Ayanokouji vs L, but in Chess

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean.. Most CoTe fans thinks they are 10-B to 10-A because of the anime until Ayanokouji fought Nanase

Kinda funny when we were carried by the elevator feat for a hot minute, but yeah, S4 went insane with that Nanase fight

 

[Moo9n]

I believe i already covered this, though.

Do it tbh, L really should be Supergenius with this kinds of feat, which he is not on his profile

No thanks lol, i'm good, it's like 6 am and i havent sleep yet, I almost finished for my defense thesis slides too, but thanks for the fun discussion anyway

Even granting the stock market feat at its highest interpretation, all you've established is that L possesses extraordinary financial cognition. You haven't demonstrated that this cognition arose specifically from superior Learning Ability rather than intuition, reasoning, or narrative fluff. More importantly, you haven't shown why a single domain-specific feat should scale every subcategory of Learning Ability, nor why that translates into a decisive advantage in chess. You're treating an extraordinary outcome as proof of an extraordinary learning process and then generalizing that process to every cognitive domain. That's an inference stacked on top of another inference

And as others said it's barely a EG feat let alone in the realm of supergenius
basically this is just a poorly conceived attempt to wank L's narrative from a vauge feat with limited if any connection to learning ability in how it was presented

I still got Koji. My issue isn't even with the stock market feat itself, it's with how you're scaling it.
You're treating the 20,000× return as if it automatically proves every cognitive process behind it. That's a non sequitur. The feat establishes the outcome, not the exact mechanism that produced it.
Even if we grant L genuinely achieved those returns through his own intellect, that only proves he achieved an absurd financial result. It doesn't automatically prove supernatural intuition, prediction, mental models, application. Those are separate claims that each require their own evidence.
Your reasoning is essentially:
Impossible returns → impossible understanding → supernatural intuition/pattern recognition → predicts every chess move.
Every arrow there is an inference, not something established by the manga.
Then you bootstrap L's Kira deductions to justify the stock feat, and use the stock feat to justify chess. That's circular. His detective feats certainly support deduction and pattern recognition, but they don't suddenly validate "hyper-accurate financial intuition" or "instant chess prediction."
More importantly, chess isn't won by having one absurd feat in a completely different domain. Chess depends on calculation, board visualization, opening knowledge, positional evaluation, tactical accuracy, endgame technique, and practical experience. You haven't shown why an unexplained stock feat grants superiority in those areas.
So until you establish the actual cognitive mechanism behind the stock feat(gl with that) instead of reverse-engineering it from the result, I don't think it justifies giving L an overwhelming Learning Ability advantage, let alone saying he no-diffs Koji in chess.

And I don't think it comes close to koji
Koji's knowledge had surpassed all the White Room Instructors in their chosen fields by age 11. To a degree that trivialized their own understanding as "superficial" in the words of Suzukake who was the head researcher. These same instructors who were compared to the same level as Olympic coaches and were capable of representing the world stage with their talents. This means that Ayanokouji trivializes people who are at the top of their fields and are "world-class" level intellects in their own specialty, but he does this for ALL subjects not just 1. This vastly surpasses L who neither has any feats or statements of reaching this level of knowledge in even 1 subject, let alone every field of study. Furthermore, this certainly does reach the level beyond just unrealistic as while real world polymaths exist, none have come close to this level of understanding and certainly not across all subjects. Then the fact that Koji did this by age 11 only makes it more impressive.

Then from an LA perspective Koji went from learning to read/write starting at age 3 to then learning university level subjects at age 5 so in that 2 year timeframe he learned more than most people learn through college. So yeah, L doesn't even come remotely close here.

So ye I'm voting koji

And let's move on from LA and discuss foresight etc as that would be more engaging

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This vastly surpasses L who neither has any feats or statements of reaching this level of knowledge in even 1 subject, let alone every field of study.

I will say, while I agree with a majority of the things you said this isn't true. L is at least compared to this in deduction and general investigative stuff, but tbf those aren't relevant here

 

[Moo9n]

I will say, while I agree with a majority of the things you said this isn't true. L is at least compared to this in deduction and general investigative stuff, but tbf those aren't relevant here

I was speaking abt LA but yea
Reasoning debate would be more engaging and produce productive result which make actual impact on the debate and this is directed to SCD part asw instead of the unquantifiable narrative fluff like LA which don't mean shi8 for which we r trying this debate in the first place
Like some 1 bring up logical reasoning and other stuff pls

 

[Moo9n]

Kinda funny when we were carried by the elevator feat for a hot minute, but yeah, S4 went insane with that Nanase fight

TBF koenji boar feat was more and ppl just chain scaled them
But we did have solid supersonic speed feats

 

