Battle of the Squirrel Girls (Grace)

[Ikelaggan]

@Ikelaggan You mean the thing with Celica blessing people she likes, Makoto included alongside her having the power of order? Yeah a resistance to a bunch of hax is not the same thing as arguing for an in character move so try again.

Bruh, You literally pulled a what aboutism earlier when I claimed makoto doesn't directly resist this one aspect of PI and brought up explamples of conjoined powers with multiple haxes but the moment we mention something that's innate in toon physiology as a whole at low tiers and above, not a does or doesn't do this in character thing.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

@JustANormalLemon You're pulling a No Limits fallacy here, especially when Makoto literally has powers to negate one's healing and even fight against characters who have the ability to just undo damage

Invulnerability is something completly diferent from healing or "undo damage"

And It's not a "no limit fallacy" whem she is fighting against someone that is literaly in the exactly same ap level as her and other character slappy has foughted with, "no limit fallacy" would be saying "a character tier 9-B with invulnerability would take no damage with a punch from a high 3-A character", toons only take damage if it's for comic effect in the current situation

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Saying this is a "No limit fallacy" is really not a argument

 

[Ikelaggan]

The invulnerability kinda seals the deal at this point, cause makoto doesn't have any durability negation options to get around that

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ikelaggan Except the scan in question isn't saying all toon force characters have this ability, just showing Bugs bunny being able to come back like this. The invulnerability? You mean the thing that the main evidence is someone being harmed by 3 different things and is still visibly injured after said demonstration? Yeah no I'm not buying this being an instant wincon, otherwise I'd seriously have to question why Maidrips would make this for a "fair matchup" if Makoto literally couldn't harm her.

@JustANormalLemon Saying cartoon invulnerability isn't really an argument as the only example of someone having invulnerability is someone getting harmed by 3 different things and still being visibly injured.

@MaidRips I see, either way if she gets knocked out cold Makoto just needs to knock out her ghost to seal the deal. Especially if she's gonna be too focused on trying to wake up her physical body which would leave her exposed.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

[@MaidRips I see, either way if she gets knocked out cold Makoto just needs to knock out her ghost to seal the deal. Especially if she's gonna be too focused on trying to wake up her physical body which would leave her exposed.

It wouldn’t be too difficult for Slappy. All she has to do at this point is see Makoto coming, hold out her hand, and suspend her with her telekinesis. To my knowledge, she doesn’t exactly have Enhanced Senses or anything like that, but she is capable of micromanaging combat casually. Especially when the example in question was happening, Slappy was just having a stroll and a talk with her nephew, when the dog attacked out of nowhere, she didn’t seem surprised and just held up her hand to suspend him.

I think at that point, especially if she whips out some projectiles, she is very much going to be inclined to use her telekinesis more. Not to mention, while it took a while for Bugs to wake himself up, Slappy has seen that cartoon and would likely say something like, “Ah, Rabbit Transit. 1947. I got just the thing.” And immediately go for the water bucket to do the job instead of going for all the extra stuff.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Instinctual Actions will also help a lot with this.

 

[Theglassman12]

Are you referring to the dog that’s being used as a test dummy for cartoon characters not getting hurt? Doesn’t that harm your point on her spamming telekinesis as a wincon because he stopped being frozen for the explosives? Plus Makoto’s enhanced senses is to the point that anyone else she sees becomes slow motion in comparison so if Slappy lacks anything like that it would be an issue for her as Makoto can see it coming from a mile away.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

That’s Walter Wolf and no. I am referring to this dog.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Also, I don’t think that would help Makoto in this situation since it’s not something that can really be dodged as you would a projectile or a physical strike. It’s just a wave of one’s hand to immobilize them. You could make the argument that it’s only temporary but as we saw with the lesser-toon’s example, they can also suspend them in the air for quite a bit and redirect the movement of whatever’s in their path. Also from that example, their hand doesn’t need to stay outstretched for the victim to stay suspended, meaning Slappy could do whatever she wants to while she’s held still.

 

[Theglassman12]

That doesn’t really sound like an instant wincon to me, you made it sound like she can just be frozen forever with telekinesis while Slappy just drops bombs on her but now I know it’s just a temporary thing which just stops when she does anything else. Makoto will see it coming and throw her off whether it’s the projectiles or her shadow clones to get an advantage.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I just said that it doesn’t.

 

[Theglassman12]

So it’s not an instant wincon then, it’s just one trick that can work on Makoto but she can adapt to her situation easily.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Adapt while she’s not able to move? Slappy’s not going to give her that chance. By that time, she’ll do what she did with another particularly tough customer.. Just give her a bunch of explosions and send her rocketing into space. Not sure if she'll be able to return to the battlefield unless flight is just a thing that's not on her profile, but it will make it extremely difficult.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

@JustANormalLemon Saying cartoon invulnerability isn't really an argument as the only example of someone having invulnerability is someone getting harmed by 3 different things and still being visibly injured.

