Big 'Ol Katangatari CRT

[Hl3_or_bust]

This has nothing to do with the stuff talked about in the other one just as an fyi.

Ability Additions

Meisai Tsuruga

• Resistance to Extrasensory Perception and Clairvoyance. Shichika was unable to sense Sento Tsurugi throughout his fight with Meisai, repeatedly being caught off guard by her when she pulls weapons from hidden locations.

Shichika Yasuri

• Clairvoyance. The justification is already on his profile, it's just mixed in with other powers or mislabed as aura for some reason.

Hōō Maniwa

• Likely all of Emonzaemon Sōda's abilities. Hoo stole Emonzaemon's face 150 years ago and should have all of his abilities, since Emon couldn't have learned his techniques after his clan was wiped out. The reason this isn't definite is because the only power from Emonzaemon that he ever uses is Danzaien.
• Enhanced Senses. He doesn't have this for some reason, and there are more occurances than I could even list, but the most blatant is him having the sense of Kawauso, who himself could sense Kyouken, who is basically a ghost, at times, as well as being a member of Beast Squad which is known for having exceptional tracking abilities even among the Maniwa.
• A separate CRT will be done for when he was possessed by Shikizaki Kiki, since that requires confirmation of the abilities of Dokuto Mekki, Deviant Blades in general, and Princess Hitei.

Kōmori Maniwa

• Not entirely sure what this would count as if anything, but when he turned into Shichika, Komori copied the Yasuri family curse which caused Zetto Kanna to fall out of his hands and ultimately killed him.

Emonzaemon Sōda

• Resistance to Extrasensory Perception, Clairvoyance, Precognition, and Information Analysis. Repeatedly sneaks up on or remains hidden from Shichika and Togame despite their senses and him being physically close to them. Managed to hide his identity from Pengin and his prophetic dreams. Shichika wasn't able to identify Ento Ju as a Deviant Blade when he initially saw it, and seemed more confused than anything, nor feel the kunai that Emonzaemon has on his person.

Tiering
So, basically my only real issue with this is everyone being 7-A scaling from Nanami. The issue with this is that only Shichika, Zanki Kiguchi, possibly Emonzaemon, and Shikizaki-possessed Hoo (iirc) have any reason to scale to her. Everyone else is repeatedly stated to have absolutely 0 chance against her in a fight, with even Emonzaemon stating that he had no chance against her.

What exactly this warrants tiering-wise is kinda up in the air, but I'm fairly certain there's a reason for these people scaling that I might have just missed. Idk though.

This leads me to my second point, which is that Ento Ju has been repeatedly shown to be a lot stronger than Emonzaemon in terms of pure power, such as when he required the use of Danzaien to damage Shichika in CQC yet, when Shichika walks into Ento Ju's bullets, it actually damages him and pierces his organs, or when he uses it to basically one-shot Oshidori Maniwa after initially having trouble with her.

tl;dr

• Shichika: scales to Nanami for obvious reasons
• Zanki: scales to Nanami for having the "sharpest" aura that Shichika had seen so far, which was quite a while after he killed Nanami.
• Emonzaemon: scales to Shichika when using Ento Ju.
• Shikizaki-Possessed Hoo: Shikizaki was stated to be more powerful than Nanami iirc, and Shichika mentioned that Hoo was stronger than he seemed to be before if i recall correctly.
• Everyone else who is current 7-A: unless there's a really good reason for this, they all go down to At least 8-B, likely Far Higher

Pengin Problem
You've probably noticed this weakness on Pengin Maniwa's page

• "Emonzaemon claimed that he got around Unmei Kuzushi because Pengin was no longer favored by history, but it could have simply been because Unmei Kuzushi will not protect Pengin from projectiles fired at random that happen to ricochet into him."

The issue is that this makes no sense, nor does Emonzaemon's own explaination of how he killed Pengin. Projectiles themselves dodge Pengin, which is why he could use Juukyuu in the first place without gibbing himself. The possibility that it just doesn't defend against random coincidence makes 0 sense because Juukyuu would just kill him. The other possibility that history stopped favoring his makes as much sense, since Juukyuu was still bouncing around at the time and didn't instantly gib Pengin despite having already accelerated to the point of damaging and becoming undodgeable to Emonzaemon.

