Ayanokouji Full Strength Contextualized

[Buzzflightyear]

That's character stuff, my guy. That is normal. He's basically in denial.

What we want is to analyze when he narrates fight stuff and look specifically for things that contradict him (and more interestingly for me, the things where he is not contradicted).

That's where the confusion lies. He is reliable the entire time when you review the context of every character that has been compared.

People confuse him withholding his identity from other students in general and think he keeps this attitude in combat or physical activities when he is stating the opposite.

Examples:

• Raced Manabu Horikita with full speed after making a bet with him to go all out, which he then states this being the first time he ran seriously in his life, and he tied with Manabu until someone fell in his lane but said he could go faster even though someone fell in his lane making him lose the race. (2nd version)(anime version)
• Ayanokouji punched Albert in the abdomen with his full strength stating he couldn't hold back not knowing the full extent of his abilites, and said he only dealt "shallow" damage. (Did the same thing to Tsukishiro)

This shows he repeats a trend of "going all out" against opponents he doesn't know the full extent of and then then deduces the limits of what's effective in that situation, he a very analytical dude who doesn't make mistakes that's why I listen to everything he says in contextualize it because it may lead to a Bigger overall point.

The "unreliable" stuff only come in from the readers who want him to be stronger than he actually is, so they have to crate the narrative of how strong he is, when he is telling us time and time again. Which I why I made the full list of everything involving his combat, and other characters he was compared to physically

 

[Doggo]

I just want to point out that nothing about this is a downgrade for Ayanokoji aside from the easily debunkable human level stuff.

Because if we accept the idea of Ayanokojo not being far ahead of other characters, then all it does is upgrade them to his level.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

New summary with updated arguments:

-Manabu one shotting Ayanokoji is not reliable because we later see Nagumo, who is equal to him gets one shotted by Ayanokoji

This right here is exactly what I mean they are stated equally in terms of their status as students both being student council presidents, not fighters. manabu has a 5th dan in karate and 4th dan in Judo, while Nagumo is great swimmer. Both are athletic but one is a fighter and the other isn't. There are not equal fighter, they are equal students.

-Albert being above Ayanokoji is not reliable when that same Albert is weaker than Hosen. Albert needed a group ambush to best Hosen (note: Koji did not narrate this scene). Same Hosen cannot escape the grip of Ayanokoji's injured hand

• Albert and Housen are equals in "pure strength".
• Albert said Housen has the same AP as Ayanokouji and said Housen is also a better fighter after catching House 's fist and remembering the fight with ayanokouji. (he can't be weaker is he easily catches his fist)

-Ryuen scaling to Ayanokoji is not reliable when other characters treat Manabu and Nagumo to be their own league. This puts them above Ryuen, and i already mentioned Koji one shotting Nagumo

Answered thus

-Koji stating Ichika is physically weaker than Ryuen's gang is contradicted by Suzune's own monolouge which showed a weakened Ichika blitzing and mandhandling Suzune and Ibuki in a 2v1. Ibuki is one of Ryuen's strongest members and Suzune is confident in facing Sudo who is relative to Ryuen

• Amasawa has better fighting ability than Ryuuen and Sudo but they are physically stronger than her(from book).

 

[Buzzflightyear]

I just want to point out that nothing about this is a downgrade for Ayanokoji aside from the easily debunkable human level stuff.

The verse is definitely human level

Because if we accept the idea of Ayanokojo not being far ahead of other characters, then all it does is upgrade them to his level.

It's not about upgrading or downgrading. The verse just simply is not scaled correctly and hundreds of scans I listed add context to why I feel that way.

I added every version of the scans possible and they all say the same things. I'm not sure here the confusion is. They all say the exact same things

I said this from the beginning and you guys still insulted me and argued for days. I was never here to upgrade or downgrade anyone, I'm only here to clean up the scaling chain and verse narrative

 

[UnstoppableObject]

The verse is definitely human level


I said this from the beginning and you guys still insulted me and argued for days. I was never here to upgrade or downgrade anyone, I'm only here to clean up the scaling chain and verse narrative

I feel like this will actually result in a major durability downgrade, given the possibility that he's comparable to other characters. Other than that it probably remains the same (as far as I can see).

I don't mean to start anything here again, but I personally think that those 49.3 kJ need to be replaced by a more reliable feat anyways, so I don't think the values contradict much here.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

I feel like this will actually result in a major durability downgrade, given the possibility that he's comparable to other characters. Other than that it probably remains the same (as far as I can see).

It definitely will be a downgrade, but not a tier level downgrade, his profile will just have to be better written, I already have the fixed version on my blog post but I just need permission to edit.

I don't mean to start anything here again, but those 49.3 kJ need to be replaced by a more reliable feat, so I don't think the values contradict much here.

I honestly don't view that feat as canon because i don't remember it happening in the LN. I also was confused when it was being viewed as more valid than the LN scans I provided

 

[UnstoppableObject]

I honestly don't view that feat as canon because i don't remember it happening in the LN. I also was confused when it was being viewed as more valid than the LN scans I provided

It's here along with the calculation, if you want to look at it.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Nah, that doesn't sit well with me. Either he's reliable or unreliable.

Otherwise, the only conclusion for me is the entire verse is simply inconsistent for the sake of the plot.

He's extremely reliable overall, we use a lot of his statements to scale the verse as he is by far, the most analytical fighter. While not the only narrator, he has the most screentime as the narrator and is the protagonist of the story.

For the most part, the entire time when he is delivering "plot deception" (false information to the leader) is when he is wanting to keep his own strength hidden (or the extent of the 'White Room' which is the place where he trained), i.e., when he tries to basically underrate himself in the eyes of the reader. Plot deception is simply used as a device to create an element of mystery and is far from only amounting to inconsistencies.

Examples include him saying that he would get oneshot by characters so much weaker than him that canonically get oneshot by characters whom he himself takes on in a fight without any difficulty, and due to that, there's a massive difference between him and others. The OP uses exactly these kinds of statement to prove his point.

