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Bayonetta Revisions
- Thread starter ShieldsPlus
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- bayonetta (verse)
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Doesn't Bayo stomp Cole?
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I'm not debating on a CRT but no not if she was 6C
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ExceptJBennett said:
1) There are angels that are specifically stated to have the power to wipe out civilizations, and theyre MUCH weaker than Gracious and Glorious
2) There are FODDERS with magic that can conceal the true size of the ocean which is much larger than what we see on earth
3) Rodin stopped a threat that was going to destroy the planet
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1) you don't need to be 5-B just to wipe out a civilization, any mountain or Island level character can wipe out a civilization giveing a certain amount of time. Any country can do it in less time.
2) And how are we supposed to quantify that?
3) I don't remember that in either game, unless its in one of his profile or something that just mention it. Even if that is true you can't can't use that as proof for Gracious and Glorious because he's top tier and way stronger then them.
2) And how are we supposed to quantify that?
3) I don't remember that in either game, unless its in one of his profile or something that just mention it. Even if that is true you can't can't use that as proof for Gracious and Glorious because he's top tier and way stronger then them.
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1) Exactly my point, the guys who can wipe out civilizations are immensely weaker and SPECIFICALLY stated to be able to wipe out civilizations in their lore and its treated as a huge deal. If they meant that Gracious and Glorious can wipe out all civilizations they would have mentioned it but they didnt.
2) High 6-A, their magic conceals the true size of the ocean.
3) Its in Jeanne's description for Yagyu. And he's constantly depicted as fighting demons that are capable of harming him when he's getting new weapons for Bayonetta, he's visibly harmed and bleeding. This would have been the same result if he went after Alraune, who he planned to fight on his own and transformed into a weapon after bayonetta defeated her. Alraune rivals Madama Butterfly in power. Alraune and MB would be slightly inferior to Rodin.
2) High 6-A, their magic conceals the true size of the ocean.
3) Its in Jeanne's description for Yagyu. And he's constantly depicted as fighting demons that are capable of harming him when he's getting new weapons for Bayonetta, he's visibly harmed and bleeding. This would have been the same result if he went after Alraune, who he planned to fight on his own and transformed into a weapon after bayonetta defeated her. Alraune rivals Madama Butterfly in power. Alraune and MB would be slightly inferior to Rodin.
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@Weekly
I'll just say point 2 isn't a point. Scale of an illusion does not mean it is able to generate High 6-A energy.
I'll just say point 2 isn't a point. Scale of an illusion does not mean it is able to generate High 6-A energy.
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"Considered a creature of the sea due to its fish-like body and multiple tentacle-like arms, Fidelity departed from the ocean to impart humanity with their primeval memories.
Those who forgot their past and begin to disrupt the serenity of life are often dragged by this angel to the darkest depths of the ocean.
The ocean is a sacred place, the area of Earth that is closest to Paradiso, as the intense water pressure of the depths means it has remained untouched by human hands since the beginning of time. A large celestial veil covers the sea's expanse, and until this day there has never been a human who has witnessed the seas in their entirety."
Those who forgot their past and begin to disrupt the serenity of life are often dragged by this angel to the darkest depths of the ocean.
The ocean is a sacred place, the area of Earth that is closest to Paradiso, as the intense water pressure of the depths means it has remained untouched by human hands since the beginning of time. A large celestial veil covers the sea's expanse, and until this day there has never been a human who has witnessed the seas in their entirety."
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1) That still doesn't really proof that Gracious and Glorious should be 5-B.
3) I understand what you are getting at with Yagyu but on that end that still doesn't sit right with me but thats just my opinion, ask others for that. But that alone still isn't proof for 5-B Gracious and Glorious unless your saying they can harm Rodin. besides isn't Rodin weaker normally? I'm pretty sure he's not at his full strength normally.
3) I understand what you are getting at with Yagyu but on that end that still doesn't sit right with me but thats just my opinion, ask others for that. But that alone still isn't proof for 5-B Gracious and Glorious unless your saying they can harm Rodin. besides isn't Rodin weaker normally? I'm pretty sure he's not at his full strength normally.
