Jinsye
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Beholder vs. Mimikyu
- Thread starter Jinsye
- Start date
Mr. Bambu
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A Beholder's will save is enough to resist an Elder Brain's mindhax, which encapsulates their entire civilization so
yes the Beholder should be fine
I suppose I vote the Beholder for my own reasons.
yes the Beholder should be fine
I suppose I vote the Beholder for my own reasons.
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What the heck? There's nothing listed on Mimikyu's profile to address the effects to seeing its True Form, which could matter here.
Unless Beholder is resistant to Fear and Death Manipulation.
Unless Beholder is resistant to Fear and Death Manipulation.
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ofc it does, it's a dnd character
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Not to sound rude, but please explain the details besides just that, regardless.DragonEmperor23 said:
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oh I was just memeing, DND characters are known for having lots of resistances, Bambu can clarify if he actually does resist
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Okay, I just looked again at the Beholder's profile. I don't see Resistance to Mind Manipulation, though I guess it wasn't added for some reason.
I see no resistances for Death and Fear Manipulation, though.
I see no resistances for Death and Fear Manipulation, though.
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Very few D&D profiles list resistances as of yet, but I can provide proof of resistance if need be. Basically it comes down to literally every character (normally, there are exceptions) have resistance to some extent to almost every hax in the game via the Saves/Take 10 system.
To establish if a character resists on an SRD page (what I'm about to link as proof of resistance), look at the area marked "Saving Throw". A Saving Throw is essentially a roll made to totally negate the effects of an ability. Generally you roll- however the game also includes a mechanic known as Take 10, which allows you to take a perfectly average roll and apply your own bonuses (as in, your own actual resistances). This is the system we use to decide how good resistances are of each character.
Mind Manipulation: One example of a decent mindhax ability Beholder can resist
Death Manipulation: Wail of the Banshee kills anyone who hears it
Fear Manipulation: While this is actually a shit-tier ability, the name made it sort of impossible to not use
To establish if a character resists on an SRD page (what I'm about to link as proof of resistance), look at the area marked "Saving Throw". A Saving Throw is essentially a roll made to totally negate the effects of an ability. Generally you roll- however the game also includes a mechanic known as Take 10, which allows you to take a perfectly average roll and apply your own bonuses (as in, your own actual resistances). This is the system we use to decide how good resistances are of each character.
Mind Manipulation: One example of a decent mindhax ability Beholder can resist
Death Manipulation: Wail of the Banshee kills anyone who hears it
Fear Manipulation: While this is actually a shit-tier ability, the name made it sort of impossible to not use
Mr. Bambu
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Oh. Madness. One sec.
Madness Manipulation: B E C O M E T H I N S A N E
To be clear, this is just the System Reference Document- what was released as open-source stuff, basically. The barest bones of the actual content in the game and probably representative of a fraction of 1% of the game's stuff. The core skeleton. So if you can't find something on there, it is probably off in some book somewhere waiting to be found.
Madness Manipulation: B E C O M E T H I N S A N E
To be clear, this is just the System Reference Document- what was released as open-source stuff, basically. The barest bones of the actual content in the game and probably representative of a fraction of 1% of the game's stuff. The core skeleton. So if you can't find something on there, it is probably off in some book somewhere waiting to be found.
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i'm surprised they haven't got revisions for additional abilties yet
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Resistances are a lesser concern when it's easily proven they can resist in-thread. Most D&D revisions are continuous (as in, we just have threads where someone broaches an issue and anyone active can take a look, including myself and Azzy). And a lot of work there is currently aimed at gathering notable statements and, now, working on an explanation blog and composite class pages.
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Then tbh, I don't think this Vs thread is necessary due to continuing revisions. But we can carry on with it if everyone else is okay with it.
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Revisions on D&D never end due to the sheer size of the verse (40 years of video games, book series, in-game content and lore, magazines, comics, etc). Beholder isn't under revision, the resistances just haven't been piled together yet. Should be fine if people still want to.
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"Then tbh, I don't think this Vs thread is necessary due to continuing revisions. But we can carry on with it if everyone else is okay with it."
