Big Ashen One Revision

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to revert the edits?

Since Mr. Bambu and Sir Ovens seems to have rejected this change, I would appreciate if somebody could quickly handle this. We are running out of time before April 15

 

[Overlord775]

"At the end of first phase, Gael turns Hollow. Therefore, he additionally becomes weak to the Hollowslayer Greatsword."

You're literally just wrong, dunno what to tell you. Like yeah, I remember how he fights, I'm just informing you that he loses his mind mid-fight. He goes hollow after Phase 1.

Becoming hollow doesn't necessarelly mean becoming insane, Patches is clear exemple of that

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I didn't say insane, I said he lost his mind. Since that is what hollowing is. You lose your mind, this is referenced on a massively common basis. Patches is just calm in this event.

But you don't have lore supporting DS1/DS2 protags getting powers, you have different creatures with generally totally different physiologies doing kind of similar things. There is no lore to contradict.

No, the Chaos Flame is nothing like the First Flame. It creates stuff, sure, but that entire segment of lore was supposed to show you why such a task is folly and literally impossible, even with a full Lord Soul.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Patches has never been fully hollow.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyone?

 

[Overlord775]

@Apies

Patches, or more appropiratelly his alter ego, calls himself hollow

@Bambu

Gael is the same as Patches, despite being hollow he can mantain a semblance of rationality, seeable by his far less feral beheaviour [in phase 1 he even walk son all fours for god sake]

We have undeads and hollows [which everyone was before the FF], so they SHOULD be able to do the same, but game mechanics say no

The Chaos Flame failed because Izalith couldn't control it tho

Also, the Lord of Hollows Ashen One would still have Space-Time Manipulation even if didn't absorb the powers of the First Flame, as he is physically holding it within his body and it produces space-time anomalyes passivelly

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Patches, or more appropiratelly his alter ego, calls himself hollow

And that should be proof enough that he isn't. Actual Hollows are mindless.

 

[Overlord775]

He was hollow tho, like he needed to go to the Purging Monument to get back to normal

also, we have other exemples of non-mindless Hollows like the cage Hollow Manservant in the Undead Village that doesn't attack the PC on sight

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Basically this amounts to taking a single outlier and making that the average. We see, unironically, about a thousand Hollows before seeing patches. In graveyards, on the wall, everywhere, just gormlessly staring at things and undertaking various meaningless tasks. Hollows ostensibly just do whatever thing they were doing last.

But no, all Hollows are like Patches, yep, sure thing chief.

I reject this, Ovens has rejected it, it has been rejected.

 

[Overlord775]

it's not like the Nameless King is also clearly hollow or anything and can still think properly

also you completly ignored about my point of the Ashen One physically carring the FF, which passivelly does shit

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"The hollowed out appearance of The Nameless King and its connotations is an element of great debate. He does not speak, a trait shared by Hollows who have lost their sanity, but this on its own is not enough evidence. If he is the Firstborn son of Gwyn, this may be a result of him being stripped of his inheiritance, as though the fire of his lordship were ripped from him, but this is contradicted by his ability to continue to use lightning. It is possible that he was branded with the sign of the undead, as this appears to be the case for all of the warriors that follow him."

Basically? No, Nameless King isn't "clearly" hollow. There are mitigating factors to contradict this- for example, being a god rather than a human. So no.

Your points about the Flame are invalid because of what I did counter- even assuming you somehow proved your point via conjecture, the Flame isn't a soul. If you're just implying "well the flame does x and y thing, ashen carries it, ergo x and y goes on his profile", then... no? Those things ostensibly stop when the flame goes out, or, more accurately, if they continued going is up in the air. So the flame does not provably still do those things whilst in Ashen's possession and, again, it would mean very little in terms of Ashen's own power set, since all it does is constitute time going forward, it wouldn't give Ashen any nifty little timehax.

 

[Overlord775]

how is the First Flame creating the dualities of life/death, Heath/Cold and Llight/Dark a thing that happens when the FF is dying ?

Like, they were a thing since the FF was a thing and the Ashen One by carring the FF would be passivelly appling said concepts to the world around itself

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I have literally no idea what you're trying to get across. It made life and death, light and dark, yes, how does that correlate to Ashen killing it?

No, holy shit, actually I do get it. Okay, first of all, no. For all the reasons in this thread I have already posted again that have been entirely just met with saying the same thing back at me, no. Ashen absorbing the souls of the first flame =/= passively applying concept yada yada yada yadda.

The First Flame caused change for the first time. That's what it did. It also granted the Lord Souls, which gave those that received them certain control over those dominions (life, death, light, dark). This is what happened. First Flame didn't "passively generate concepts on a platonic level to give transcendence to..." etc, nor do you have statements of such. Since no significant new argument has been made since this was rejected, I'm closing this, because hot damn that interpretation annoyed me.

I hereby formally announce this as rejected by myself and other staff, good bai.