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Bayonetta: Irenic Downgrade

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Austrian-Man-Meat

Austrian-Man-Meat

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Currently, Irenic is ranked as having MFTL+ speed due to it being stated to being able to cross the human world in about a day .

I disagree with this rating and propose for it to be replaced as it violates this rule, I shall elaborate on my claim.

In this segment of the game , we see Bayonetta is riding a motorbike which has a speedometer present on it. The speedometer reads things in km/h (the bottom, it's hard to make out ) and maxes out at about 300km/h. This segment is running in real time as nothing indicates Bayonetta to have activated witch time and that the other vehicles on the highway appear to not suffer from any major slow down. With that said the Irenic is moving at comparable speeds to Bayonetta (who's max should be 300km/h) which is incredibly detrimental to what it supposedly can do. As what we've seen contradicts what it's stated to do, I request for this speed to be removed and be replaced with something more appropriate.
 
Because it's slowing down to hit her?

Also low end feats don't make high ends go away.
 
... Did you read Bayonetta profile and why she is MTFL+ This is why.

Edit:There's also the matter of what Gargoyle said
 
Also.

"If it contradicts" put HEAVY emphasis on that, we have two MFTL+ feats performed by Jubileus at the end of the game.
 
300 KM/H is a low-end even for the speed we rated Bayonetta before the Massively FTL+ upgrade. Furthermore, Jubileus can fly from Mercury to Pluto in seconds so Irenic isn't the only Faster-than-Light feat.
 
"Also low end feats don't make high ends go away."

Not when a feat contradicts a statement, in this case, the feat takes the up-most priority.

"Because it's slowing down to hit her?"

Proof? And even when it isn't you can simply calculate the comparison of speed between the two which I'm sure will be a far cry from MFTL+

"If it contradicts" put HEAVY emphasis on that, we have two MFTL+ feats performed by Jubileus at the end of the game."

Why should that matter? I just want to downgrade Irenic, not Bayonetta (although she would have her speed lowered as a result of Irenic being downgraded iirc).
 
It matters because even Bayonetta's lowest speed feats greatly surpass 300 KM/H, meaning that her even needing a motorcycle that only goes that fast is pure PIS.
 
Because even disregarding the MFTL+ feats Bayo still has a lot of feats that are far higher than 30km/h.

Edit: Ninjaed by Matt.
 
1. Which it doesn't as it's an obvious low end, just like Goku getting hurt by a bullet.

2. The thing using it's breaks when it comes into view? And it being far faster when we first see it?

3. Because it is again a low-end feat that is contradicted by multiple other feats and statements.
 
"It matters because even Bayonetta's lowest speed feats greatly surpass 300 KM/H"

I can't recall much if any moments where Bayonetta greatly surpasses 300km/h with travel speed alone without the use of witch time.

"meaning that her even needing a motorcycle that only goes that fast is pure PIS."

How does this change that if we go with comparing Irenic's speed to Bayonetta's, it wouldn't be MFTL+?
 
"Travel Speed" as an argument is frankly irrelevant for a character who at her slowest can casually outspeed bullets.

It changes because your argument is basically: "This feat which is lower than anything else in the franchise justifies ignoring a better feat". We are pointing how your complaint doesn't even have much basis for a downgrade since Irenic's speed is much faster than 300 KM/H one way or another.
 
You...Don't?

There's multiple MHS+, Sub Rel, and MFTL+ feats in the game, have you played the game? Hell half the game is you dodging lightning to activate Witch Time.

It is MFTL+ that's why it's rated that way.

This is no better then saying Goku is peak human because he gets hurt by a bullet.
 
"This is no better then saying Goku is peak human because he gets hurt by a bullet."

That isn't equivalent to what I'm doing though since we have a feat which is way lower than what was stated these angles could do. Which in this case, is a justifiable reason for reasons for a revision as the rule I linked suggests.

"Travel Speed" as an argument is frankly irrelevant for a character who at her slowest can casually outspeed bullets."