[Doggo]

I will say, while I agree with a majority of the things you said this isn't true. L is at least compared to this in deduction and general investigative stuff, but tbf those aren't relevant here

Ngl part of my issue with this match is the fact that L's best skill set is not being utilized well lol

I was speaking abt LA but yea
Reasoning debate would be more engaging and produce productive result which make actual impact on the debate and this is directed to SCD part asw instead of the unquantifiable narrative fluff like LA which don't mean shi8 for which we r trying this debate in the first place
Like some 1 bring up logical reasoning and other stuff pls

A SCD debater huh

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I was speaking abt LA but yea

Fair enough then

Ngl part of my issue with this match is the fact that L's best skill set is not being utilized well lol

Yeah, fair enough I guess. Though genuinely I just think these two have completely different levels of intelligence despite both being popular EG's, Kiyo's intelligence is a lot more widely applicable while L's is more specialized, there'd be a disadvantage for someone no matter what kind of matchup was made

 

[BoastJr]

Yeah ! I like IQ debates sometimes because it goes into different categories such as Prediction, Analysis, Pattern Recognition, Logical Thinking, Critical Think, Deduction, Theory and Conclusions etc

Anyways Voting Koji because I wasn't really convinced with L's feat at first or was sure how it related to chess here

I guess Pattern Recognition and Predictions are more suited for that but we really have no clue on it other then it sounding cool here

 

[Vapidhoe]

Like, the feat works for the tier. VSBW doesn't really care if the feat is impossible or not. It just cares if it's narratively portrayed to require superhuman intellect and similar stuff. The problem lies in the moment you try to say these feats somewhat transfer to other situations. How can you even know it? Like, someone can build a time machine. We are not assuming those vague intellectual requirements transfer to other scenarios.

IRL we have people who can go to Harvard at 8 years old. It doesn't mean they can stomp chess masters.

Great point, does L have any chess demonstration in all of death note (novel,books, etc)? I only watch the anime and I'm too lazy to check out his profile again

 

[Doggo]

We never see L play chess.

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't think he does. Anyway I would argue this is a stomp in Koji's favor. The 3 main arguments you could do are: Sheer processing speed (how many moves you can think in one second), Accelerated Development (how quickly you can learn and improve at chess), and chess knowledge (by the book moves, pre-built strategies...)

- Processing speed: L's best feat on the profile is upscaling Beyond Birthday, who can read 376 pages of a book in under 5 minutes. With an average of 200 words per page we have around 250 words each second. In addition he can input information from like 50 different monitors all together. Now, Ayanokouji is accepted to be able to visualize his entire life while he was turning his head. Assuming he was doing it tremendously slowly (10 s) it means that he perceived something like 16 years in 10 seconds. A single second for him would around the same as 50457600 seconds. Ayanokouji also simply upscales Arisu who can keep track of over 400 information simultaneously. I think Koji takes this quite easily.

- Accelerated Development: I don't wanna go too deep into this, but still. If we take the stock market you can argue L has superhuman AD due to learning something beyond peak human knowledge in a short timeframe. Ayano on the other hand surpassed world.level experts in pretty much all academic fields, martial arts and... chess. For simplicity we can say they both grow at superhuman rate, with Ayano being more versatile.

- Chess knowledge: L's featless while Ayano can match and beat world-level experts.

You basically could argue they grow at similar rates but Ayano's brain just work faster, and he starts with more experience than L's. So even if L grows at the same rate as Ayano, the latter would still keep an edge. I don't think it's really a match L can win, like 0 chances. Maybe 1, if Ayano dies from heart attack during the match actually.

-

A fairer match would be putting both of them against the same mystery/crime and see who would solve it quicker. At least L can use what he's actually built for. Chess's just not his field.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Actually, don't think anyone mentioned it but didn't Kiyo also beat a supercomputer in chess in the WR?

 

[Zefra3011]

Actually, don't think anyone mentioned it but didn't Kiyo also beat a supercomputer in chess in the WR?

He made one better move than what some chess machines calculated. You can argue things and *****, but that's what stated.

 

[Doggo]

I don't think he does. Anyway I would argue this is a stomp in Koji's favor. The 3 main arguments you could do are: Sheer processing speed (how many moves you can think in one second), Accelerated Development (how quickly you can learn and improve at chess), and chess knowledge (by the book moves, pre-built strategies...)

- Processing speed: L's best feat on the profile is upscaling Beyond Birthday, who can read 376 pages of a book in under 5 minutes. With an average of 200 words per page we have around 250 words each second. In addition he can input information from like 50 different monitors all together. Now, Ayanokouji is accepted to be able to visualize his entire life while he was turning his head. Assuming he was doing it tremendously slowly (10 s) it means that he perceived something like 16 years in 10 seconds. A single second for him would around the same as 50457600 seconds. Ayanokouji also simply upscales Arisu who can keep track of over 400 information simultaneously. I think Koji takes this quite easily.

