Ben 10: High 5-A upgrade for some Aliens

[Hellformer]

Basically we know that Vilgax in Alien Force could knockdown Full Sized Humungousaur who scales to 18.84805 Ronnatons, tier High 5-A. And since we know that this Vilgax was later harmed by chromastone and eventually defeated by Diamondhead, so both of these aliens should get a rating of High 5-A in their profiles;
Chromastone:
5-A physically, upto High 5-A with energy blasts, at most 4-B possibly 4-A with energy absorption

Diamondhead:
5-A | 5-A physically, upto High 5-A with crystallokinesis

One might think that High 5-A rating for Chromastone being unnecessary but keep in mind that this energy blast does not come from any external source unlike the case of his 4-B possibly 4-A tier where he needs to absorb energy from external sources.
In conclusion whichever alien that scales to Full Sized Humungousaur, should get a High 5-A rating.
Agree : @REX9097 @OMNIVERSAL-KING @BoastJr @Baabasaplar95 @NXCHT.66

Disagree : @Ghengiroo115

Neutral :

 

[REX9097]

Agree

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

AGREEEEEEEEE

 

[BoastJr]

Seems fine. Diamondhead was always kickass for beating Vilgax in a 1 v 1

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’ve been pretty busy today so I haven’t got the energy to do research myself, but who else is shown scaling to Vilgax, Chromastone’s energy blasts or Diamondhead’s crystals? If there’s no issues that comes from this then I guess it’s fine, but I have a strong feeling that there’s some part of the scaling that breaks if these guys become High 5-A.

Also btw, AF Vilgax being buffed also buffs every OS character due to him being 10x OS Vilgax.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

This is 6th Ben 10 active crt.

 

[Hellformer]

I’ve been pretty busy today so I haven’t got the energy to do research myself, but who else is shown scaling to Vilgax, Chromastone’s energy blasts or Diamondhead’s crystals? If there’s no issues that comes from this then I guess it’s fine, but I have a strong feeling that there’s some part of the scaling that breaks if these guys become High 5-A.

Also btw, AF Vilgax being buffed also buffs every OS character due to him being 10x OS Vilgax.

I'm thinking of making a CRT for that as well. Do you agree with this one though?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I'm thinking of making a CRT for that as well. Do you agree with this one though?

Not yet, I’d rather know who this could potentially affect first. Depending on who it affects you could get some really wonky scaling, as we’re talking about a guy scaling above a 5x higher form of the strongest regular alien.

 

[Hellformer]

Not yet, I’d rather know who this could potentially affect first. Depending on who it affects you could get some really wonky scaling, as we’re talking about a guy scaling above a 5x higher form of the strongest regular alien.

Basically every classic alien will get a 5x boost nothing else
To explain it simply, let's assume the AP of these Aliens according to series:
AP of OS aliens = a
AP of AF base aliens = b
AP of full sized Humungousaur = c
AP of Ultimate aliens = d
We know that Vilgax's AP in AF = c via one shotting full sized Humungousaur(c=10a since we know Vilgax was 10x than his OS)
And we know that Ultimate humungousaur is 10x stronger than his base(d=10b). Now full sized humungousaur is 5x stronger than his base so, c=5b
Finally tally:
c=5b
c=10a
Therefore b=2a
d=10b=20a
Conclusion :
OS AP = a
AF base = 2a
Full size = 10a
Ultimate form = 20a

 

[Ghengiroo115]

What I mean is that this could potentially screw up the scaling chain. For example Ultimate Swampfire pretty blatantly scales to Vilgax, so are there any characters shown scaling to Ultimate Swampfire? If so are there any characters shown scaling to the characters that scale to Ultimate Swampfire? Repeat that again and again and do that with all the other characters shown scaling to Vilgax and you might end up with some low tiers scaling to full-size Humungousaur.

 

[Hellformer]

If we were to calculate all the APs then we can go by the same Ultimate kevin meta :
Ultimate Kevin's AP = AP of Ultimate Aliens = 20a(calculated above)
Now in the UAF intro, we can see 42 aliens in total(excluding greymatter and nanomech due to their negligible AP).
Waybig's AP=203.5591 Ronnatons
2a/10*41+20.35591=20a
Hence a=1.725077 Ronnatons(5-A)
2a=3.450154 Ronnatons(5-A)
10a=17.250771 Ronnatons(High 5-A)
20a=34.5015 Ronnatons(High 5-A)

So not much difference in the AP of other categories but OS aliens get a 5x boost

 

[Hellformer]

What I mean is that this could potentially screw up the scaling chain. For example Ultimate Swampfire pretty blatantly scales to Vilgax, so are there any characters shown scaling to Ultimate Swampfire? If so are there any characters shown scaling to the characters that scale to Ultimate Swampfire? Repeat that again and again and do that with all the other characters shown scaling to Vilgax and you might end up with some low tiers scaling to full-size Humungousaur.