Of course, as it is not possible to read the novels instantly, I will mention that the novels spread in three arcs (Year 1, 2 and 3) having its specific volumes. This is just a rough estimate of the plot deception usage:
Year 1 Volume 1 to Year 1 Volume 3 -> Complete levels of plot deception where he doesn't even mention him being different than others.
Year 1 Volume 3 to Year 1 Volume 7.5 -> Levels of plot deception where he does make it apparent that he's different compared to others at most.
Year 1 Volume 7.5 to Year 1 Volume 9 -> Levels of plot deception where he starts to make it clear that he's different compared to others at most.
Year 1 Volume 9 onwards -> Levels of plot deception where he now even begins to explain the sources of his differences compared to others at most, but sometimes still overrates other characters out of proportion.

Year 1 Volume 9 afterwards and basically for the entire Year 2 and not even Year 3, Kiyotaka is MOSTLY a reliable narrator for his own abilities. It is, however, also easy to discard the specific statements as false because they get blatantly inconsistent with what actually happens next, or with what he says himself. So, it's not really simply inconsistencies in the verse, the verse does aim to make itself consistent even with the existence of the unreliable narration in the past with time.

Year 2 onwards, his plot deception is mainly made obvious to the reader with more revelations in the story.
A lot of what OP has said would have been true some years before, at least the Albert thing, which was proven otherwise with a very recent revelation in the story by other characters, revealing the truth after some years of the original fight which was like more than 10 volumes and a complete arc before.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

At this point, I think:
1: We should slow down with the replies and back and forth.
2: Gather feats displaying Ayanokouji's superiority, and start from there. Cause like, even if we have "unreliable statements," we need feats to contradict them.
EDIT: 3: and maybe start sending scans for the arguments.

Agreed

 

[Buzzflightyear]

Agreed

Everything we need is in my OP Post I even separated the feats and statements by category and went from strongest to weakest. I did all this days ago when I first tried to conclude the thread

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Everything we need is in my OP Post I even separated the feats and statements by category and went from strongest to weakest. I did all this days ago when I first tried to conclude the thread

I am waiting for the supporters to show which ones of those were contradicted.

 

[Zefra3011]

Can I ask @Buzzflightyear which are the most relevant statements or whatever that need a contradiction? The Op has like tens of feats and statements, and most are there just because, it looks more like a "respect thread" with tens of characters than anything, no offense. If you point out exactly which of them prove that someone scales to Ayanokouji, then I can argue better. Ap, Speed, and Ls. Thanks.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

Can I ask @Buzzflightyear which are the most relevant statements or whatever that need a contradiction?

I wasn't the person who said Ayanokouji is contradicting himself. I'm the person who believes everything he says because of how smart, Analytical and detailed he is with his analysis of people. Wouldn't make sense for somebody to go that deep into something just for people to say "nah he doesn't mean it". Zetsu, rogger and doggo are the ones who said his statements contradicts others.

The Op has like tens of feats and statements, and most are there just because, it looks more like a "respect thread" with tens of characters than anything, no offense.

This is how I know my OP post was ignored, because y'all never tried to understand the context and was only here to argue. That's exactly what my thread is made for, I listed every single feat and it's in order to prove my point that these characters all mostly compare to each other, so its impossible for that be offensive when it actually validates the reason I did it

If you point out exactly which of them prove that someone scales to Ayanokouji, then I can argue better. Ap, Speed, and Ls. Thanks.

Every statement that directly compares a character to him

 

[Zefra3011]

I wasn't the person who said Ayanokouji is contradicting himself. I'm the person who believes everything he says because of how smart, Analytical and detailed he is with his analysis of people. Wouldn't make sense for somebody to go that deep into something just for people to say "nah he doesn't mean it". Zetsu, rogger and doggo are the ones who said his statements contradicts others.

This is how I know my OP post was ignored, because y'all never tried to understand the context and was only here to argue. That's exactly what my thread is and it's in order to prove that, so its impossible for that be offensive when it validates it.

Every statement that directly compares a character to him

I'll rephrase. Can you please list all the characters you think scale to Ayanokouji and why, Ap-Speed-Ls only? It's not ignoring, I'm just asking you if you can light up those specific things since the Op is long and doesn't only talk about those. Things like "Ayanokouji saying Horikita can one-shot him". It would be very appreciated.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

I'll rephrase. Can you please list all the characters you think scale to Ayanokouji and why, Ap-Speed-Ls only?

Attack Potency:
God: Tsukishiro = Shiba > Albert > Ayanokouji = Koenji = Manabu = Housen (unknown: Takuya, likely atleast ANHS Ayanokouji)

• Ayanokouji's analysis of Shiba punch made him think he had comparable AP to Shiba, then corrected himself and said Shiba hits harder. , (2nd version) , (3rd version book)
• Albert hit Ayanokouji and he said damage would accumulate after letting it happen to gauge his striking power, which means Albert has higher AP and Durability than Ayanokouji, but lost due to not having the experience. (Ayanokouji never said this about anyone else who but him and this is where his evasive style comes from). He didn't use an evasive style against Ryuuen because he can't hurt him as much as Albert can. Albert is superior than Ryuuen by Ayanokouji and Hosens own words
• Albert said Housen has the same AP as Ayanokouji after catching his fist and remembering the fight with ayanokouji.
• Ayanokouji punched Albert in the abdomen with his full strength stating he couldn't hold back not knowing the full extent of his abilites, and said he only dealt "shallow" damage. (Did the same thing to Tsukishiro)
• Ayanokouji says he cant break open the door completely but can "possibly" make a hole. (Since Koji is now wall level this is just more justification) Y1V4.5 page 37
• Ayanokouji describes the punch he gave Ryuuen as a vicious right. Y1V7 page 176
• Ayanokouji Put all his strength into punch and Tsukishiro calls it "absolutely magnificent".