- Accelerated Development: I don't wanna go too deep into this, but still. If we take the stock market you can argue L has superhuman AD due to learning something beyond peak human knowledge in a short timeframe. Ayano on the other hand surpassed world.level experts in pretty much all academic fields, martial arts and... chess. For simplicity we can say they both grow at superhuman rate, with Ayano being more versatile.

- Chess knowledge: L's featless while Ayano can match and beat world-level experts.

You basically could argue they grow at similar rates but Ayano's brain just work faster, and he starts with more experience than L's. So even if L grows at the same rate as Ayano, the latter would still keep an edge. I don't think it's really a match L can win, like 0 chances. Maybe 1, if Ayano dies from heart attack during the match actually.

-

A fairer match would be putting both of them against the same mystery/crime and see who would solve it quicker. At least L can use what he's actually built for. Chess's just not his field.

Yeah I think its better to pit them in another game

 

[Zefra3011]

Just make them solve the Rokkenjima massacre, or catch Moriarty or Red John.

 

[NitroWatch]

I don't think he does. Anyway I would argue this is a stomp in Koji's favor. The 3 main arguments you could do are: Sheer processing speed (how many moves you can think in one second), Accelerated Development (how quickly you can learn and improve at chess), and chess knowledge (by the book moves, pre-built strategies...)

- Processing speed: L's best feat on the profile is upscaling Beyond Birthday, who can read 376 pages of a book in under 5 minutes. With an average of 200 words per page we have around 250 words each second. In addition he can input information from like 50 different monitors all together. Now, Ayanokouji is accepted to be able to visualize his entire life while he was turning his head. Assuming he was doing it tremendously slowly (10 s) it means that he perceived something like 16 years in 10 seconds. A single second for him would around the same as 50457600 seconds. Ayanokouji also simply upscales Arisu who can keep track of over 400 information simultaneously. I think Koji takes this quite easily.

- Accelerated Development: I don't wanna go too deep into this, but still. If we take the stock market you can argue L has superhuman AD due to learning something beyond peak human knowledge in a short timeframe. Ayano on the other hand surpassed world.level experts in pretty much all academic fields, martial arts and... chess. For simplicity we can say they both grow at superhuman rate, with Ayano being more versatile.

- Chess knowledge: L's featless while Ayano can match and beat world-level experts.

You basically could argue they grow at similar rates but Ayano's brain just work faster, and he starts with more experience than L's. So even if L grows at the same rate as Ayano, the latter would still keep an edge. I don't think it's really a match L can win, like 0 chances. Maybe 1, if Ayano dies from heart attack during the match actually.

-

A fairer match would be putting both of them against the same mystery/crime and see who would solve it quicker. At least L can use what he's actually built for. Chess's just not his field.

Koji did beat Komugi even though he has no knowledge in Gungi. Plus, L has a week of prep and can utilize parallel process. Seems like more of a decisive win than a stomp

 

[Zefra3011]

Oh, only L has prep time. But still. No one can prove he can AD his way into this, with the same rate the stock feat and such. Not sure what parallel process is tho.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Oh, only L has prep time. But still. No one can prove he can AD his way into this, with the same rate the stock feat and such. Not sure what parallel process is tho.

Parallel process would be you capable of multi tasking in different stuff simultaneously and independently

Like, his brain is solving multiple crimes at the same time prior to meeting Kira

 

[NitroWatch]

Paralel process would be you capable of multi tasking in different stuff

Like, his brain is solving multiple crimes at the same time prior to meeting Kira

this plus Near did something more impressive when he searched with all those monitors to find mikami

 

[Doggo]

Just make them solve the Rokkenjima massacre, or catch Moriarty or Red John.

Moriaty is fairer, the other two uhhh....might not go well with them

 

[Zefra3011]

Parallel process would be you capable of multi tasking in different stuff simultaneously and independently

Like, his brain is solving multiple crimes at the same time prior to meeting Kira

I think it's still very vague. Chatgpt can process idk how many ***** but it still sucks in many aspects of thinking. The problem is still proving L's AD to be a viable way in this match. We really cannot.

 

[NitroWatch]

I think it's still very vague. Chatgpt can process idk how many ***** but it still sucks in many aspects of thinking. The problem is still proving L's AD to be a viable way in this match. We really cannot.

I think AI and human thinking are pretty different that it allows AI to mistakes that humans cant, though im not sure how that’s vague.

 

[Zefra3011]

I think AI and human thinking are pretty different that it allows AI to mistakes that humans cant, though im not sure how that’s vague.