That's ****** up but I'll try if that happens. But isn't it absurd that Humungousaur at full size is rated as High 5-A but Vilgax in AF is only rated 5-A. Does that make any sense to you?

 

[Hellformer]

I can see Swampfire in base scaling to AF Vilgax and Ultimate Swampfire basically obliterates him

 

[Ghengiroo115]

That's ****** up but I'll try if that happens. But isn't it absurd that Humungousaur at full size is rated as High 5-A but Vilgax in AF is only rated 5-A. Does that make any sense to you?

Tbh yeah it kinda does. I remember bringing this up in the High 6-A upgrade thread but Vilgax only hits Humungousaur with two attacks. The first one did literally no damage, while the second one completely overwhelms Humungousaur’s own attack and knocks him down. That one brief fight on its own doesn’t really make much sense, so if Vilgax scaling to him causes any scaling issues for the rest of the verse then imo he simply shouldn’t scale.

From what I recall Chromastone’s energy blasts, Diamondhead’s crystals, Ultimate Swampfire and Zs’Skayr all scale to Vilgax, but there mught be more that I can’t remember at this time. So the question becomes “Who else scales to these four?”.

 

[Hellformer]

Tbh yeah it kinda does. I remember bringing this up in the High 6-A upgrade thread but Vilgax only hits Humungousaur with two attacks. The first one did literally no damage, while the second one completely overwhelms Humungousaur’s own attack and knocks him down. That one brief fight on its own doesn’t really make much sense, so if Vilgax scaling to him causes any scaling issues for the rest of the verse then imo he simply shouldn’t scale.

From what I recall Chromastone’s energy blasts, Diamondhead’s crystals, Ultimate Swampfire and Zs’Skayr all scale to Vilgax, but there mught be more that I can’t remember at this time. So the question becomes “Who else scales to these four?”.

I haven't mugged up all the ben 10 inverse so can't say

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I can see Swampfire in base scaling to AF Vilgax and Ultimate Swampfire basically obliterates him

That’s a pretty big red flag considering Swampfire is meant to be weaker than base Humungousaur and scales to a bunch of other mid tier characters.

I haven't mugged up all the ben 10 inverse so can't say

LMAO that’s all right, only reason I’m asking in the first place is because I don’t remember a good chunk of the series. Guess we can wait to see if anyone else brings something to the table.

As of right now I’m neutral but heavily leaning towards disagreeing.

 

[Hellformer]

That’s a pretty big red flag considering Swampfire is meant to be weaker than base Humungousaur and scales to a bunch of other mid tier characters.



How about considering it an outlier for base Swampfire and taking ultimate Swampfire's AP into account?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Not too fond of that idea personally. As I said before the scaling between Vilgax and Humungousaur is already kinda wonky with the whole “tank the first hit, get one-shot from the second” thing, meanwhile Swampfire’s battle with Vilgax is more consistent and is also longer so we get more interactions between them. I would be more willing to call the Humungousaur scaling the outlier as I did back in the High 6-A thread.

 

[Hellformer]

Btw according to VSBW Standards, Vilgax has Class P lifting strength via scaling to full sized humungousaur but then why to do injustice for AP? @Ghengiroo115

Vilgax

Vilgax is an intergalactic alien warlord and conqueror, a Chimera Sui Generis who serves as Ben's archenemy, and the most recurring villain in the on-going franchise. He was introduced in And Then There Were 10, and has since appeared multiple times in all the series. Ben considers him as one of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Btw according to VSBW Standards, Vilgax has Class P lifting strength via scaling to full sized humungousaur but then why to do injustice for AP? @Ghengiroo115

Vilgax

Vilgax is an intergalactic alien warlord and conqueror, a Chimera Sui Generis who serves as Ben's archenemy, and the most recurring villain in the on-going franchise. He was introduced in And Then There Were 10, and has since appeared multiple times in all the series. Ben considers him as one of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

He probably shouldn’t be scaling to full-size Humungousaur in LS for the same reason (as that would give base Swampfire the same level of LS which might cause even more issues), but I imagine you could still get him to Class P by scaling him to Big Chill or something.

 

[Hellformer]

He probably shouldn’t be scaling to full-size Humungousaur in LS for the same reason (as that would give base Swampfire the same level of LS which might cause even more issues), but I imagine you could still get him to Class P by scaling him to Big Chill or something.

Yeah but according to current standards, VSBW doesn't treat him one shotting full sized Humungousaur as on outlier. But also doesn't give him the same AP which is what seems absurd. So maybe we assume that Vilgax sort of lost his power of 10 worlds and became 5-A after the Battle

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Yeah but according to current standards, VSBW doesn't treat him one shotting full sized Humungousaur as on outlier. But also doesn't give him the same AP which is what seems absurd. So maybe we assume that Vilgax sort of lost his power of 10 worlds and became 5-A after the Battle

His AP scaling was considered an outlier during the High 6-A thread but I guess me and everyone else missed the LS stuff.