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1) The fact that angels immensely weaker than Gracious and Glorious are explicitly stated to destroy civilizations would mean that Gracious and Glorious' "Destroying the world with a taste of their power" isnt just referring to destroying civilizations.
3) What im saying is that even if we dont scale using Gracious and Glorious, there are still a LOT of characters who can scale from Rodin alone. And the feat was done in his base form as his stronger forms literally need to be unlocked by an outside source to be able to use them.
3) What im saying is that even if we dont scale using Gracious and Glorious, there are still a LOT of characters who can scale from Rodin alone. And the feat was done in his base form as his stronger forms literally need to be unlocked by an outside source to be able to use them.
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It means the oceans are larger than what we see just by looking at the planet, and even then just covering what we DO see is a High 6-A feat, again done by fodder.JBennett said:
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The term civilization is ambiguous. It's root in latin means city/town/state/community. In history when civilizations are discussed, we usually associate the term with the culture of specific people, such as the Mayan civilization, which spread over southern Mexico, and parts of Central America.
Lets look at angels who can destroy civilizations.
Urbane- Urbane's power to reduce the triumphs of civilization to mere ashes with a single swing of his arm most likely reflects the subconscious fears man harbors toward both the natural world and their own society.
I think it's safe to say this fire elemental angel can burn down entire civilizations given its ability.
Gracious and Glorious- Supposedly gifted with incredible god-like powers there are no records of Gracious or Glorious appearing on the battlefield of evil; however, it is said this is because a mere taste of their power is enough to destroy the world, devastating all its path - both the record and the record-keeper.
Given the lore of these two, they've likely "destroyed the world" before.
2. Which Rodin feat where he saves the planet or w/e
3. How are opening gates 5-B?
Lets look at angels who can destroy civilizations.
Urbane- Urbane's power to reduce the triumphs of civilization to mere ashes with a single swing of his arm most likely reflects the subconscious fears man harbors toward both the natural world and their own society.
I think it's safe to say this fire elemental angel can burn down entire civilizations given its ability.
Gracious and Glorious- Supposedly gifted with incredible god-like powers there are no records of Gracious or Glorious appearing on the battlefield of evil; however, it is said this is because a mere taste of their power is enough to destroy the world, devastating all its path - both the record and the record-keeper.
Given the lore of these two, they've likely "destroyed the world" before.
2. Which Rodin feat where he saves the planet or w/e
3. How are opening gates 5-B?
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1) Except Urbane swinging its arms =/= using fire, and nothing in Gracious and Glorious' lore states thayve destroyed just civilizations.
2) In the description of the weapon Yagyu is states that he saved the earth from being destroyed
3) Since its done through sheer power...?
2) In the description of the weapon Yagyu is states that he saved the earth from being destroyed
3) Since its done through sheer power...?
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Going to bed after this, but in the Urbane description, it literally says it turns entire civilizations to ash. That and it being a fire based angel, there's a 99.9% chance it's doing so via fire. Busting a city for example turns it into crumbs, not ashes. Also the balls at the ends of its arms can be lit on fire , as Gravitas can have ice on its arms.
2. From what I read it says a certain planet, but assuming it's earth, it can also be High 6-A. Given that Yagyu = Takemikazuchi which was stated to split the heavens and make the Earth tremble, it is likely High 6-A
3. What about this gate makes opening it 5-B?
2. From what I read it says a certain planet, but assuming it's earth, it can also be High 6-A. Given that Yagyu = Takemikazuchi which was stated to split the heavens and make the Earth tremble, it is likely High 6-A
3. What about this gate makes opening it 5-B?
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1. Yes, with a swing of its arm, which is a literal wrecking ball. Urbane doest even have any actual projectile fire-based attacks, only a giant laser as a ranged attack, with fire just being a biproduct of its physical attacks, so no, its not doing it via fire, its doing it via a physical attack.
2. Preventing the planet from being destroyed is 5-B feat
3. The fact that only Loki and Loptr have the power to do so?
2. Preventing the planet from being destroyed is 5-B feat
3. The fact that only Loki and Loptr have the power to do so?
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I think what UMR is asking is how the gate opening is 5B and not how opening it makes her around the people who can.