Dodging/reactions aren't tantamount to the speeds you run at, otherwise, we would have MLB players who can easily outpace Usain Bolt.

"This feat which is lower than anything else in the franchise justifies ignoring a better feat"

As I said to Gargoyle, my point was that the speed we can actually see it travel at greatly contradicts what it's stated to do. Therefore we downgrade it. Also, why should we leave Irenic alone? It's faster than Jubileus. And it's not like you can say for certain that Jubileus flying back to Bayonetta would want to do it in a casual manner or in a way that would prevent her from going full speed.
 
"Dodging/reactions aren't tantamount to the speeds you run at, otherwise, we would have MLB players who can easily outpace Usain Bolt."

Are you going to use the Usan Bolt vs Bruce Lee fallacy now?

I'm just going to quote ChaosTheory here:

Average humans react in .3 seconds, a "peak human" reacts a pithy 3 times faster. Peak human punch speed is something like 19 m/s. It would sub human to divide that punching speed by 3. It would be akin to a generic run between the pace of a sprint and jog for the average asshole.
Even the widest gap between human reaction and movement doesn't exceed 1/200th a human's speed vs whatever they're manually operating (do we even manually operate hypersonic shit?)
And there's a difference to being able to react to a stimulus and Having the muscle memory appropriate to move accordingly
So even if Bolt receives the signals as fast as another ****** that is predisposed to move accordingly, Bolt lacking that will either waste movements trying to defend or make an incorrect knee jerk reaction anyway
This only matters however when the combatants are roughly on a similar scale, a vast disparity mitigates any effect skill can or will have
"That isn't equivalent to what I'm doing"

Yes it is. You are taking something lower than anything else in the entire series to argue that Massively FTL+ is wrong even though 300 KM/H would be a massive low-end even if we would had Bayonetta at MHS+.

"my point was that the speed we can actually see it travel at greatly contradicts what it's stated to do"

The "speed" of 300 KM/H is what greatly contradicts any other feat in the series thefore it is an invalid reason to downgrade anything.

"Also, why should we leave Irenic alone? It's faster than Jubileus."

Never heard of scaling.
 
That's exactly what you're doing and it's no different, it's also massively below other feats in the series, perfectly equivalent.

Terrible example with Usain bolt, normal short distance reactions with your arms tend to be much faster, in fact they always are.

The speed we see them travel at is still far faster, you're using an example of a 300km feat when Irenic isn't even trying to go fast for the reasons I've already stated, and using it to downgrade Irenic when it has no trouble keeping up with a consistent lightning dodger.

Where's your proof Irenic is faster then Jubileus? Why would they be faster then something so MASSIVELY stronger then them?
 
I'm not saying nobody is FTL and that they're 300km/h tops, I'm saying that the speed we see Irenic move at clearly contradicts what he's stated to move at and therefore should be downgraded to that speed. Unless he's got another better travel speed feat. On top of that, the calculation for its stated speed surpasses Jubileus' top speed (as there are no reasons as to why she would be flying towards Bayonetta at a speed slower than her top speed) by a considerable margin which is concerning for Irenic.

"Are you going to use the Usan Bolt vs Bruce Lee fallacy now?"

What you quoted is just pseudoscience for why reaction speeds being vastly lower than travel-speeds is impossible, because of humans having low differences between stats and therefore it must be the case for someone like Bayonetta. We might as well scale striking strength to lifting strength or striking strength to speed because generally, the widest gap doesn't exceed 1/200. There also exist many profiles which have wide-gaps for reaction and travel speeds, for example, where is Batmans supersonic+ travel feat?
 
"I'm not saying nobody is FTL and that they're 300km/h tops"

So if you agree that they aren't 300 KM/H tops either way why bring it up as an argument? It's no different than bringing up Goku being hit by a bullet to argue that he is Planet level. It's nonsense.

