Baba is You revision

[DontTalkDT]

How Baba works (for those not familiar with the game)

I would advise to just watch a random bit of the games gameplay.

Here's the text version, though: Baba is basically just a normal non-supernatural being. Its powers aren't really its own powers or equipment. Instead Baba just happens to life in a world where there are Text blocks around. By pushing this Text blocks into short sentences the corresponding changes happen.

Baba uses this fact in clever ways to solve riddles.

Standard Equipment
I don't think "Text and rules regarding their direct environment" should be standard equipment. It's not like Baba is carrying around Text and which Text is specifically available varies greatly depending on the environment.

It's roughly like listing "sticks and stones" as equipment for a human since it can usually find them somewhere close by.

That begs the question what they should be listed as. Given that Optional Equipment includes things that the character "made usage of before for an extended period of time, but does not always have available on their person" I think that fits the Text best. So IMO all Text should be optional equipment, with some just being more common than others.

Concept Manipulation
Seeing as everything else Baba does falls under Law Manipulation, I think it is much more plausible for what is currently listed as Concept Manipulation to also be an application of that. Unless concepts are actually mentioned, but I don't think they are.

Additionally it should be noted that Baba can't just walk up to a Noun and smash it, but can only destroy them in a roundabout fashion.

Range
The profile seems to assume that changing Text generally affects the entire universe. For some Text that might be true, but most of it is usually contained to the level one is in, meaning that the rules are only changed in a limited area, no? So that should be noted.

Abstract Existence
When it says "Can become abstractions like laws or concepts" it which way is that meant? TEXT IS YOU? Because I would argue that becoming Text isn't Abstract Existence Type 1, but what was formerly Abstract Existence Type 3. In other words you just become a physical representation of the laws / a law manipulation device, not the laws themself.

Maximum Potential Key Clarification or Revision
What exactly are the assumptions for Maximum Potential key?

The way I read it it's essentially base Baba, but with all Text (Optional Equipement) available in the area close by. Given the way the page is written that makes the most sense to me.

A different common interpretation I heard is that it is Baba with infinite prep and Text already manipulated to an optimal extent.

It should be clarified what it is and, in my opinion, it should be the former.

The second option would amount to a non-existent composite key, which we don't allow. It would also be a very strange key, that gives the character prep-time (outside of gathering weapons) when the SBA technically doesn't do that.

Not to mention that such keys generally aren't something we do. It would be like making a key of Sayama Mikoto where he destroyed all the concepts necessary to use supernatural powers in advance. In other words it imposes rules on the fighting scenario more than reflects a characters usual power. For something like "Baba uses all the text before the battle to do stuff" the possibility of giving prep time is in matches.

So the concrete change I propose to that key is just reformulating note 2 a bit to clarify that Baba needs to arrange the Text mid battle instead of having moved it in an optimal fashion in advance.

 

[DontTalkDT]

bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

pmub

 

[Imaginym]

I've seen the 'verse, and while I have no problems with the proposed revisions, I can't think of any meaningful way for me to contribute to this thread beyond stating my agreement.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

An agreement is all I can give, yeah.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Actually, I do have a questions.

If we assume that the texts are there due to just what the world is like, can we really say it has Non-physical Interaction instead of saying the words are physical? Aren't the words impossible to push through certain items like rocks?

Also, is there a reason to assume it's type 2 concepts that the laws are instead of type 3, if we assume they are laws and not concepts?

 

[SauceSorcery]

Any object can push the text, including a rock with no properties provided that you can make it move which normally takes shift.

However, text can be turned non-physical through this line: TEXT IS NOT PUSH

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, yes, but that does not make the texts themselves abstract things.

 

[SauceSorcery]

They're not abstract as far as I can tell, just physical representations or at best, a physical manifestation of abstract things.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, the Text blocks are neither non-physical nor abstract. So Non-Physical Interaction should probably be removed as well.

And I would say nothing here is a concept, neither type 2 nor 3.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So... couldn't Baba's enemies just move the texts against it too? That would be a weakness to add.

 

[DontTalkDT]

They absolutely can. I think "Certain rules can be written in such a way as to disable Baba" was supposed to mean that, but we can specify that further when we are already at rewriting the page.

 

[SauceSorcery]

There is a way for Baba to effect non-physical.

Objects with no physical properties can still be moved through SHIFT, teleported through TELE and law haxed through the text, directly or indirectly.

But this isn't the same as actually touching them, unless SHIFT counts as contact.

He can also make the void pushable and physical, if that counts.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It could still count for NPI.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You're right, via SHIFT or PUSH it should work.

 

[SauceSorcery]

An object with SINK can also erase an object that has no physical properties, too.

 

[DontTalkDT]

THREAD IS BUMP

 

[SauceSorcery]

Just as we don't have a separate key for smash brothers characters when allowing them access to all of their optional equipment, I think if this revision were to go through, it's better to remove the second key and just have one key that accounts for all of Baba's 'equipment'.


Then individual fights can restrict certain equipment or something, just like similar characters.

Determining Baba's skill and knowledge at some midpoint in the game to separate two keys would be a bit arbitrary as it is completely unlike separating characters by season.

All of the extra stuff in the second key is built around the idea of the unusual property of allowing Baba to have pre-formed rules, but some of the stuff in the second key isn't even that late in into the game... Law hax resistance is shown very early on, for instance and a puzzle in lake requires you to exploit it.