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Isn't it nice that the same people who were 100% okay with Planet level ToAru via statements are going against it for Bayonetta. The bias in this thread's making and response is transparent like glass.
Angels have lore like that says they can swallow countries, destroy continents, create every weather phenomena on Earth, control the ocean as a whole, etc etc.
5-B for higher ranking angels who are stated to have planet destroying powers is fine. This OP not only ommits a lotbut also chooses to appeal to calcs for feats that don't need any calculations.
Angels have lore like that says they can swallow countries, destroy continents, create every weather phenomena on Earth, control the ocean as a whole, etc etc.
5-B for higher ranking angels who are stated to have planet destroying powers is fine. This OP not only ommits a lotbut also chooses to appeal to calcs for feats that don't need any calculations.
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We don't have to result to calling out others. Can we not just have civilized discussion?
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Sure but it doesn't change the fact that the OP here completely ignores the actual reasons for 5-B. Nothing is changing.
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Matt, in all seriousness, you try to downgrade Fiamma from 5B, but you aren't going against Bayonetta? I'm assuming you're just saying if Fiamma can stay this can To and that's completely fine.
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What he went for is irrelevant as it was denied. As such if one character is allowed to do it, then we have to show consistency. "If you can beat them, Join them".
Either way just stay civil. Don't turn every Bayonetta thread into a mess.
Either way just stay civil. Don't turn every Bayonetta thread into a mess.
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Don't make Bayonetta become like it's precessor.
Disagreed FRA
Disagreed FRA
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5-B Bayonetta has like 10 times more evidence than 5-B Fiamma but if two flimsy statements are enough evidence for you then I assume all the various feats and statements even for fodder angels Should be enough for Bayo.
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For me?
I assure you I meant no harm by that.
I assure you I meant no harm by that.
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Neither do I.
Tho the reasons for the downgrade in this thread are quite poor.
Tho the reasons for the downgrade in this thread are quite poor.
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- Thread starter
- #67
The reasons for the downgrade are valid, as it seems. It's just that said reason for Planet level Bayonetta were exaggerated more than it had to be.
"Angels have lore like that says they can swallow countries, destroy continents, create every weather phenomena on Earth, control the ocean as a whole, etc etc."
But then, the only one who has shown any sort of planet busting capabilities, or higher (and this was shown in a cutscene/gameplay hybrid of something) is Jublieus, who should be >>> other angels, considering that the angels were trying to revive her in order to combine the Trinity of Realities.
"Angels have lore like that says they can swallow countries, destroy continents, create every weather phenomena on Earth, control the ocean as a whole, etc etc."
- Which angels are able to destroy continents with a single blow? Is there a specific lord for that angel(s) that show or state this?
- Gracious and Glorious are top-ranked angels, which is why they would be at least stronger than the other angels (and those that scale) below those guys, not to mention that these are considered Seraphims, which are also stated in scriptures to be angels closest to god/highest ranked.
But then, the only one who has shown any sort of planet busting capabilities, or higher (and this was shown in a cutscene/gameplay hybrid of something) is Jublieus, who should be >>> other angels, considering that the angels were trying to revive her in order to combine the Trinity of Realities.
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The problem, my guy, is that you are unable to seemingly understand the concept of scaling. You see a description for a higher-angel that is not Planet level, you immediately treat the descriptions of lesser angels as outliers, regardless of ever considering that they simply might scale up from there.
And you are incorrect. Many show planetary capabilities even in their feat. There's an angel who surrounds the true depth and length of the ocean in a barrier, making it so that the humans can only perceive and interact with a fraction of it, which is High 6-A. There's another angel who controls all weather phenomena on Earth, and another who can destroy worlds.
And you are incorrect. Many show planetary capabilities even in their feat. There's an angel who surrounds the true depth and length of the ocean in a barrier, making it so that the humans can only perceive and interact with a fraction of it, which is High 6-A. There's another angel who controls all weather phenomena on Earth, and another who can destroy worlds.
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Also you ignore Base Rodin's power.