"Unless he's got another better travel speed feat"

He has. It's in the Laguna entry. Jubileus isn't concerning it just further reinforces Bayonetta being Faster than Light.

It's not pseudoscience, it is an argument proving that you are effectively saying with regards to the Usain Bolt example is that the fastest human reaction speed is only going to be about 3 times faster than Bolt's. Just like how Bolt's record running speed is only 9.39500 times faster than the average human walking speed.

Bruce Lee vs Usain Bolt is a fallacious example that does not apply to fictional characters.
 
"So if you agree that they aren't 300 KM/H tops either way why bring it up as an argument?"

Because there is no way anyone in that particular scene was moving at MFTL+ speeds.

"He has. It's in the Laguna entry."

That's a statement, which is contradicted by what we see it do. Which according to our rules, is grounds for revising it.

"Jubileus isn't concerning it just further reinforces Bayonetta being Faster than Light."

I'm talking Irenic here, a fodder being much faster than one of the god tiers going at top speed. That is outlier material right here for Irenic if the discrepancies for the stated and shown travel speeds weren't damning enough.

"It's not pseudoscience,"

It is for reasons aforementioned, and you mind explaining what your other point is? I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
"Because there is no way anyone in that particular scene was moving at MFTL+ speeds."

So? It makes it a low-end. Ignorei t.

"That's a statement, which is contradicted by what we see it do. Which according to our rules, is grounds for revising it."

It's a canonical statement. The entire purpose of Irenic is to traverse Paradiso. He is the Angels' means of transportation across an entire universe. It makes far more sense for it to be MFTL+ than 300 KMH.

"I'm talking Irenic here, a fodder being much faster than one of the god tiers going at top speed."

He isn't faster than Jubileus. Scaling 101.

"It is for reasons aforementioned"

I saw no reasons. I proved that using Usain Bolt as an argument for fictional things is meaningless. If you want to use an argument to justify a Travel / Combat speed divide, use something else because real life doesn't help you in the slightest.
 
"Because there is no way anyone in that particular scene was moving at MFTL+ speeds."

Proof? Just because we can see them in-game doesnt mean theyre not moving that fast.
 
"So? It makes it a low-end. Ignorei t."

I don't see many other Bayonetta/Irenic travel speed feats it contradicts with. Aside from the statement that is.

"The entire purpose of Irenic is to traverse Paradiso. He is the Angels' means of transportation across an entire universe. It makes far more sense for it to be MFTL+ than 300 KMH."

That doesn't change the fact that Irenic didn't move at MFTL+ speeds during that scene breaking or not. And why should it matter if the statement was canonical or not? Contradictory statements at the end of the day are ultimately contradictory statements.

"He isn't faster than Jubileus. Scaling 101"

Roshi busting the moon was deemed an outlier as a stronger character with their most powerful attack failed to hit those same levels, Irenic (a fodder) is orders of magnitudes faster than one of the god tiers of the verse going at top speed. I fail to see how this isn't an outlier.

"Proof? Just because we can see them in-game doesnt mean theyre not moving that fast."

The speedometer shows what speed Bayonetta is going at, therefore you can just calculate the differences in speed between Irenic and Bayonetta which no matter how you do it won't be MFTL+.

"I saw no reasons."

It is pseudoscience because...

"because of humans having low differences between stats and therefore it must be the case for someone like Bayonetta. We might as well scale striking strength to lifting strength or striking strength to speed because generally, the widest gap doesn't exceed 1/200. There also exist many profiles which have wide-gaps for reaction and travel speeds, for example, where is Batmans supersonic+ travel feat?"
 
You haven't? Dodging lightning? Jubileus's feats? You haven't seen them because you're ignoring them.
 
"You haven't? Dodging lightning? Jubileus's feats? You haven't seen them because you're ignoring them"

I'm talking Irenic travel speed feats here not Bayonetta's reactions. It's not like we have fifty Irenic feats of him going MFTL and this one segment where he goes 300+km/h. It's him being stated to be MFTL (while also being described as if going faster than the wind is impressive) while its showings max out at 300+km/h.
 