Slappy is a old cartoon star, her statig "no one get's hurt in cartoons" basically mean that even if they look like they took damage, they didn't, toonforce + toon phisiology just makes them able to break eaxh other habilities and all for comic effect

This should be added alread sinse It's 1 vs 8 votes

I will unfollow now

 

[Theglassman12]

@MaidRips that’s assuming she can make Makoto stand still long enough for the bombs to explode on her face, as for adaptation she literally adapted to the Embryo, who’s mere existence was messing with reality in a bunch of different ways, that plus she knows what she’s gonna use with her telekinesis so she can anticipate it coming and get around it.

@JustANormalLemon Thats not invulnerability, especially when the scan itself literally has a cartoon character still visibly injured from the harm that Slappy brought onto him.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

@MaidRips that’s assuming she can make Makoto stand still long enough for the bombs to explode on her face, as for adaptation she literally adapted to the Embryo, who’s mere existence was messing with reality in a bunch of different ways, that plus she knows what she’s gonna use with her telekinesis so she can anticipate it coming and get around it.

Then, tell me. How long does it take for Makoto to adapt to something? You make it sound as if it’s something that’s instantaneous.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Also the invulnerability thing is backed up by the fact that they're invulnerable to the point that they're not in any danger of dying, as they can still take punishment, but nothing will ever just be enough to finish them off. Buster states the only way to truly hurt a cartoon is to rip up their pages, but as we see later on, Elmyra is okay regardless. Further backed up by Yakko saying he's impervious to physical harm. They can still feel pain (sometimes), but when they do, it's only for the sake of a bit.

 

[Ikelaggan]

It's been 4 days since grace is this gonna end soon.

 

[Theglassman12]

@MaidRips that’s literally not invulnerability, she just goes through the cars because she’s a drawing. Also feeling pain sometimes is still an anti feat for their invulnerability because the whole point of invulnerability is you’re immune to conventional harm by default. None of what’s shown on the page is remotely invulnerability since they’re still harmed by conventional things.

Its close to instantaneous as she was recently absorbed into the embryo, yet Relius states she’s capable of adapting while inside of the Embryo, similar to what he said with Terumi on how he’s evolved to work perfectly fine in the Embryo with little to no repercussions.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

@MaidRips that’s literally not invulnerability, she just goes through the cars because she’s a drawing. Also feeling pain sometimes is still an anti feat for their invulnerability because the whole point of invulnerability is you’re immune to conventional harm by default. None of what’s shown on the page is remotely invulnerability since they’re still harmed by conventional things.

They can selectively pick and choose what can hurt them and what cannot. Toon Physics have shown to be on multiple occasions -- most notably from the official guidebook -- to be thought-based, which would explain why some things can hurt them, and what can't. As long as they choose to believe that it won't hurt them, they'll keep their invulnerability active. Trained toons like Slappy have learned to harness this ability.

Its close to instantaneous as she was recently absorbed into the embryo, yet Relius states she’s capable of adapting while inside of the Embryo, similar to what he said with Terumi on how he’s evolved to work perfectly fine in the Embryo with little to no repercussions.

Can you show a scan of this? Most of the scans available are just stills without the context behind them.

 

[Theglassman12]

That sounds more like Subjective reality than it does Invulnerability if they’re just deciding when they feel like getting hurt, either that or some form of attack negation which Makoto luckily has a way to bypass that.

The entire plot of Central Fiction revolves around everyone being stuck in an Embryo, a literal Phenomena Intervention embodied in a being absorbing the Multiverse and causing Doomsday, which ends all of existence. Everyone’s Act 1 arcade mode is the literal start of the story as everyone just got absorbed into the Embryo and their memories were messed with. There’s only a handful of characters who aren’t affected by the Embryo’s influence, Relius included. In the start of his act 1 arcade mode he runs into Makoto and takes interest in her on how she’s capable of adapting while inside the Embryo, he mentions the same thing to Terumi in his act 1 arcade on how he’s able to adapt well in the Embryo, plus Relius is one of if not the most intelligent characters in the series and he always speaks scientifically about any situation so there’s little to no reason for him to lie, especially when his whole thing is about studying people’s souls for more knowledge. So yeah Makoto despite being oblivious to what’s happening with the Embryo is adapting to her environment, and it happened in a short time frame as again it’s right after everyone just got absorbed into the Embryo.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

So, she can adapt to her environment/PI/etc., but has there ever been a circumstance where she's used this power to break out of telekinesis? It does seem to work on Phenomena Intervention, but can she use this in any other circumstance? It doesn't even seem like she's aware of this.