Lifting Strength

God: 16 year old White Room Ayanokouji > Current Ayanokouji = Koenji = Tsukishiro = Shiba = Albert = Housen = Takuya = Sudo (possibly Shiro)

High: > Manabu > Nagumo > Ryuuen = Kito > Ichizaki > Amasawa >

Mid: Kiryuin > Nanase > Ibuki ≥ Horikita = Kushida

• Ayanokouji says his "physical strength" had weakened since he left the white room since he wasn't training.
• Ayanokouji had a stalemate in Tug Of War with Koenji.
• Horikita and Kushida notice now muscular Ayanokouji is and says he is more fit than Sudou. (manga version)
• Purposely scored 60.6 after hearing thats average, and said he someone get up to 100kg with the right training. (manga version) (anime version)
• Ayanokouji talks to Sudo about his real strength and how his stamina is leaving (manga version)
• Ayanokouji catches Albert fist and feels pain without even taking a direct blow Y1V7 page 169 - (anime version)
• Housen stabs Ayanokouji in the palm and he halts his hand with brute strength Y2V1 pages 299-309. (manga version)
• Housen says Ayanokouji calmly stopped his fist and didnt be in pain being stabbed.
• Ayanokouji restrained by Albert and Hiyori, mentions how strong Albert is.
• Sudo and Katsuragi cant compare to Albert physique and genetics, and states that foreigners are just made different than Japanese men. Also compares them by using pro baseball players builds.
• Ayanokouji physique considered more exceptional than Sudo who has athleticism and a honed body.
• Housen has more raw strength than Amasawa.
• Albert and Housen are equals in "pure strength"

Speed (Reaction) God: Ayanokouji and Nanase

• Tsukishiro says Ayanokouji has abnormal reaction time.
• Ayanokouji dodges projectile orange juice from Ryuuen to prove he has abnormal reactions.
• Ayanokouji stated Nanase has abnormal kinetic vision. I dont have the scan but the ability is already on her profile I'll find it if I can.
• Ayanokouji was nearly blitzed by Nanase after she switched personalities and had to use what he calls "emergency evasive action" which means he was being serious.

Speed (Travel)

God: White Room Ayanokouji > Current Ayanokouji ≥ Koenji = Manabu = Albert = Takuya = Amasawa > Tsukishiro > Shiba (possibly Shiro)

• Raced Manabu Horikita with full speed after making a bet with him to go all out, which he then states this being the first time he ran seriously in his life, and he tied with Manabu until someone fell in his lane but said he could go faster even though someone fell in his lane making him lose the race. (2nd version)(anime version)
• Albert is an extremely fast runner. But he lacks stamina.
• Koenji runs so fast he could put sprinters to shame.
• Koenji runs so fast his legs are practically a blur.
• Koenji Dodged 3 athletic seniors who attempted to grab him in 1 stride.

 

[Zefra3011]

• Ayanokouji's analysis of Shiba punch made him think he had comparable AP to Shiba, then corrected himself and said Shiba hits harder. , (2nd version) , (3rd version book)

Official Translation Scan. The problem here is that Ayanokouji was extremely tired out. It's Y2V4, the island exam, it's his stamina justification:

Stamina: At Least Superhuman (Is able to remain active for 14 days non-stop of traveling with the island being stated that the terrain of the island was able to exhaust even those most athletic students in Japan in a few minutes while dehydrated, tired and hungry while still being able to fight without getting hit once even against 2 people on his level with knowledge of all of his achievements and preparation to take him down under a scorching hot sun

So I believe nothing can confirm that the statement was referring to "good conditions Ayanokouji".

• Albert hit Ayanokouji and he said damage would accumulate after letting it happen to gauge his striking power, which means Albert has higher AP and Durability than Ayanokouji, but lost due to not having the experience.

I can't argue against it, but apparently this statement doesn't happen in the Official translation; someone else will argue this tho.

• Albert said Housen has the same AP as Ayanokouji after catching his fist and remembering the fight with ayanokouji.

Ayanokouji won against Housen in a context of strength, with his hand pierced by a knife. Unlikely they have the same strength.

• Ayanokouji punched Albert in the abdomen with his full strength stating he couldn't hold back not knowing the full extent of his abilites, and said he only dealt "shallow" damage. (Did the same thing to Tsukishiro)

For Albert, the same as above, someone who's more familiar with the novel will argue it. Check my first reply for Tsukishiro; Ayanokouji was weakened.

• Ayanokouji had a stalemate in Tug Of War with Koenji.

Koenji scales to Ayanokouji in LS; this is fine.

• Housen stabs Ayanokouji in the palm and he halts his hand with brute strength Y2V1 pages 299-309. (manga version)
• Housen says Ayanokouji calmly stopped his fist and didnt be in pain being stabbed.

I mean, Ayanokouji is superior to Housen, then.

• Ayanokouji was nearly blitzed by Nanase after she switched personalities and had to use what he calls "emergency evasive action" which means he was being serious.

In the scan, Ayanokouji says he just doesn't have the luxury to calmly analyze the situation like he could before. From "emergency evasive action" to "was nearly blitzed" is a leap of logic. Nanase even failed to hit Ayanokouji just once, even with a consecutive combo.

• Raced Manabu Horikita with full speed after making a bet with him to go all out, which he then states this being the first time he ran seriously in his life, and he tied with Manabu until someone fell in his lane but said he could go faster even though someone fell in his lane making him lose the race. (2nd version)(anime version)

As you pointed out, he said he could go even faster, so... eh... Also, "seriously" means you put in some effort, not necessarily that you reach your maximum. But even if he meant 100%, then it's just contradicted shortly after.

Also, as sent above, Ayanokouji blitzed characters that should be comparable, if not better than these.
-
The other links were just a list of feats with no relevance to Ayanokouji, so I ignored them. That said, by feats, Koenji in LS, for me, is fine. I'll leave Albert to others. But I believe these arguments do not suffice to disprove Ayanokouji's superiority over the verse.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I am waiting for the supporters to show which ones of those were contradicted.

I would rather verify those scans first because it was Huntsman who made that claim

I'm not really sure if his claim is true either.
I think it would benefit both sides by clearing things up

I made a prior post in this thread about this but I'll go through it here.