Who doesn't love a good debate?
So.... If there's a massive AP difference, as Bambu said does the Beholder have an answer to Mimikyu just "shooting first" with Shadow Sneak?
Which rays would or wouldn't get past Disguise, since, if Mimikyu doesn't try to evade them, Disguise does block damage. Also, Mimikyu's true form probably isn't hurt by something that only busts its Disguise:
"After going to all the effort of disguising itself, its neck was broken. Whatever is inside is probably unharmed, but it's still feeling sad."
Also, Beholders typically go for attacking with all 10 rays, no? Do any of them prevent saving throws? D&D Resistances are based on Saving Throws, & Mimikyu could use several of the Beholder's techniques against it through Mimic & Copycat.
(Also, wow, Mimikyu's profile is missing several of its moves.)
Who doesn't love a good debate?
So.... If there's a massive AP difference, as Bambu said does the Beholder have an answer to Mimikyu just "shooting first" with Shadow Sneak?
Which rays would or wouldn't get past Disguise, since, if Mimikyu doesn't try to evade them, Disguise does block damage. Also, Mimikyu's true form probably isn't hurt by something that only busts its Disguise:
"After going to all the effort of disguising itself, its neck was broken. Whatever is inside is probably unharmed, but it's still feeling sad."
Also, Beholders typically go for attacking with all 10 rays, no? Do any of them prevent saving throws? D&D Resistances are based on Saving Throws, & Mimikyu could use several of the Beholder's techniques against it through Mimic & Copycat.
(Also, wow, Mimikyu's profile is missing several of its moves.)
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Well. I mean. Beholder's central eye is anti-magic that negates all supernatural abilities in D&D. It also like... doesn't have to be a damaging ray. Beholder has stuff like sleep and telekinesis and just straight up disintegration.
As for saving throws, I do wanna say, Mimikyu could feasibly do that but like the Beholder is all the while just nuking it. I believe most of the biggum ones have a saving throw but I'd have to check each individual spell.
As for saving throws, I do wanna say, Mimikyu could feasibly do that but like the Beholder is all the while just nuking it. I believe most of the biggum ones have a saving throw but I'd have to check each individual spell.
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Is there still a huge AP difference here? A lot of Mimikyu's attacks are just it clawing with a shadowy tendril (From what I recall of game animations & the anime.) or beating with the stick that is its "tail".
And yeah, it does have antimagic, but quoting its profile:
Notable Attacks/Techniques: The Beholder is highly xenophobic and vicious, often wanting a quick death of its target(s). It will often jump into a fight at full energy, using all of its rays at once to overwhelm its target.
But yes, Beholder has Rays for Charm, Paralyze, Fear, Slow, Enervation (Feel like energy's being drained.), Telekinesis, Sleep, Petrifrication, Disintegration & Death.
Only a couple of those could be considered "damaging". Also, it probably isn't going to Antimagic as its opening move when it usually goes for attacking with all 10 at once.
Incidentally, there are several level-up & Egg moves Mimikyu has that aren't on its profile; We usually allow those on profiles & in debates, no?
Should we bring them up here, too?
And yeah, it does have antimagic, but quoting its profile:
Notable Attacks/Techniques: The Beholder is highly xenophobic and vicious, often wanting a quick death of its target(s). It will often jump into a fight at full energy, using all of its rays at once to overwhelm its target.
But yes, Beholder has Rays for Charm, Paralyze, Fear, Slow, Enervation (Feel like energy's being drained.), Telekinesis, Sleep, Petrifrication, Disintegration & Death.
Only a couple of those could be considered "damaging". Also, it probably isn't going to Antimagic as its opening move when it usually goes for attacking with all 10 at once.
Incidentally, there are several level-up & Egg moves Mimikyu has that aren't on its profile; We usually allow those on profiles & in debates, no?
Should we bring them up here, too?