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- Thread starter
- #70
"And you are incorrect. Many show planetary capabilities even in their feat. There's an angel who surrounds the true depth and length of the ocean in a barrier, making it so that the humans can only perceive and interact with a fraction of it, which is High 6-A. There's another angel who controls all weather phenomena on Earth, and another who can destroy worlds."
- None of these feats listed require planet busting yields to perform them.
- Controlling weather phenomena can range wildly, such as creating a storm, hurricane, or a drought. But then, even creating a weather phenomenon on a global scale would only have the energy to bust a continent, or somewhere around there.
- What is the context of the "destroy worlds" feat? Scans of said angel who could perform this feat would be appreciated, that is, if the "world" even refers to a planet in the first place.
- Also, humans can already only perceive and interact with a tiny fraction of the ocean, considering that they are literally microscopic in comparison to the entirety of the Earth's oceans themselves.
- What are Base Rodin's planet busting feats again? Who does he scale to that are able to successfully planet bust?
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The point is going over your head again.
The point is that vastly weaker angels have Continental levels of power, so 5-B for the Cardinal Archangels is fine scaling from Glorious and Gracious who are weaker than them.
Controlling all weather phenomena would almost certainly be at least continental.
And destroying the world means destroying the Earth in this context, the world of the humans.
And the point is that the ocean is even more gigantic than it seems to us.
@Weekly
Rodin's feat?
The point is that vastly weaker angels have Continental levels of power, so 5-B for the Cardinal Archangels is fine scaling from Glorious and Gracious who are weaker than them.
Controlling all weather phenomena would almost certainly be at least continental.
And destroying the world means destroying the Earth in this context, the world of the humans.
And the point is that the ocean is even more gigantic than it seems to us.
@Weekly
Rodin's feat?
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The problem with that logic Matt is that there is 6876.92x energy difference between base Continental to base Planet( if I counted it right). Unless The weaker Angels have feats or statments that are close to Planet level I doubt that jump would be accepted without feats. Also only Gracious and Glorious has the World-busting statment, even the Angels above Gracious and Glorious doesn't have any statments that match G&G.
In terms of pure statments alone G&G are above almost any Angel in the games, supressed Jubilarous herself which I doubt anyone would agree to, I'm currently reading through all the lore for the Angels so If I find any other I'll mention it,
In terms of pure statments alone G&G are above almost any Angel in the games, supressed Jubilarous herself which I doubt anyone would agree to, I'm currently reading through all the lore for the Angels so If I find any other I'll mention it,
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You are:
1. Ignoring 6-A and High 6-A feats for weak angels on purpose.
2. Ignoring scaling completely.
3. Arguing that just because the Cardinal Archangels don't have 5-B feats they can't scale from 5-B Seraphs.
It's quite a silly prospect, really.
C&G are beneath the Cardinal Archangels and Bayonetta and Rodin and etc.
Or do you think Beginning of Z Piccolo is stronger than Fused Zamasu due to feats?
1. Ignoring 6-A and High 6-A feats for weak angels on purpose.
2. Ignoring scaling completely.
3. Arguing that just because the Cardinal Archangels don't have 5-B feats they can't scale from 5-B Seraphs.
It's quite a silly prospect, really.
C&G are beneath the Cardinal Archangels and Bayonetta and Rodin and etc.
Or do you think Beginning of Z Piccolo is stronger than Fused Zamasu due to feats?
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Okay so I went through the Angels and out of all the angels only Fidelity, Ubrane, Gracious and Glorious, Sapientia, and Temperanitia are the only angels that have lore that can be world effecting(world not as in planet). in terms of scaling by sphere and status they rank by
Fidelity< Urbane< Gracious and Glorious<Sepientia~ Temperantia.
In terms of lore this is how it ranks within these six;
Temperantia ~ Urbane ~ Sepientia< Fidelity< Gracious and Glorious.
I havent gone through the Demons yet but thats just with the Angels so thoughts
Fidelity< Urbane< Gracious and Glorious<Sepientia~ Temperantia.
In terms of lore this is how it ranks within these six;
Temperantia ~ Urbane ~ Sepientia< Fidelity< Gracious and Glorious.
I havent gone through the Demons yet but thats just with the Angels so thoughts
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There's a demon who is said to be able to "Control time and the sun", just saying. It's considered vage but planet-destroying isn't the highest they go.