In short, OP uses scans from a variety of different sources to make his claims. While some are from the Official Translations, many are from different Fan Translations. My original point regarding this was that it appeared that he was jumping between sources looking for the TL that "best fits" his interpretation instead of just interpreting the official source directly.

Here are examples of how his arguments fall apart when using the Official Translations in place of Fan Translations where he used them. All the Official TLs I am including are from the Seven Seas Official Publication of COTE and not Machine/Fan Translations.

Albert > Koji in AP, the Fan TL mentions "damage accumulating" if Koji takes hits from Albert. In the OTL he says nothing about him taking damage. Additionally, Koji saying "That hurts" should not be considered evidence of Albert's superior AP because we also establish that Albert is relative to Housen in LS and Housen is superior in AP. Despite that Housen stabbing Koji with a knife didn't get a similar reaction.

I can't argue against it, but apparently this statement doesn't happen in the Official translation; someone else will argue this tho.

Fan TL
Official TL

Tsukishiro/Shiba > Koji in AP, the fan TLs imply that Shiba's attack would have one-shot Koji and is stronger than him while the OTL shows Koji saying that Koji was "as strong" as his and left him exposed to Tsukishiro's follow up (which implies it's NOT a one-shot either)
Fan TL 1
Fan TL 2
Official TL

Koji's assessment of Tsukishiro, in the Fan TL it's implied that Tsukishiro has equal stats to Koji, however in the OTL Koji is simply saying he shouldn't underestimate him. He then proceeds to immediately overwhelm Tsukishiro in the fight.
Fan TL
Official TL

Koji and Kouenji Tug of War, this Fan TL is mostly similar to the official but this shows that Koji could have won had he decided to compete seriously.
Fan TL
Official TL

Ayanokouji stops the knife, the official TL makes it very clear that Housen is NOT equal to Koji in strength given that even with a knife impaling his hand he could completely restrict Housen from moving with that hand.
Fan TL
Official TL

Albert = Housen in AP and Lifting Strength, this makes it clear that Housen and Albert are similar in LS but NOT in a real fight.
Fan TL
Official TL

Non-WR Student's can beat WR Students, the OTL makes this clear that Koji is saying that the kind of people at ANHS would never be found in the WR (e.g. their personalities and eccentricities)
Fan TL
Official TL

In the scan, Ayanokouji says he just doesn't have the luxury to calmly analyze the situation like he could before. From "emergency evasive action" to "was nearly blitzed" is a leap of logic. Nanase even failed to hit Ayanokouji just once, even with a consecutive combo.

Ayanokouji then proceeds to continue calmly analyzing the situation while dodging Nanase lol, so much for her blitzing him.
Fan TL
Official TL


The following are the OP using the OTL but clearly misinterpreting it or choosing to omit information that disproves his claims.

Albert Restrains Koji, it's clear Ayanokouji is not trying to escape and allows himself to be grabbed. This is not evidence of Albert overpowering him.

Ayanokouji races Manabu, Koji clearly isn't running full speed because he decides to go faster partway through the race.

As you pointed out, he said he could go even faster, so... eh... Also, "seriously" means you put in some effort, not necessarily that you reach your maximum. But even if he meant 100%, then it's just contradicted shortly after. Also, as sent above, Ayanokouji blitzed characters that should be comparable, if not better than these.

Housen > Ichika in AP, this comes from a physical copy of the LN so that isn't an issue but OP is using Nanase's statements about herself to make a claim about Ichika.
More context of the scan

As a final point I want to circle back to something Doggo said but got totally ignored by OP.

Except lots of contradictions

Miyabi, who is equal to Manabu, who could supposedly one-shot Koji, gets one-shot by a barely serious Koji

If we accept this proposal, the scaling chain would be:

Manabu>Koji>Miyabi=Manabu

See the issue? Same with the Albert and Hosen point:

Albert=Hosen>Koji (broken stabbed non dominant hand)>Hosen (dominant hand)>Albert

We also know Manabu is above everyone else during year 1, and rivalled only by Miyabi. Hosen is the only student stated to be too much for Manabu in Y2. So we end with a very silly scaling chain:

Koji (his injured hand, non-dominant, was able to overpower Hosen and had him terrified)>Hosen (Needed to be ambushed by Ryuen's gang to lose, including Albert, and stated to be above Manabu)>Manabu (could "oneshot" Koji. Also above everyone during Year 1)=Miyabi (Repeatedly stated to be Manabu's equal is every way)>Albert ("stronger" than Koji)>Koji=Ryuen (his blow was "heavy")>Miyabi (got oneshotted by Koji)=Manabu (equal to Miyabi. Above everyone in year 1, including Ryuen)>Ryuen

If we accept this new scaling chain from OP, then the existing feats will create a circular scaling chain in multiple categories. This just further emphasizes how the proposed changes do not accurately refect the verse.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

As I figured. Most of the translations aren't widely different and my scaling chain is consistent with what I read in those scans and the verse doesn't have a sole person that stands above it physically to where Ayanokouji one shots everyone. The only difference comes in with,

1.) Martial arts training
2.) Brawling experience
3.) Physical genetics

Also. How do we know what if official and what is fan translated? What is the source to the official translations? This will help for future threads.

The part where people get confused is when they're comparing:

1.) Physical abilities to physical strength
2.) Overall physical abilities (mobility, athleticism) to Overall abilities as a student which includes(intelligence, manipulation etc)

Being equal or superior in lifting strength does not equal being superior as a fighter. Just as much as being inferior in physical strength doesn't mean they are inferior as a fighter.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

As I figured. Most of the translations aren't widely different

This isn't the case. Several of the translations you provided have changes from the OTLs which directly impact your scaling chain which I mention in my above response.

For example:

the fan TLs imply that Shiba's attack would have one-shot Koji and is stronger than him while the OTL shows Koji saying that Koji was "as strong" as his and left him exposed to Tsukishiro's follow up (which implies it's NOT a one-shot either)

While your scans show similar events (this is to be expected because they are both translated from the same source) the wording changes show that several of your arguments were incorrect.