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alright just gonna respond to this in bits
1. D&D unironically resists being interacted with by darkness/shadows and I can provide links to the exact abilities if you don't believe me, verse is stupid
2. Beholders also regularly seek dominance and slaves. And yes, it does use all of those. I agree it won't anti-magic, just that if it deems it needed (and the Beholder is so incredibly intelligent it can come to this conclusion quickly if needed) it can just fire at will with its center eye.
3. Feel free to use stuff not on the profile as long as it exists. It's my belief that using stuff not on the profile is fine so long as it is legitimate, profiles often miss stuff.
1. D&D unironically resists being interacted with by darkness/shadows and I can provide links to the exact abilities if you don't believe me, verse is stupid
2. Beholders also regularly seek dominance and slaves. And yes, it does use all of those. I agree it won't anti-magic, just that if it deems it needed (and the Beholder is so incredibly intelligent it can come to this conclusion quickly if needed) it can just fire at will with its center eye.
3. Feel free to use stuff not on the profile as long as it exists. It's my belief that using stuff not on the profile is fine so long as it is legitimate, profiles often miss stuff.
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1. What's the strongest darkness/shadow interaction a Beholder can resist?
2. I'd question how well Enervation (Draining energy), Death Manipulation & Disintegration would work on a Ghost-type, especially Mimikyu's True Form, supposing it's akin to some kind of undead, but that might be a bit speculatory. Mimikyu's profile also lists Non-Corporeality.
3. Moves that might be relevant:
Astonish: Attacks via a startling shout. May flinch. Range, but otherwise lol Fear resist.
Wood Hammer: Attack that seems most likely to use the tail stick. Recoil. Other candidates are: Scratch, Feint Attack, Slash & Play Rough.
Hone Claws might help with hitting somehow, but there likely isn't an opportunity to use it.
Pain Split is beneficial because of Beholder's higher stamina, but stamina doesn't help against most effects. Description: "Misdreavus slams its body into the opponent. Then, a beam of energy comes out of the healthier Pokémon, transferring its health to the weaker Pokémon."
Curse: As a Ghost-type, using this knocks out half of Mimikyu's Stamina to place a Curse on the opponent, which gradually depletes their health. In game mechanics, it's 25% of max per turn. Bulbapedia's description of how it appears in the manga is :
"Gastly's opponent starts suffering from an intense pain and becomes unable to move."
I couldn't find any listed appearances of it in other media.
Nightmare. Same damage rate as Curse, but only works while the victim is asleep. Descriptions:
"A move that makes a sleeping target have bad dreams. The victim will steadily lose HP." (Stadium 2)
"A sleeping foe is shown/sees a nightmare that inflicts some damage every turn." (FR/LG to US/UM.)
"Haunter waves its arms and black energy comes out of its body and surrounds the sleeping opponent, giving them nightmares." (Manga)
Of course, Beholder probably isn't going to sleep unless Mimikyu Mimics/Copies its Sleep Ray.
Baby-Doll Eyes: Priority physical AP reduction. Probably Empathic Manipulation based. Charm is more severe physical AP reduction, but without the priority. Probably irrelevant because magic.
Grudge. I'm not sure how we treat this move. In game mechanics, if the user faints immediately after using it, it depletes all the PP of the move that did so. However we translate this, it's practically sitting duck suicide for a minor inconvenience. Easily Mimikyu's worst choice, but I dunno how likely it is to use this in-character.
Destiny Bond: If Mimikyu faints, the foe also faints. I'd presume similar is true for death. Descriptions:
"The foe faints if the user does."
"After using this move, if the user faints, the Pokémon that landed the knockout hit also faints. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession."
"Misdreavus's body becomes outlined in purple. After fainting, two swirling purple lights come out of Misdreavus's eyes to the opponent that knocked it out. The opponent becomes surrounded by a purple aura and instantly faints." (Anime)
"Destiny Bond, a Ghost-type move. When a Pokémon faints after using this move, the opponent that landed the knockout blow also faints." (Anime Rotomdex)
"After fainting, the opponent faints along with Misdreavus." (Manga)
"When Qwilfish is about to be attacked, it disappears, then reappears behind the opponent. Qwilfish then rams its body into the back of the opponent." (Manga)
Note that some of these are a bit suspect. The animations between games, anime & how they're portrayed in the manga all differ.