There are several things that could come from this, but i personally believe that we should just disregard it. The situation is so fucky and nonsensical that any conclusion drawn from it would basically be headcanon.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I can provide scans if they are necessary, just don't expect them to be timely because ********* is unstable as all ****.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Shichika's profile is somewhat messy. Precognition is listed like... twice.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Got the details before hand, and i obviously agree.

Good job.

I agree with what you said in the tiering stuff, but i don't have a lot to add to it unfortunally.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Shichika's profile is somewhat messy. Precognition is listed like... twice.

He technically has two different forms of precog, normal precog and prediction, but yeah

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

One in the future, and one through analytical prediction?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Yeah, he has a Pailingual-type thing where he can feel how a weapon is about to be used, which is part of his weakness against people who don't know what they're doing, or can just predict people.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ah, I see. I believe it should just be listed as one thing, under one justification.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Considering how Analytical Prediction got re-merged with precog, yes it should

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

bump

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Bump

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree, btw. Don't agree with causing someones heart to explode being Biological Manip, but dura neg.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It probably should while he's Complete at least, since he actually did it with a shockwave then

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He can do it without or?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Wdym?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He does it with shockwaves, right? Can he do it without it?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Do you mean without moving at all?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Something like that, yeah. Or with a thought?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Probably not

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I see, so likely just Durability Neg+Vibration Manipulation.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

At first glance this seems fine for the most part except for the resistances to the esp and stuff. Esp for very plot related reasons is common not to kick in at all times. DxD does this all the time, even though everyone and their grandmother can sense beings normally. So i may need to check the stuff myself.

And the pengin part. That's just probability manip. He just is unaffected by bullets cus of some probability stuff iirc that makes bullets miss. However when Emonzamemon just spammed them in random directions, the probability "broke" it couldn't keep up. Like having a 1% chance of landing tails but you roll enough times to get tails. Same thing here, eventually the bullet would hit, cus he wasn't doing magnetic stuff.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Pretty sure that it just not kicking into effect isnt something that can happen in these cases.

No offense but please reread my points on this, because it sounds like you didn't at all.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It is. There would be something like "i can't sense her at all" to prove that he indeed cannot sense her and it's not just plot forgetting that he can sense things or making it so that he can't for the sake of convinience.

The history favouring him seems like just flowery writing for "he's lucky", and Emonzaemon saying that is like "that's as far as your luck gets you". What i meant by my case though is "juuk is just 1 bullet/ball". Emonzamon shot a way lager amount of times. Think of it like this. His luck/probability can help him vs 1 bouncing bullet all over the place, what if we do 10 or 20? The probability of the event happening gets higher and higher. Until eventually his luck just cannot keep up.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Considering how Meisai's hit and run tactics legitimately caught Shichika off guard mutliple times, there is literally no reason for the plot to have just forgotten that he could sense weapons, especially this early. Same goes for Emonzaemon.

What. First off, no, no more flowrry language bullshit. Pengin bein favored by history is how the ability works and why he even had it because he didnt get it from his parents snd he can't pass it down. Luck isnt some resource that you need to allocate, and there was 0 indication that just spamming more bullets would help Emonzaemon, especially when that was gis first move and it didn't work.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

"There is literaly no reason" I just love how that's always your argument. Catching someone off guard is not always "lol resistance to senses". In most cases it's just plot, unless it's specified as "i cannot sense him" there would qualify for the "cannot be sensed". As i said do you think sneak attacks don't exist in DxD? Everyone in DxD can sense people, they still get caught by surprise by people they are able to sense. Doesn't mean "lol resistance", just plot to make a fun fight.

It's the same thing though, being lucky means being favoured. Same thing, just different wording. Also luck is not infinite. Being favoured doesn't mean you always have a 0% chance of getting hit. It's always just assumed to be small chance unless shown otherwise. And the first shots were head on shots, not riccosheting ones.