How do we know what if official and what is fan translated? What is the source to the official translations? This will help for future threads.

The Official Translation comes from the Official Seven Seas Licensed Publication. They have the rights to publish Classroom of the Elite in English. You will see this in the beginning pages of the volume for the Seven Seas versions.


At this point I have presented what Lephyr had asked for so I'll hold off on responding again until he replies. This thread is already cluttered.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I made a prior post in this thread about this but I'll go through it here.

In short, OP uses scans from a variety of different sources to make his claims. While some are from the Official Translations, many are from different Fan Translations. My original point regarding this was that it appeared that he was jumping between sources looking for the TL that "best fits" his interpretation instead of just interpreting the official source directly.

Here are examples of how his arguments fall apart when using the Official Translations in place of Fan Translations where he used them. All the Official TLs I am including are from the Seven Seas Official Publication of COTE and not Machine/Fan Translations.

Albert > Koji in AP, the Fan TL mentions "damage accumulating" if Koji takes hits from Albert. In the OTL he says nothing about him taking damage. Additionally, Koji saying "That hurts" should not be considered evidence of Albert's superior AP because we also establish that Albert is relative to Housen in LS and Housen is superior in AP. Despite that Housen stabbing Koji with a knife didn't get a similar reaction.

Fan TL
Official TL

Tsukishiro/Shiba > Koji in AP, the fan TLs imply that Shiba's attack would have one-shot Koji and is stronger than him while the OTL shows Koji saying that Koji was "as strong" as his and left him exposed to Tsukishiro's follow up (which implies it's NOT a one-shot either)
Fan TL 1
Fan TL 2
Official TL

Koji's assessment of Tsukishiro, in the Fan TL it's implied that Tsukishiro has equal stats to Koji, however in the OTL Koji is simply saying he shouldn't underestimate him. He then proceeds to immediately overwhelm Tsukishiro in the fight.
Fan TL
Official TL

Koji and Kouenji Tug of War, this Fan TL is mostly similar to the official but this shows that Koji could have won had he decided to compete seriously.
Fan TL
Official TL

Ayanokouji stops the knife, the official TL makes it very clear that Housen is NOT equal to Koji in strength given that even with a knife impaling his hand he could completely restrict Housen from moving with that hand.
Fan TL
Official TL

Albert = Housen in AP and Lifting Strength, this makes it clear that Housen and Albert are similar in LS but NOT in a real fight.
Fan TL
Official TL

Non-WR Student's can beat WR Students, the OTL makes this clear that Koji is saying that the kind of people at ANHS would never be found in the WR (e.g. their personalities and eccentricities)
Fan TL
Official TL

Ayanokouji then proceeds to continue calmly analyzing the situation while dodging Nanase lol, so much for her blitzing him.
Fan TL
Official TL


The following are the OP using the OTL but clearly misinterpreting it or choosing to omit information that disproves his claims.

Albert Restrains Koji, it's clear Ayanokouji is not trying to escape and allows himself to be grabbed. This is not evidence of Albert overpowering him.

Ayanokouji races Manabu, Koji clearly isn't running full speed because he decides to go faster partway through the race.


Housen > Ichika in AP, this comes from a physical copy of the LN so that isn't an issue but OP is using Nanase's statements about herself to make a claim about Ichika.
More context of the scan

As a final point I want to circle back to something Doggo said but got totally ignored by OP.


If we accept this new scaling chain from OP, then the existing feats will create a circular scaling chain in multiple categories. This just further emphasizes how the proposed changes do not accurately refect the verse.

Yeah, after reading through these, I am more on the supporters side here.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Albert > Koji in AP, the Fan TL mentions "damage accumulating" if Koji takes hits from Albert. In the OTL he says nothing about him taking damage. Additionally, Koji saying "That hurts" should not be considered evidence of Albert's superior AP because we also establish that Albert is relative to Housen in LS and Housen is superior in AP. Despite that Housen stabbing Koji with a knife didn't get a similar reaction.

Not sure if this is worth mentioning but when Hosen stabbed Kiyo with the knife, it was stated that Hosen had actually tried to pull himself off of Kiyo's grip and couldn't, mind you he was huffing so he tried pretty damn hard to do this yet ultimately couldn't shake Kiyo's grip who was injured and wasn't visibly exerting a high amount of effort. So with that in mind, it would make the Albert thing even weirder when you consider that

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Anyways yeah I disagree, while I can't blame the OP for coming to the conclusion they did due to how unreliable of a narrator Kiyo can be sometimes (especially in Y1), when you compare the feats the disparity between the two becomes more obvious. Also comparing others feats (like Nanase with her "boku" state), Ichika, Yagami, etc

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Not sure if this is worth mentioning but when Hosen stabbed Kiyo with the knife, it was stated that Hosen had actually tried to pull himself off of Kiyo's grip and couldn't, mind you he was huffing so he tried pretty damn hard to do this yet ultimately couldn't shake Kiyo's grip who was injured and wasn't visibly exerting a high amount of effort. So with that in mind, it would make the Albert thing even weirder when you consider that

This is correct. I had mentioned that in more detail in earlier posts as well, but I probably should have mentioned it again in detail in my above post.

Yeah, after reading through these, I am more on the supporters side here.

I think that since OP's arguments rely on the Fan TLs to support his revised scaling chain and his argument that Ayanokouji isn't at the top of the verse in physical stats this has undermined that claim. Are you alright with rejecting the changes proposed for this CRT since it looks like the changes that OP has proposed have all been sufficiently disproved. Or do you think there’s still something that still needs addressing?