Anyway, it would seem Mimikyu's best options are:
A. Rush in with Disguise as-of-yet, unbusted and smash with Wood Hammer or whatever, supposing it has the AP Advantage.
B. Curse immediately, then Pain Split/dodge to keep Stamina up while Beholder is drained.
C. Try to Mimic/Copycat Beholder's own rays, likely also using Destiny Bond in between those, as Destiny Bond, at least by game mechanics, is less likely to succeed if used in succession.
2. I'd question how well Enervation (Draining energy), Death Manipulation & Disintegration would work on a Ghost-type, especially Mimikyu's True Form, supposing it's akin to some kind of undead, but that might be a bit speculatory. Mimikyu's profile also lists Non-Corporeality.
3. Moves that might be relevant:
Astonish: Attacks via a startling shout. May flinch. Range, but otherwise lol Fear resist.
Wood Hammer: Attack that seems most likely to use the tail stick. Recoil. Other candidates are: Scratch, Feint Attack, Slash & Play Rough.
Hone Claws might help with hitting somehow, but there likely isn't an opportunity to use it.
Pain Split is beneficial because of Beholder's higher stamina, but stamina doesn't help against most effects. Description: "Misdreavus slams its body into the opponent. Then, a beam of energy comes out of the healthier Pokémon, transferring its health to the weaker Pokémon."
Curse: As a Ghost-type, using this knocks out half of Mimikyu's Stamina to place a Curse on the opponent, which gradually depletes their health. In game mechanics, it's 25% of max per turn. Bulbapedia's description of how it appears in the manga is :
"Gastly's opponent starts suffering from an intense pain and becomes unable to move."
I couldn't find any listed appearances of it in other media.
Nightmare. Same damage rate as Curse, but only works while the victim is asleep. Descriptions:
"A move that makes a sleeping target have bad dreams. The victim will steadily lose HP." (Stadium 2)
"A sleeping foe is shown/sees a nightmare that inflicts some damage every turn." (FR/LG to US/UM.)
"Haunter waves its arms and black energy comes out of its body and surrounds the sleeping opponent, giving them nightmares." (Manga)
Of course, Beholder probably isn't going to sleep unless Mimikyu Mimics/Copies its Sleep Ray.
Baby-Doll Eyes: Priority physical AP reduction. Probably Empathic Manipulation based. Charm is more severe physical AP reduction, but without the priority. Probably irrelevant because magic.
Grudge. I'm not sure how we treat this move. In game mechanics, if the user faints immediately after using it, it depletes all the PP of the move that did so. However we translate this, it's practically sitting duck suicide for a minor inconvenience. Easily Mimikyu's worst choice, but I dunno how likely it is to use this in-character.
Destiny Bond: If Mimikyu faints, the foe also faints. I'd presume similar is true for death. Descriptions:
"The foe faints if the user does."
"After using this move, if the user faints, the Pokémon that landed the knockout hit also faints. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession."
"Misdreavus's body becomes outlined in purple. After fainting, two swirling purple lights come out of Misdreavus's eyes to the opponent that knocked it out. The opponent becomes surrounded by a purple aura and instantly faints." (Anime)
"Destiny Bond, a Ghost-type move. When a Pokémon faints after using this move, the opponent that landed the knockout blow also faints." (Anime Rotomdex)
"After fainting, the opponent faints along with Misdreavus." (Manga)
"When Qwilfish is about to be attacked, it disappears, then reappears behind the opponent. Qwilfish then rams its body into the back of the opponent." (Manga)
Note that some of these are a bit suspect. The animations between games, anime & how they're portrayed in the manga all differ.
Anyway, it would seem Mimikyu's best options are:
A. Rush in with Disguise as-of-yet, unbusted and smash with Wood Hammer or whatever, supposing it has the AP Advantage.
B. Curse immediately, then Pain Split/dodge to keep Stamina up while Beholder is drained.
C. Try to Mimic/Copycat Beholder's own rays, likely also using Destiny Bond in between those, as Destiny Bond, at least by game mechanics, is less likely to succeed if used in succession.