 

[Theglassman12]

No one’s used telekinesis as a freezing option against others in the series, but it’s such a minor ability that in comparison to PI, Makoto should be able to get around it eventually, It’s a subconscious thing with her adaptation, same with Noel’s PI where the PI just happens without Noel even noticing she’s doing it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

But has it worked in any circumstance that wasn't a PI? It could be that they're just reacting to the PI. If anyone else used a different non-PI ability against them, would the results still be the same?

 

[Theglassman12]

If you wanna include the time Makoto got sucked into the Boundary during Continuum shift and despite not being aware of what happened to her, her spirit managed to fight off the effects of the boundary despite it being fatal to anyone sure, but I don't see the reason why this would be situational and only focused on PI and nothing else when PI in of itself does dozens upon dozens of things.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yes, but those were in circumstances when she was reacting to a grand outside source, and not specifically against an opponent in combat. Would she still react the same if she was fighting against one individual and not a reality-warping event/entity? I can understand if it's her body adapting to inhospitable circumstances in reality, but this is just telekinesis used upon her by one person, not willed onto the surroundings.

 

[Theglassman12]

You say that like Toon Force in of itself doesn't always become willed into the surroundings like having trains and houses appear out of thin air to harm people in comedic ways, plus PI does a lot of stuff to the target, same with the Boundary, so why would one other ability like telekinesis be any different when the ability in of itself is still trying to affect the person?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

It’s different in that while Cartoon Physics were used in those circumstances to directly affect the user or a victim through talent, the PI in these circumstances were more wide-spread and not directly focusing on Makoto in a 1v1 context. Her adaptations are a result of her reality being hazardous to her and thus she is changed to better fit those conditions. But Slappy’s telekinesis doesn’t affect reality as a whole, not with that specific usage anyway. It’s just her holding her still for a second until she can use explosives to blow her up. Her justification states she adapts to her surroundings. But Slappy isn’t doing anything that would warrant adapting to. She’s not a volcano area, or a space where time is nonexistent, or existence is deleted inside of her. She’s just one fighter holding out her hand to hold her in place. Unless there’s proof Makoto can adapt to something like this in a direct 1v1 context, I’m not buying it and I can see it falling under no-limit fallacy. It’s adaptation, not reactive evolution.

 

[Theglassman12]

Did you forget the part where I said everyone except for a small handful who were stated to be immune to its effects was being affected by the Embryo? Cause I made that clear that everyone was being affected, plus it's still a force that's trying to affect her being in some way shape or form, plus the Boundary trying to affect her and she's able to adapt to it shoots your argument in the foot that it's only something that affects reality and not the person, so again why would Slappy's telekinesis, which btw doesn't last that long and just wears off by the time she has to get her bombs ready, stop her at all times when Makoto's adapted against far worse situations from a higher dimensional force of power?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

It doesn't "wear off". As seen in the lesser toon's example, they don't exactly have to focus to keep it active. They can hold it still for a good few seconds and even then, they're still able to direct them in a different direction by the time it supposedly "wears off". And it doesn't even take that long at all for a toon to grab something out of Hammerspace. If you'll compare these scans, the telekinesis lasts eight seconds longer than it takes for Slappy to pull out her explosives and have them blow up. Even if Makoto were to adapt to this, it's only close to instantaneous, and we don't have an exact timeframe of how long it would take for this to happen. Adding this to the fact that she isn't aware of her own adaptation. But it's very likely that Slappy would get in an attack here rather than not.

I'm feeling some condescension here just because I don't know much about your verse and aside from the adaptation link, you've not given me the scans of something like the Boundary effects happening in action, and yet act surprised when I don't understand how it fully works, and I only have to take your word for it. The same can be said with you making assumptions of my verse because it looks supposedly simple, and yet when I give scans of these abilities in context, they're downplayed.

 

[Theglassman12]

You do know that her being unaware of the Adaptation doesn't really harm Makoto's points right? The fact it just happens without her noticing helps her a lot during a fight as she wouldn't be focused on trying to adapt as her being would just do it for her. Ok, I never said that Slappy wouldn't be able to harm Makoto whatsoever, I said that she'd end up adapting to the telekinesis very quickly once she's exposed to it. Plus the fact she has the Power of Order to cancel out the AP difference makes it easier for her adaptation to kick in as she won't get instantly oneshotted by anything she throws at her that does conventional harm.

I literally have a cosmology blog explaining the ins and outs of the series, and tbh, it gets really annoying when people ask questions or make some claims with the series without actually reading the thing when it explains what is what, especially if its something like what the boundary does among other things, so if I'm coming off as condescending to you I apologize, but this has happened way too many times to me that I question why make the blog in the first place if no one's going to bother reading the thing., but to cut down on what you have to read, just read the Cauldron, Boundary, and Edge sections, as for how fast the effects kick in, Rachel says right here that just being near a Cauldron, a gateway into the Boundary is enough for it to kick in.