpretation you used here.
Regarding the “half a day” statement, we do not really know for sure if Ichigo already had flying down, in his mind. The stairs were only suggested by him.
And, if anything, it still supports using clock time, since 9h < 12.
The math is wrong too with your conclusion, even with just 3000 seconds, since Ichigo broke the sound barrier, the distance is over 1000 km, which is astronomically higher than 50km, you know what that means? That even used hyper lowballed timeframe, the visual are simply not trustable in this case.
"It's a different dimension, trust"
Not necessarily, no. Assuming Ichigo took the ENTIRE half of that 6000s timeframe (which is being really generous, as he more likely took less than that) and using average free fall speed, it would still only give the distance of around 164km, which is not far off from the proposed 50-85km (or 100km at the highest)
Here is the entire clipFirst off, the statement is no longer done by Yhwach in the anime, Mayuri does the statement now. All Yhwach says now is that thanks to what Ichigo did, he can now invade the Palace but he makes that vague and Mayuri explains in the next scene. The statement is indeed simply talking about how long it takes the 72 layers to heal after getting Ichigo created the hole in them. The entire dialogue is:
The entire point isn't "this statement is saying Ichigo took 6000 seconds", the point is that the statement is indirectly saying that through the period of time of traveling between the 72nd layer and the 1st, Ichigo took less than 6000 seconds.
And as you yourself said, Yhwach is able to go upwards to the palace, this before the layers regenerate, so Yhwach himself proves it's entirely possible to do that travel in way less than 6000 seconds.
For you to get an idea of how it was way less than 6000 seconds for Yhwach to get to the Palace.
And I kid you not, in EPISODE 31, 10 episodes later, the hole that Ichigo did is STILL OPENED even though it'd only take 6000 seconds to close.
- Ichigo lands in Seireitei in Episode 21: The Headless Star;
- After this you have Ichigo VS the Bambies;
- Yhwach travels to the Palace, arrives and starts fighting Ichibe (alongside all the squad 0 fights)i;
- Meanwhile Ichigo and the others are being helped by Kisuke to be able to go to the Palace;
- All those things end, Ichigo and the others arrive at the palace;
- The entire fall of the soul king happens alongside everything down below;
And no the math isn't "wrong". Because the point is that there is no math, we don't know how many time he takes and we can't assume stuff, we can't even assume he has a linear speed throughout the entire travel.
Just use the most consistent and non contradictory way which the OP says already.
Let's think for a moment, if even first layer which was just broken moments ago is gonna take 6000 seconds to regenerate, what does that tell us about the 72nd considering it is still opened/still has the hole? Do you think the upper layers have a slower regenerative rate than the lower ones or something?
Even if I were to grant this idea instead of just taking the statement at face value like a normal person would, did you not see the part where I showed that Yhwach is not only able to go from Seireitei to the palace, multiple fights happen, Ichigo and the others arrive to the palace, the fall of the soul king happens, all of that and the layers were still broken:
And as you yourself said, Yhwach is able to go upwards to the palace, this before the layers regenerate, so Yhwach himself proves it's entirely possible to do that travel in way less than 6000 seconds.
For you to get an idea of how it was way less than 6000 seconds for Yhwach to get to the Palace.
And I kid you not, in EPISODE 31, 10 episodes later, the hole that Ichigo did is STILL OPENED even though it'd only take 6000 seconds to close.
- Ichigo lands in Seireitei in Episode 21: The Headless Star;
- After this you have Ichigo VS the Bambies;
- Yhwach travels to the Palace, arrives and starts fighting Ichibe (alongside all the squad 0 fights)i;
- Meanwhile Ichigo and the others are being helped by Kisuke to be able to go to the Palace;
- All those things end, Ichigo and the others arrive at the palace;
- The entire fall of the soul king happens alongside everything down below;
And no the math isn't "wrong". Because the point is that there is no math, we don't know how many time he takes and we can't assume stuff, we can't even assume he has a linear speed throughout the entire travel.
Just use the most consistent and non contradictory way which the OP says already.