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wew that's a wall.
1. One two. Just two examples of "Darkness can't touch me".
2. Magic affects incorporeals, to be fair. Undead in D&D do resist quite a lot but this is largely due to their nature rather than actual inability to affect undead from other verses. Death manip won't work but like he can still ragdoll them or mindhax them or etc etc etc.
3. Resistance to Fear. Resistance to Pain Manip (seems to be what that is?). Resistance to Curse Manipulation. Resistance to Dream Manipulation. Resistance to Stat Reduction. Resistance to Empathic Manipulation. Resistance to Fate Manipulation.
So basically, yes, Mimikyu could just try to physical fight the Beholder, but the Beholder has actual hax and the capability to basically ignore 90% of Mimkyu's stuff.
1. One two. Just two examples of "Darkness can't touch me".
2. Magic affects incorporeals, to be fair. Undead in D&D do resist quite a lot but this is largely due to their nature rather than actual inability to affect undead from other verses. Death manip won't work but like he can still ragdoll them or mindhax them or etc etc etc.
3. Resistance to Fear. Resistance to Pain Manip (seems to be what that is?). Resistance to Curse Manipulation. Resistance to Dream Manipulation. Resistance to Stat Reduction. Resistance to Empathic Manipulation. Resistance to Fate Manipulation.
So basically, yes, Mimikyu could just try to physical fight the Beholder, but the Beholder has actual hax and the capability to basically ignore 90% of Mimkyu's stuff.
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Seems like. Is there such a thing as a "Resistance Stomp"? Given the Beholder resists practically everything Mimikyu can do?
Besides that, Beholder has much more intelligence to begin with, more Stamina, & it's questionable how a Ghost like Mimikyu functions in an anti-magic cone.
Also, Mimikyu probably isn't so okay risking its Disguise.
To abbreviate a bit, Mimikyu's Pokedex entries for its "Busted Form" (Where the Disguise has been broken.) say stuff like:
"After going to all the effort of disguising itself, its neck was broken. Whatever is inside is probably unharmed, but it's still feeling sad."
"If its neck is broken or its rag torn during an attack, it works through the night to patch it."
"It stands in front of a mirror, trying to fix its broken neck as if its life depended on it. It has a hard time getting it right, so it's crying inside."
"Sad that its true identity may be exposed, Mimikyu will mercilessly seek revenge on any opponent that breaks its neck."
It probably would go for a physical assault, &/or, at some point, get very upset about its broken Disguise. Worst case scenario, it wastes time trying to fix it while the Beholder is still a threat.
Also, somehow I missed that Mimikyu gets Double Team as a level-up move.
"By moving rapidly, the user makes illusory copies of itself to raise its evasiveness."
One option might be to try that, as well as use it with Mimic/Copycat & hope that the Beholder doesn't resist its own stuff. Of course, this trick might not work well that long, given a Beholder's high intelligence.
But yeah. At least 7 of the Beholder's 10 attacks hitting, only a scant few abilities of Mimikyu's work, & it has no idea which of them would be effective. Also, I dunno the AP used for these characters, but Mimikyu is outclassed in Stamina & Intelligence.
It would have to massively outskill to beat with only brute force, too, presumably.
Besides that, Beholder has much more intelligence to begin with, more Stamina, & it's questionable how a Ghost like Mimikyu functions in an anti-magic cone.
Also, Mimikyu probably isn't so okay risking its Disguise.
To abbreviate a bit, Mimikyu's Pokedex entries for its "Busted Form" (Where the Disguise has been broken.) say stuff like:
"After going to all the effort of disguising itself, its neck was broken. Whatever is inside is probably unharmed, but it's still feeling sad."
"If its neck is broken or its rag torn during an attack, it works through the night to patch it."
"It stands in front of a mirror, trying to fix its broken neck as if its life depended on it. It has a hard time getting it right, so it's crying inside."
"Sad that its true identity may be exposed, Mimikyu will mercilessly seek revenge on any opponent that breaks its neck."