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1. With a swing of its arm (which can produce fire), it can reduce a civilization to ash. Fire is the only thing that can produce ash.WeeklyBattles said:
2. A weapon that can only split the clouds and shake the Earth isn't 5-B, it's 6-A.
3. You're saying because they're 5-B they can open a gate? Are you also saying the other 5-Bs are incapable? Maybe its due to their positions as gods?
Also we don't use the Fidelity description for 6-A. The problem is scaling vs statements, and the fact that we're going to have to pick one over the other.
The four cardinal virtues are accepted by pretty much everyone here + the lore to be far superior to standard angels. Then we have a statement from the lore of Temperantia (arguably the strongest of the bunch) stating that at its true power, it can create a tornado capable of swallowing an entire country, which I've found to be consistently 6-C.
Ignoring what the lore states their true power is for scaling is headcanon, and is just as bad as saying because Roshi has a moon busting feat in DB while Goku and Piccolo didn't, everyone scales to be moon level.
This would mean the lore is blatantly false, or Gracious and Glorious's lore is an outlier. In addition, Gracious and Glorious's lore is at best 6-A. They're stated to have no records on them because a mere taste of their power can destroy the world, meaning it's likely happened before, meaning the Earth was still intact. Why assume their full power is automatically 5-B?
Hekatoncheir who is known as "Shatterer of the Earth" was summoned by Bayo to destroy Temperantia, and it's lore states that it is capable of pulverizing mountains, and using Mount Fuji as said mountain, also produces 6-C results.
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From what I'm gathering I see no statements that actually mean planet busting. From what I'm reading it seems like these are more along the lines of tier 7-6, I'll have to agree with Rice here.
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Their lore isn't an outlier. It says that they can destroy the Earth, it's 5-B.
Once again people's only argument is the fact that the Cardinal Archangels don't have 5-B feats / statements.
The Moon-busting comparison for Dragon Ball is a fallacy because people struggle to do 7-B feats, meanwhile Bayonetta angels have consistent High-end Tier 6 feats.
And the guy who does the Tier 5 feat is stronger than the Tier 6 people.
Furthermore, I relaly don't see the Urbane point.
People are just really downplaying here because "Oh, weaker characters only have weaker feats, so the stronger character having a stronger feat is an outlier".
And please don't give me the stuff about the Cardinal Archangels. Or else we should probably downgrade everyone not UI Tier in DBS to less than 3-A.
Hell, Merged Zamasu has worst feats than Beginning of Z Piccolo, but that doesn't mean Piccolo's feat is an outlier.
Once again people's only argument is the fact that the Cardinal Archangels don't have 5-B feats / statements.
The Moon-busting comparison for Dragon Ball is a fallacy because people struggle to do 7-B feats, meanwhile Bayonetta angels have consistent High-end Tier 6 feats.
And the guy who does the Tier 5 feat is stronger than the Tier 6 people.
Furthermore, I relaly don't see the Urbane point.
People are just really downplaying here because "Oh, weaker characters only have weaker feats, so the stronger character having a stronger feat is an outlier".
And please don't give me the stuff about the Cardinal Archangels. Or else we should probably downgrade everyone not UI Tier in DBS to less than 3-A.
Hell, Merged Zamasu has worst feats than Beginning of Z Piccolo, but that doesn't mean Piccolo's feat is an outlier.
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Also:
"these feats only have surface-busting so this feat which says it can destroy the world is only surface-busting as well" is a non-sequitur.
All the Tier 6 stuff involve things like weather phenomena, the ocean, destroying countries, shaking the world, reducing civilizations to ash, etc etc.
G&G are the only time where they outright say "Destroy the world". That puts it a step above all those feats, one of which is casually High 6-A.
"these feats only have surface-busting so this feat which says it can destroy the world is only surface-busting as well" is a non-sequitur.
All the Tier 6 stuff involve things like weather phenomena, the ocean, destroying countries, shaking the world, reducing civilizations to ash, etc etc.
G&G are the only time where they outright say "Destroy the world". That puts it a step above all those feats, one of which is casually High 6-A.
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