 

[Doggo]

Not sure if this is worth mentioning but when Hosen stabbed Kiyo with the knife, it was stated that Hosen had actually tried to pull himself off of Kiyo's grip and couldn't, mind you he was huffing so he tried pretty damn hard to do this yet ultimately couldn't shake Kiyo's grip who was injured and wasn't visibly exerting a high amount of effort. So with that in mind, it would make the Albert thing even weirder when you consider that

I mentioned this in the scaling chain:

Except lots of contradictions

Miyabi, who is equal to Manabu, who could supposedly one-shot Koji, gets one-shot by a barely serious Koji

If we accept this proposal, the scaling chain would be:

Manabu>Koji>Miyabi=Manabu

See the issue? Same with the Albert and Hosen point:

Albert=Hosen>Koji (broken stabbed non dominant hand)>Hosen (dominant hand)>Albert

We also know Manabu is above everyone else during year 1, and rivalled only by Miyabi. Hosen is the only student stated to be too much for Manabu in Y2. So we end with a very silly scaling chain:

Koji (his injured hand, non-dominant, was able to overpower Hosen and had him terrified)>Hosen (Needed to be ambushed by Ryuen's gang to lose, including Albert, and stated to be above Manabu)>Manabu (could "oneshot" Koji. Also above everyone during Year 1)=Miyabi (Repeatedly stated to be Manabu's equal is every way)>Albert ("stronger" than Koji)>Koji=Ryuen (his blow was "heavy")>Miyabi (got oneshotted by Koji)=Manabu (equal to Miyabi. Above everyone in year 1, including Ryuen)>Ryuen

A lot of Ayanokoji's statements lead to a crap ton of inconsistencies in the scaling.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This is correct. I had mentioned that in more detail in earlier posts as well, but I probably should have mentioned it again in detail in my above post.


I think that since OP's arguments rely on the Fan TLs to support his revised scaling chain and his argument that Ayanokouji isn't at the top of the verse in physical stats this has undermined that claim. Are you alright with rejecting the changes proposed for this CRT since it looks like the changes that OP has proposed have all been sufficiently disproved. Or do you think there’s still something that still needs addressing?

I alone can't close the thread. Needs more staff input.

But I'd say yeah, for me at least, it's been sufficiently proven that Ayanokoji can be unreliable so statements he makes regarding scaling needs a more attentive reading, and that fan translations used by OP change the context of scenes too much and they would need to bring in the RAWs and get them verified for the current arguments to still hold.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This is correct. I had mentioned that in more detail in earlier posts as well, but I probably should have mentioned it again in detail in my above post.

A lot of Ayanokoji's statements lead to a crap ton of inconsistencies in the scaling.

Yeah, then my bad, I kinda only read the OP and skipped the other pages lol

 

[Doggo]

Yeah, then my bad, I kinda only read the OP and skipped the other pages lol

No need lol. If I were in your place, I probably wouldn't read 5 pages of yapping lol

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I alone can't close the thread. Needs more staff input.

But I'd say yeah, for me at least, it's been sufficiently proven that Ayanokoji can be unreliable so statements he makes regarding scaling needs a more attentive reading, and that fan translations used by OP change the context of scenes too much and they would need to bring in the RAWs and get them verified for the current arguments to still hold.

I'm glad to see you agree. If possible do you know other staff who could come to vote on this?

Additionally, while I think the issue of Ayanokouji's narration being unreliable is something to note, it also seemed to get taken a bit out of context in earlier messages in this thread. It was brought up that we may not be able to trust Ayanokouji's descriptions of events due to this, however this isn't the case. His unreliable narration has to do with his own thoughts/feelings and a majority of this is in the early volumes of Year 1. During this period of the novels Ayanokouji had monologues like this which in comparison to the anime or later volumes just seems wildly out of character. However, we later learn this is due to him intimating what he believes a "regular HS student" should be and from the perspective of the reader this is supposed to appear as a "normal LN protagonist troupe" to hide the truth in a similar vein. There are instances where we also see his true personality slip through in his monologues, even if it's only clear in hindsight. All this is subverted in Y1V3 when Ayanokouji reveals his true personality and inner thoughts to the reader in his monologue about people being nothing but tools.

I don't want to dive too deep into his unreliable narration here since this isn't the place but I just wanted to briefly address this idea that we can't trust anything he says since that isn't the case.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Kiyo pre Y1V3 is just an actual troll lol

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Kiyo pre Y1V3 is just an actual troll lol

I mean...you aren't wrong.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

Not sure if this is worth mentioning but when Hosen stabbed Kiyo with the knife, it was stated that Hosen had actually tried to pull himself off of Kiyo's grip and couldn't, mind you he was huffing so he tried pretty damn hard to do this yet ultimately couldn't shake Kiyo's grip who was injured and wasn't visibly exerting a high amount of effort. So with that in mind, it would make the Albert thing even weirder when you consider that

Im not sure how I'm still being confused here when in my original post I stated his lifting strength was always above everybody including Albert. Even now it's in my OP.

I'm glad to see you agree. If possible do you know other staff who could come to vote on this?

Additionally, while I think the issue of Ayanokouji's narration being unreliable is something to note, it also seemed to get taken a bit out of context in earlier messages in this thread. It was brought up that we may not be able to trust Ayanokouji's descriptions of events due to this, however this isn't the case. His unreliable narration has to do with his own thoughts/feelings and a majority of this is in the early volumes of Year 1. During this period of the novels Ayanokouji had monologues like this which in comparison to the anime or later volumes just seems wildly out of character. However, we later learn this is due to him intimating what he believes a "regular HS student" should be and from the perspective of the reader this is supposed to appear as a "normal LN protagonist troupe" to hide the truth in a similar vein. There are instances where we also see his true personality slip through in his monologues, even if it's only clear in hindsight. All this is subverted in Y1V3 when Ayanokouji reveals his true personality and inner thoughts to the reader in his monologue about people being nothing but tools.

I don't want to dive too deep into his unreliable narration here since this isn't the place but I just wanted to briefly address this idea that we can't trust anything he says since that isn't the case.

I'm being honest none of this is true nor deals with his actual combat ability or actually debunks my scaling chain. Ayanokouji being deceptive with his personality to students does not equate to him hiding his full strength for 2 entire years when he mentions it routinely. I didn't only use year 1 feats. I used year 2 feats as well. The tuskishiro stuff is not year 1. Neither is the Nanase, amasawa or Housen stuff.