Also you bring "0 indication otherwise" a needlessly amount of times. Having 0 indications on one side and 0 indications on the other doesn't mean you just go and slap whichever side you want. The negative argument always has more weight with the same amount of arguments. Or in other words "the positive claim has to be proven" not the negative one. It's in the rules of the wiki.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Your arguments are a helluva lot worse, as many will agree but that's beside the point. It is when the person being caught off guard can specifically sense weapons but seemingly can't sense the weapons that he's been caught off guard with you ******* giraffe. Also, if it was "plot to make a fun fight" it didn't work as Shichika just kinda walks out of her traps and eventually pops her heart. Also stop bringing up DxD, it is completely irrelevant.

Then what was the point of your entire last post if you literally agree with me? Again, luck isn't just some resource that you need to allocate, especially when it works by making the attacks themselves dodge him. If ricochet attacks could hit him, using Juukyuu would be literally suicide. Needless to say, that isn't the case.

A lack of negation is not evidence, I know, but it does support the actual evidence when there is no counter to it. If the positive statement has to be proven, and yes i know how debates work thanks mom, please explain why Shichika not sensing Sento Tsurugi and Emonzaemon is in any way related to the plot, because it requires more assumptions for it to be related to the plot than it does for it to simply be a resistance.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems to make sense.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Me bringing up DxD is just me saying "this happens, it's not even uncommon in other verses what makes this case any different?". And again you're just repeating points in the OP. I may need to rewatch the episode, but not worth it, this ain't a big addition either way. So even if it goes through no big deal.

I agree that it's luck or favouring. I just mentioned it as "it's just luck no need for the favoured by history to this point in time etc etc etc. Just luck is fine". You didn't read my post did you? juuku isn't suicide cus it's just 1 ball, his luck can make him dodge 1 ball, 20 balls are different though. I mean he doesn't throw out 20 Juuku's for a reason. 1 Juuku is not suicidal, 20 are.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody provide a TL;DR summary for the discussion beneath the original post?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well everyone agrees with the OP. Except me who disagrees with 2 points.

• Resistance to Extra Sensory perception - Which is just normal in many other verses for ESP not to work at certain times, usual plots. It's very common in fiction. That's why it would usually take some kind of indication that ESP is being considered (some form of statement or sorts), and not just the author forgetting that it is a thing or just deciding to disregard it like they usually do.

• Pengin's death being just plot. Pengin is really lucky, and he uses a riccoshet ball to beat his opponents cus well he wouldn't get hit by that because of his luck. However Emonzaemon just fired like 10 or more bullets that all were riccoshetting and eventually 1 or 2 hit Pengin. That's just saying that his luck wasn't good enough to make him survive 20 ricoshetting bullets forever. Seems like it's overpowering the luck rather than plot.

And on another topic why does pengin have prob and fate hax on his profile instead of just supernatural luck?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that those seems like valid objections.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Explain to me why it is related to the plot first.

I was literally saying that we shouldn't draw any conclusions from the death, not that Pengin didn't have any luck you dumbass. Next time, maybe actually read the OP because this was a 100% pointless discussion.

@Ant

No they are not. Earl is apparently of the mind that, because one verse tends to ignore its character's powers for plot, that all verses do and every single instance that could be even remotely interpreted as such is, without exception, done solely for the plot. He refuses to explain why this is the case and why comparing DxD to Katanagatari makes any sense, because they are not only extremely different series but also made by different people.

Additionally, I'd like some feedback on the Komori thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then. We should probably apply this.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@H13

Idm if the resistance gets added, it's not sth that important either way. I was just explaining that it's common for plot to do those. And you acknowledge PIS in the pengin case so...

About the pengin. My point was mostly to say that "pengin doesn't have infinite luck, such as no matter how many riccoshetting bullets, none would hit him". I just was trying to point that out as it felt like that was what you were implying. If it wasn't then my bad.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Statements of infinite luck are generally very blatant, Danganronpa has a lot iirc, but Pengin's luck is definitely unquantifiable and very weird, especially considering how he pretty clearly got PIS'd as you said.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah but luck is not infinite. Pengin is just lucky enough to avoid gun shots. Not that much. His luck also got overwhelmed was my point. Considering how emon used it as a legit strategy. It's safe to say penguins luck was overwhelmed and just couldn't keep up with 20 balls at the same time.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then. We should probably apply this.

^

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I'm trying to see if i can get Jordan/CreatureMaster to comment since he's the main Katanagatari guy rn, plus I'm currently not in a position where i'm able to edit pages

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.