Vilgax definitely doesn’t lose his power after the battle, as he’s shown using his new abilities like flight or wind breath throughout the entire season. Also even if he did we’d still have to check over Chromastone and Diamondhead’s other battles to make sure there’s no contradictions. Also also, why would he even lose that power?

 

[Hellformer]

His AP scaling was considered an outlier during the High 6-A thread but I guess me and everyone else missed the LS stuff.

Vilgax definitely doesn’t lose his power after the battle, as he’s shown using his new abilities like flight or wind breath throughout the entire season. Also even if he did we’d still have to check over Chromastone and Diamondhead’s other battles to make sure there’s no contradictions. Also also, why would he even lose that power?

Idk just to make scaling consistent but just check if you can see Diamondhead and chromastone consistently at High 5-A

 

[Hellformer]

@Ghengiroo115
Negative Diamondhead no diffs Kevin with his crystallokineses. Shouldn't this be consistent?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

@Ghengiroo115
Negative Diamondhead no diffs Kevin with his crystallokineses. Shouldn't this be consistent?

This actually seems more like an anti-feat for High 5-A Diamondhead crystals. Even Diamondhead’s regular crystals were scaling to Vilgax which would mean that they should’ve gone straight through Kevin. However not only do they not but Kevin doesn’t completely one-shot Diamondhead either, showing his crystals are comparable to his physicals. The only reason Diamondhead wins in the end is because he crushes Kevin between two larger pillars, which is gonna deal more damage than regular attacks.

 

[Hellformer]

This actually seems more like an anti-feat for High 5-A Diamondhead crystals. Even Diamondhead’s regular crystals were scaling to Vilgax which would mean that they should’ve gone straight through Kevin. However not only do they not but Kevin doesn’t completely one-shot Diamondhead either, showing his crystals are comparable to his physicals. The only reason Diamondhead wins in the end is because he crushes Kevin between two larger pillars, which is gonna deal more damage than regular attacks.

Oh alright

 

[NXCHT.66]

This is just my proposal. You should consider it again.

Kevin vs Diamondhead

I pressed send by mistake. Actually, I would offer more than this

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also I tried to look through the Ben 10 wiki for all of Diamondhead’s appearances, but unfortunately it’s playing up a bit for me right now. However I did see that Sunder was shown scaling to Diamondhead’s crystals, who in that same episode was shown scaling to Gwen, Brainstorm and iirc Humungousaur. Also Julie blocked one of Sunder’s attacks using Diamondhead’s hand as a shield, meaning his durability scales to Sunder’s AP.

Tbh at this point I’m very confident in saying that Diamondhead’s crystal attacks shouldn’t scale to full-size Humungousaur, especially since it kinda doesn’t really make biological sense for them to scale massively above his physicals in the first place. I also think I’ve convinced myself into fully disagreeing with all of this now lol.

 

[Hellformer]

This is just my proposal. You should consider it again.

Kevin vs Diamondhead

Are You neutral?

 

[Hellformer]

So basically this entire fight is an outlier?
@Ghengiroo115

 

[NXCHT.66]

Are You neutral?

i agree, I'm looking for what he said.

From what I recall Chromastone’s energy blasts, Diamondhead’s crystals, Ultimate Swampfire and Zs’Skayr all scale to Vilgax, but there mught be more that I can’t remember at this time. So the question becomes “Who else scales to these four?”.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

So basically this entire fight is an outlier?
@Ghengiroo115

Nah, just the Humungousaur portion.

 

[NXCHT.66]

This is just my proposal. You should consider it again.

Kevin vs Diamondhead

I pressed send by mistake. Actually, I would offer more than this

next
Rex vs Diamondhead
I'm not sure if Rex should be counted. However, he is in the same universe.

 

[BoastJr]

Diamondhead has brief scuffles with ultimates iirc



Base Humongasaur (azmuth) did better here. Its the same transformation.

I do also remember Base humongasaur having a cold and still briefly fighting vilgax in the sugilite fight

 

[Hellformer]

next
Rex vs Diamondhead
I'm not sure if Rex should be counted. However, he is in the same universe.

Too much of inverse

 

[Hellformer]

Diamondhead has brief scuffles with ultimates iirc



Base Humongasaur (azmuth) did better here. Its the same transformation.

I do also remember Base humongasaur having a cold and still briefly fighting vilgax in the sugilite fight

Sound waves are Diamondhead's weakness. Again weird thinking that base Humungousaur stands a chance against a guy who one shotted his full sized form.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

agree seems good

 

[BlastX]

Not sure where the idea that he scales to Full-Size Humungousaur after the 5-A upgrades come from, because when I edited his profile I didn't change his scaling or anything, Full-Size Humungosaur is as much as an outlier to Vilgax as before, it's just that the values are different.

 

[Hellformer]

Can this thread be closed because I don't see any point in arguing against an outlier and inconsistent feat?

 

[zaraus]

this topic has already been discussed before

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