Jubileus has a FTL+ travel speed feat (Weekly recalced it at MFTL/MFTL+).

Please explain how you can traverse a universe in a reasonable time without being MFTL+.

Roshi is an outlier because levels of power like this aren't reached until the Saiyan saga. Bayonetta has other FTL feats in the same game.

Or you could count it as PIS because it's immensely slower than anything in the verse.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
"You haven't? Dodging lightning? Jubileus's feats? You haven't seen them because you're ignoring them"

I'm talking Irenic travel speed feats here not Bayonetta's reactions. It's not like we have fifty Irenic feats of him going MFTL and this one segment where he goes 300+km/h. It's him being stated to be MFTL (while also being described as if going faster than the wind is impressive) while its showings max out at 300+km/h.
Click to expand...
Ironically you say they're only 300km when they're reacting to Bayonetta
 
"The speedometer shows what speed Bayonetta is going at, therefore you can just calculate the differences in speed between Irenic and Bayonetta which no matter how you do it won't be MFTL+."

And literally everything else in the game contradicts that. Its a case of authors not knowing how powerful they made their characters.

Your entire argument here boils down to "We can see them moving in-game and the spedometer says youre only going 300 KM/H, so they must not be MFTL+" even though the lore and every speed feat in the game heavily contradicts that.
 
If they can react to Bayonetta they are at minimum MHS+. Using 300 KMH as an argument is inane.

And there's nothing contradicting about Irenic being Massively FTL+. it's an angel car designed to traverse Paradiso, a universe.

It's not pseudoscience.
 
"Jubileus has a FTL+ travel speed feat (Weekly recalced it at MFTL/MFTL+)."

How does that relate with a fodder who's shown speed feats contradict their stated feats and are also anomalous when you take into consideration that its orders of magnitude above the calc you've mentioned in that post which is performed by one of the god tiers going full speed.

"Please explain how you can traverse a universe in a reasonable time without being MFTL+."

It's been around way before the concept of history, who said it needed to be a reasonable amount of time. Also, if the stated speed is contradictory how much of it can you really take as fact. Also, even if I would accept the statement Irenic was blatantly not going at MFTL+ speeds in this scene for unknown reasons which would also result in Bayonetta not scaling to it. As scaling someone to another who's holding back by orders of magnitude is suspicious.

"Your entire argument here boils down to "We can see them moving in-game and the spedometer says youre only going 300 KM/H, so they must not be MFTL+" even though the lore and every speed feat in the game heavily contradicts that."

As I said, that isn't my point. It's that Irenic was blatantly not moving at MFTL+ speeds in that scene which contradicts what it's stated to do. Even if we assume it held back its speed by orders of magnitude in this scene why should it even be scaled to Bayonetta, to begin with?
 
@AMM

It relates because it shows that Superluminal Speeds aren't an anomaly in Bayonetta but rather something that happens multiple time.

It is a short-timeframe because they give a timeframe of 1 day, and "Concept of History" in this case is poetic language meant to indicate that the angels predate humanity. They don't predate time itself.

The scene doesn't exist in a vacuum, if we know it can move at Massively FTL+ speeds and Bayo can react to a speeding Irenic, than Bayo has MFTL+ reactions.

Basic.
 
Lol, reacts to Bayonetta who is MFTL+ via other feats but noooooooooooo, it's only 300km because of the speedometer on a bike that is also wrong due to measuring the wrong speed when Jeanne travels up the rocket with the same bike.
 
Actually Jubileus perform said feat after receiving a brutal beating from Bayonetta. Also the fact that the best feats aren't from the god tiers is completely normal for 99,99999% of fiction.

Irenic still scale to Bayo because she defeated Jubileus who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irenic.

I really doubt that angels have so much time to waste that needing centuries and centuries to cross Paradiso wouldn't be a problem (which would still be MFTL+)
 
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