Even so, most fights will probably end long before Baba creates some kind of extremely intricate mechanism out of multiple laws and he'll probably just win by law haxing the opponent right away, so determining a skill separation between first and second key becomes even less necessary.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Makes sense. So I would be ok with reducing it to one key as well.

 

[Bobsican]

I actually have to agree with this.

Anyways, Saikou The Lewd King should be contacted, he's the one knowledgeable in Baba.

 

[SauceSorcery]

Is he the one that made/edited the Baba is you profile? As far as I can tell, he's not the only one who has a complete knowledge of Baba.

 

[Bobsican]

Yes, he is the one that made Baba's profile.

I already went ahead and contacted him.

 

[SauceSorcery]

Good, I'm curious to know the reasoning behind the second key.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Keys where the peak powers of a character based on preparation abilities aren't that rare, though nearly all of it's skills require some prep so not sure it's justified.

 

[SauceSorcery]

Baba is a really weird case of it. He's a very unique character as a whole...

A lot of his potential can't be reached without prep because why would Baba do anything complicated when simply forming "FOE IS EMPTY" is much faster and probably wins anyway? He would only ever use one-sentence hax and all matches would come down to him law haxing the opponent, or being stopped before he can touch any text.

Some of his hax won't even get used in most cases because he has better options. Even against a law hax resistant foe, he can indirectly kill them with just making everything SINK them on contact.

Even when you give him the option to form something complicated, he will still choose to just basic-hax the opponent into incap or kill because time is of the essence to him.

But if you do give Baba prep, even as much as 3 seconds, he snowballs by forming TEXT IS YOU, then doing whatever he wants with the laws... Baba is so prep-abusive that giving him any makes him explode, much further than what his opponent could usually do with it.

So, a second key becomes an interesting thought experiment at the very least, even if it's strange.

... And that's pretty much the case I see in favour of the second key, as opposed to the opposition...

 

[DontTalkDT]

Keys where the peak powers of a character based on preparation abilities aren't that rare, though nearly all of it's skills require some prep so not sure it's justified.

Baba's keys kinda already are what we would consider "with prep" even in his base key, though.

What we allow as far as prep keys go is stuff like a character getting to prepare weapons they have shown to use beforehand. That is what Baba is allowed in all his keys by the Text being gathered kinda close to him.

However, as far as I know we never make keys were a character gets to fire his weapons before the fight begins, or in this case manipulate the universe in advance. Like, it's one thing to let Thanos assemble the Infinity Gauntlet before a fight and another to let him use it in advance to restructure reality.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Can Baba transport the text with itself? Like, beyond just moving them around, can it take them from one location to another?


Even to be optional equipment Baba would need to be equiped with them, no to just push the ones that are already there around.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Can Baba transport the text with itself? Like, beyond just moving them around, can it take them from one location to another?

I'm not finished with the game. Usually he can't carry it at all. Maybe later in the game with BABA IS LEVEL shenanigans he can do more, but usually he doesn't transport Text between levels at all.

Even to be optional equipment Baba would need to be equiped with them, no to just push the ones that are already there around.

Well, that's a valid point of view and the reason why I didn't make a profile for Baba when I first saw the game. I thought that would make some really cool law manip profile, until I realized that no character really has any supernatural ability or equipment in the game.

Personally I would be kinda ok to go as far as to say Baba gets Text laying around close by as some point of Optional Equipment, just for the sake of making the profile possible. I can also understand if one says that the profile just doesn't work in our context and we should delete it, though.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'd prefer not to just delete it. Just make it clear that texts can't be really carried at all, and that each would need to be pointed out by the OP for them being present.

From what I saw though... making X IS BABA (X being the variable), and moving causes BABA's original body and the possesed thing all move at once (you move sideways, everything that IS BABA moves that way at once), no? That would... put a pretty big limitation on that ability, too.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not quite. X IS BABA would make all X things become BABA.

In order to possess an object you would put X IS YOU.

Then you indeed control both, unless you remove the BABA IS YOU rule in the progress.

But yes, posession isn't easy to use.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

How would Baba even function in a battle? Would he have to find text blocks and push them around? Also in game these things probably wouldn't even affect the opponent.

 

[DontTalkDT]

How would Baba even function in a battle? Would he have to find text blocks and push them around?

Pretty much. Makes it not really the most effective law manipulation.

Also in game these things probably wouldn't even affect the opponent.
Why not? They seem to affect other creatures like Ghost, Keke etc. just fine.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No I mean like to clear certain levels. Most law manipulation doesn't affect opponents. But yeah that's an exaggeration.

 

[SauceSorcery]

Baba's first key is less prep and more "convenience".

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

As far as I understand, just got the game, UNDO and RESTART are actual things Baba can do, too.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Those are game mechanics, in my opinion.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I mean, letting stuff like that be used in the map too kinda helps it's case.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Probably because some rules can apply to the overworld.

Still think it's probably game mechanics.

 

[SauceSorcery]

Unless the game "undertale"s it, it's always a game mechanic.

It has to be acknowledged by the characters themselves, exist to the characters, etc. Undertale being a great example of this with save, load and stats.

This excludes "game induced stupidity" where a character or entity may explain the buttons to you in a tutorial, but never mentions game mechanics anywhere else.

 

[Antvasima]

This is probably fine, as long as other knowledgeable members agree with it.