It probably would go for a physical assault, &/or, at some point, get very upset about its broken Disguise. Worst case scenario, it wastes time trying to fix it while the Beholder is still a threat.
Also, somehow I missed that Mimikyu gets Double Team as a level-up move.
"By moving rapidly, the user makes illusory copies of itself to raise its evasiveness."
One option might be to try that, as well as use it with Mimic/Copycat & hope that the Beholder doesn't resist its own stuff. Of course, this trick might not work well that long, given a Beholder's high intelligence.
But yeah. At least 7 of the Beholder's 10 attacks hitting, only a scant few abilities of Mimikyu's work, & it has no idea which of them would be effective. Also, I dunno the AP used for these characters, but Mimikyu is outclassed in Stamina & Intelligence.
It would have to massively outskill to beat with only brute force, too, presumably.
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Stomps are just when the other side doesn't have a win condition. It can be coz of resistances or AP or hax or etc.
The illusory double thing could absolutely help, yeah, if they end up using that. I don't think it'd be enough to change my vote from Beholder, given he can just eye ray both of them, but still.
The illusory double thing could absolutely help, yeah, if they end up using that. I don't think it'd be enough to change my vote from Beholder, given he can just eye ray both of them, but still.
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And also illusory copies may have things that give them away as fakes, something a Beholder might perceive, so long as it's not sent into a xenophobically murderous rage at the sudden apparent appearance of more non-Beholders, I suppose.
Anyone know the AP/Durability values? Even if Beholder oneshots with hax, AP may still be relevant for Mimikyu's side.
That's the only thing stopping me from just flat out voting Beholder.
Anyone know the AP/Durability values? Even if Beholder oneshots with hax, AP may still be relevant for Mimikyu's side.
That's the only thing stopping me from just flat out voting Beholder.
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IIRC they scale to Seismic Toss, lemme see if I can find the AP value. Beholder is like 4.8 megatons.
Seismic Toss seems to be 2.5 megatons.
Seismic Toss seems to be 2.5 megatons.
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Oof. So it has the statistical advantage, meaning Mimikyu probably can't beat it down quickly enough.
Where does 4.8 Megatons come from?
Mimikyu lacks options outside of Double Team, Mimic & Copycat. (And also Hone Claws for +ATK/+ACC.)
Due to resistances & recoil, its most useful attacks are probably Slash (+Crit ratio) , Feint Attack (Doesn't miss), Play Rough (More likely to use stick, which unlike shadow/darkness, isn't resisted.), & Wood Hammer, for same reason as PR, but WH has heavy recoil. Maybe Scratch but so weak, lol.
Does Beholder have anything for resisting Pain Split?
Where does 4.8 Megatons come from?
Mimikyu lacks options outside of Double Team, Mimic & Copycat. (And also Hone Claws for +ATK/+ACC.)
Due to resistances & recoil, its most useful attacks are probably Slash (+Crit ratio) , Feint Attack (Doesn't miss), Play Rough (More likely to use stick, which unlike shadow/darkness, isn't resisted.), & Wood Hammer, for same reason as PR, but WH has heavy recoil. Maybe Scratch but so weak, lol.
Does Beholder have anything for resisting Pain Split?
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If we are gonna place votes now, mine is for Beholder. Mimikyu just isn't getting through that AP difference.
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Makes sense. And yeah, at this point, it wasn't so much a matter of "Can Mimikyu win?" so much as "How badly does Mimikyu lose?"
Voting Beholder, Medium Difficulty, for Intelligence, Stamina, higher AP/Durability, & several OHKO options, & its Resistance meaning Mimikyu's best options are fewer than normal melee options, Mimic/Copycat with doges, &/or afterimage spam.
Voting Beholder, Medium Difficulty, for Intelligence, Stamina, higher AP/Durability, & several OHKO options, & its Resistance meaning Mimikyu's best options are fewer than normal melee options, Mimic/Copycat with doges, &/or afterimage spam.
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Everything here makes me think Beholder. Double Team might make it somewhat more difficult, but I don't think the Beholder would have too tough a time.