I haven't read a single thing that proves his superiority physically besides his lifting strength, which I stated from the beginning. Every thing else is relative to the other characters. Ayanokouji doesn't have any striking one shot feats against high tiers, and be blitzes characters who don't have speed feats themselves against other fast characters to actually gauge his speed.

I alone can't close the thread. Needs more staff input.

But I'd say yeah, for me at least, it's been sufficiently proven that Ayanokoji can be unreliable so statements he makes regarding scaling needs a more attentive reading, and that fan translations used by OP change the context of scenes too much and they would need to bring in the RAWs and get them verified for the current arguments to still hold.

He is unreliable with his personality. Not physical abilities. I did not only use fan translations or year 1 feats either I also used the physical book this is why I keep urging people to look at the OP and not just the comments to pick a person to side with because half the stuff they quoted me on was false and even now created their own false narrative again and still haven't proved superiority, just relatively. I simply didn't reply to create more slop for the thread by replying to all of it.

 

[Buzzflightyear]

This statement was the opening and main premise of my entire thread and not once was it debunked yet and that's why there is still disconnect. If the counter argument is "deception" I can debunk that by using one character, Tuskishiro.

Here is the statement: Ayanokouji and Tsukishiro agree that there are Non white room people as talented as white room members. Tsukishiro even says there is talent the white room cant even produce

This is not a statement about personality. This is a clear reference to physical and mental talent, and that some students are TOO talented to be manufactured in a learning facility like the White Room.

Examples of this would be:

• Sakayanaki's intellect (his mental rival who says she will prove he is a fake genius)
• Sudo's athletic ability(Has the same athleticism as a white room student but lacks the intellect or fighting talent)
• Albert's durable body (Has a body no Japanese person can have due to genetics. They double down again and using Sudo and Katsuragi who are both huge and muscular and cant compare to Albert physique and genetics, and states that foreigners are just made different than Japanese men. Also compares them by using pro baseball players builds.)
• Manabu Horikita academic , fighting + running (Basically a white room student without ever being in the facility)
• Koenji's prodigious talent (Basically a white room student without being in the facility)
• Nagumo being the only student with all As (Manabu 's "equal" excluding his fighting ability, they even reference his academics as "individual strength", he has a A for his swimming)

All of these characters, like in the statement have A+ in these categories, besides Manabu and Nagumo who have All As without the manufacturing that Ayanokouji has and they are admitting there are people around the world who got to (certain areas) where they are without the White Room. Ayanokouji is not being deceptive here, and this isn't from year 1. This is right before their fight on the island test in year 2. Tuskishiro knows every single detail about the REAL him, also showed other students who were tasked with the 20M points expulsion mission all his White Room info that not even homeroom teachers have access to and was in the White room before Koji was alive so what is there to deceive? He isn't and can't deceive Tuskishiro or anyone who was shown his real profile. They are simply discussing a fact that Koji learned from his experience as a "regular student". Overall he outclasses them all, like Ryuuen told Albert when Albert said Housen could beat Ayanokouji because they have equal AP, but there are still students who can compare to him in SPECIFIC areas like the scan states. Not sure how all that got minimized to "Koenji personality". There was also when Ayanokouji talks to Sudo about his real strength and how his stamina is leaving, where he says he can't be deceptive because Sudo saw his real strength. Which means he wasn't holding back against Housen bringing back home my lifting strength point like the other guy tried to throw out that I already mentioned from the start.

Multiple things I proved in this thread

1.) The narrative that Ayanokouji has never been serious is false, even if you say he is using 85% if his full capabilities.
2.) Ayanokouji is by far the most skilled and experienced but is not the most durable or hits the hardest.
3.) Alberts genetics gives him the highest durability even if he isn't the strongest fighter.
4.) White Room student do NOT = superior stats in every category.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Im not sure how I'm still being confused here when in my original post I stated his lifting strength was always above everybody including Albert. Even now it's in my OP.

Maybe I misunderstood but what you said was that "Ayanokouji is not physically superior to every single character", but so far all we've seen in the series is the opposite of this claim.

Every thing else is relative to the other characters. Ayanokouji doesn't have any striking one shot feats against high tiers,

I think there's a big misconception here, the way this reads is that you're postulating that no one shots = Kiyo is not the strongest in the verse but this isn't an action shonen series, naturally in a verse of nothing but 9B's there is not going to be major enough gaps in AP that warrant one shots. So, I think it's best if you forego that angle of observing things since barring pressure point attacks it just isn't as common due to the structure of the series narrative. He isn't required to be able to one shot them to be the strongest in the verse.

and be blitzes characters who don't have speed feats themselves against other fast characters to actually gauge his speed.

That also applies to the blitzing here, but even then I'm a little confused because this is just...I mean cmon man, it's just plain wrong. We absolutely do have evidence of him being significantly faster than the fastest of characters, one of the most blatant examples of this is his ability to save Kushida from having her arm broken by Ichika even though Ichika literally already had her hand closed around Kushida's arm and only needed to apply pressure to break it. Despite this, Kiyo was able to close the distance between them which was roughly 5 meters and in this short time he managed to get Kushida's arm off of Ichika's grip and restrain Ichika all before she ever had the chance to even react. This is textbook perception blitzing, it even states that her defensive instincts (which we know are literally faster than the character's own speed for WR students) kicked in and yet even then it wasn't enough and she got laid out.

Saying that he blitzes characters who don't have speed feats themselves is also a tad silly I feel? We know WR students in general are stated to already be beyond most humans, Ichika and Yagami are some of the best students from the 5th generation, naturally this means they would upscale from the other students, or at the very least directly scale to the feats they have performed. There's absolutely nothing in the series that goes against them being amongst the highest echelon in the verse (because they are) so I do not really see how you can make that claim.