I meant that just process a lot of stuff doesn't mean much alone. At least if your point was that he could use the prep time efficinetly to learn also because he has parallel processing. If the argument was he can use it mid-match then it's pointless when Ayano, based on the profiles, turbo stomp L in that.

 

[NitroWatch]

I meant that just process a lot of stuff doesn't mean much alone. At least if your point was that he could use the prep time efficinetly to learn also because he has parallel processing. If the argument was he can use it mid-match then it's pointless when Ayano, based on the profiles, turbo stomp L in that.

Oh ok, I do agree that L can’t use parallel process midmatch, it’s just his parrellel proccess is already EG level, he can learn a ton about Chess and maybe surpass Koji’s level during his prep. I also found this statement of L’s iq increasing from BB case to Kira case though idk if this can be used as AD

L's ability in 2002 was the equivalent of five ordinary investigative bureaus, and seven intelligence agencies (and by the time he faced ff against Kira, those numbers had leapt upward several more notches)

 

[Zefra3011]

he can learn a ton about Chess and maybe surpass Koji’s level during his prep.

He can, but will he? There's a big difference. Any character "can", but they need to do it. You would need to present an argument that proves this:

"L can use Accelerated Development on things he doesn't directly have feats about, and need an at least level of growth to surpass world-league despite starting from 0, within one week"

I don't think the stock market and the helicopter feats are enough, given we have absolutely no idea how he achieve both.

I also found this statement of L’s iq increasing from BB case to Kira case though idk if this can be used as AD

He gets better at solving cases, which is what he does daily. Not that great. Like, it would be weird if he wasn't getting better.

 

[NitroWatch]

I don't think the stock market and the helicopter feats are enough, given we have absolutely no idea how he achieve both.

For the helicopter, L already stated that Light can learn how to fly one with just intuition, suggesting he did the same. Idk about stock

 

[Zefra3011]

For the helicopter, L already stated that Light can learn how to fly one with just intuition, suggesting he did the same. Idk about stock

yeah, but "Intuition" is like saying "use your brain". Intuition is what our brain builds based on experienced. L basically said "you can learn too if you think about it" Also, intuition sometimes might even be guesswork, which would lead the feat to have luck aspects. Doesn't really help.

 

[NitroWatch]

yeah, but "Intuition" is like saying "use your brain". Intuition is what our brain builds based on experienced. L basically said "you can learn too if you think about it" Also, intuition sometimes might even be guesswork, which would lead the feat to have luck aspects. Doesn't really help.

I mean, I’m not sure how this dimishes the feat, like yes he has to use his brain, L isn’t a god. The impressive thing is that L can pilot a pretty complex machine without needing any sort of prior experience and just with gut feeling

 

[Zefra3011]

I mean, I’m not sure how this dimishes the feat, like yes he has to use his brain, L isn’t a god. The impressive thing is that L can pilot a pretty complex machine without needing any sort of prior experience and just with gut feeling

My point, since the starts, are not saying that L's feats are to be thrown out the window. They just do not prove this:

"L can use Accelerated Development on things he doesn't directly have feats about, and need an at least level of growth to surpass world-league despite starting from 0, within one week"

I.e. it's a stomp in koji's favor.

 

[Scrostinger]

Ayanokouji kinda negs FRA

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

At best, all we know is that L is insanely good at economics.

Technically we don't even know this. My whole point is that this can't be done via economics, so we don't know that L did this via economics.

Saying he did this via economics means we have to assume his economics is beyond the entire framework of our understanding and he can functionally do what appears impossible to us with that superior knowledge. However, given that this is a crazy huge head canon with 0 actual evidence it's obv unusable to say this.

 

[NitroWatch]

My point, since the starts, are not saying that L's feats are to be thrown out the window. They just do not prove this:

I.e. it's a stomp in koji's favor.

For this, I’ll just spitball and say that L instantly became a top tier detective and solved a crime with no clues.
Scan

 

[NitroWatch]

Ayanokouji kinda negs FRA

I believe that’s grace

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I think it's still very vague. Chatgpt can process idk how many ***** but it still sucks in many aspects of thinking. The problem is still proving L's AD to be a viable way in this match. We really cannot.

L doesn't have AD though??? Unless I'm blind looking at his profile.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I believe that’s grace

1 more vote is required, it will be grace if you vote tho

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Wait no, it's actually grace, i thought we were at 6 with scrostinger NVM lol

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The OP added L's loss but not Koji's win?

Lemme fix that

 

[NitroWatch]

The OP added L's loss but not Koji's win?

Lemme fix that

Lol I was at work and added L’s loss during break. Thanks for adding it tho