Even more so when Ichika and Yagami are just blatantly stated to literally be beyond every other student just by the aura they exude when they get serious, let alone when they actually start using their abilities, inb4 you say that Horikita just said that it was beyond "ordinary students" it's clear she was taking into account everyone at the school when she not only says in the next paragraph that "if we let him go right now, there was no guarantee that anyone would be able to quell his rampage" but most importantly when she has seen first hand both Hosen's strength and speed in Y2V1, and prior in Y2V4 had literally compared a heavily injured, on the verge of unconsciousness Ichika to Hosen in terms of general strength.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This statement was the opening and main premise of my entire thread and not once was it debunked yet and that's why there is still disconnect. If the counter argument is "deception" I can debunk that by using one character, Tuskishiro.

Here is the statement: Ayanokouji and Tsukishiro agree that there are Non white room people as talented as white room members. Tsukishiro even says there is talent the white room cant even produce

Except they never once compare the characters in ANHS to Kiyo, so this doesn't really prove your point. Just them generally saying "white room" does not mean they are referring to Kiyo, that's without mentioning that talent and ability are also separate things, to have talent doesn't necessarily equate to having the ability to utilize that talent to its upmost. It's why coaches, teachers, professors, etc are a thing.

Examples of this would be:

• Sakayanaki's intellect (his mental rival who says she will prove he is a fake genius)
• Sudo's athletic ability(Has the same athleticism as a white room student but lacks the intellect or fighting talent)
• Albert's durable body (Has a body no Japanese person can have due to genetics. They double down again and using Sudo and Katsuragi who are both huge and muscular and cant compare to Albert physique and genetics, and states that foreigners are just made different than Japanese men. Also compares them by using pro baseball players builds.)
• Manabu Horikita academic , fighting + running (Basically a white room student without ever being in the facility)
• Koenji's prodigious talent (Basically a white room student without being in the facility)
• Nagumo being the only student with all As (Manabu 's "equal" excluding his fighting ability, they even reference his academics as "individual strength", he has a A for his swimming)

Ok...for starters you're going off topic, not a single one of these are actually related to the thread but even then some of these are just head cannon.

• Kiyo never once admits inferiority to Sakayanagi in the scan, you're also using a quote she made before she lost to, and ultimately admitted inferiority to Kiyo to try and argue what exactly?
• Sudo's athletic abilities are irrelevant to your OP of claiming Kiyo is not the most physically dominant character in the verse, as athletic ability just refers to how good he is at sports, specifically basketball so idk what the point of this is
• Albert's durable body and build is an objective assertion of his physical appearance, that is purely genetic and again doesn't relate to the OP
• The Manabu stuff is head cannon, he's never once stated to "basically be a white room student", likewise Kiyo was going to speed up and beat him in the race if the student hadn't fell in front of him so he wasn't actually going all out
• Koenji is the same, this is again...head cannon. I'm not saying these two aren't impressive characters but there's no scans you have sent that supports this claim you're making, this is also once again unrelated to the thread as talent and physical ability are not the same thing
• Nagumo being the only student with all As is completely pointless here, when we know Kiyo could have a perfect score of 100 in every subject and category and only chooses not to in order to hide his abilities

Multiple things I proved in this thread

1.) The narrative that Ayanokouji has never been serious is false, even if you say he is using 85% if his full capabilities.
2.) Ayanokouji is by far the most skilled and experienced but is not the most durable or hits the hardest.
3.) Alberts genetics gives him the highest durability even if he isn't the strongest fighter.
4.) White Room student do NOT = superior stats in every category.

I'm ngl man...you didn't cook

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I think we are slightly confusing him being the strongest in terms of his physical abilities with him being the best at absolutely everything and some undefeated god of the verse

 

[Doggo]

There was also when Ayanokouji talks to Sudo about his real strength and how his stamina is leaving, where he says he can't be deceptive because Sudo saw his real strength. Which means he wasn't holding back against Housen bringing back home my lifting strength point like the other guy tried to throw out that I already mentioned from the sta

Nothing about that link says anything about stamina; it's just Ayanokoji admitting he did not really know the standard grip strength of a high schooler, and that was how Sudo saw through him, with Ayanokoji admitting he rigged his own results to seem weaker than he actually is....

Furthermore, what does Ayanokoji not holding back have anything to do with the fact that Hosen was powerless against his injured hand? You are indirectly admitting that a full powered Koji is above Hosen at this point

 

[Doggo]

Nagumo being the only student with all As (Manabu 's "equal" excluding his fighting ability, they even reference his academics as "individual strength", he has a A for his swimming)

Nagumo is A for being a great athlete overall. We see Sudo being impressed by his volleyball skills in Y1, and he had intended to challenge Manabu to a race until Koji took that spot. Even if he is a less skilled fighter, Manabu and Nagumo are very likely to be equals in raw physical ability. The fact Koji can one shot him disproves the idea of Manabu can one shot Ayanokoji

 

[Buzzflightyear]

I think there's a big misconception here, the way this reads is that you're postulating that no one shots = Kiyo is not the strongest in the verse but this isn't an action shonen series, naturally in a verse of nothing but 9B's there is not going to be major enough gaps in AP that warrant one shots. So, I think it's best if you forego that angle of observing things since barring pressure point attacks it just isn't as common due to the structure of the series narrative. He isn't required to be able to one shot them to be the strongest in the verse.

I never once said he wasn't the strongest. I'm literally saying the strongest is not decided by PHYSICALITY but decided by OVERALL ability not physical lifting, physical punching etc.

That also applies to the blitzing here, but even then I'm a little confused because this is just...I mean cmon man, it's just plain wrong. We absolutely do have evidence of him being significantly faster than the fastest of characters,

This is literally my point how are we measuring "fastest characters" when these characters literally have no feats against other fast characters to claim this. Nanase has never faced a fast character to claim this. The literal only comparison we have is the race and for 99% of it they were EQUALS and Koji said he could go faster, it never said Manabu also can't go faster. Just that Koji can. Thats not full context. All we have is they are equal runners with a possibility of Koji being faster, not knowing if Manabu can duplicate it

one of the most blatant examples of this is his ability to save Kushida from having her arm broken by Ichika even though Ichika literally already had her hand closed around Kushida's arm and only needed to apply pressure to break it.

Despite this, Kiyo was able to close the distance between them which was roughly 5 meters and in this short time he managed to get Kushida's arm off of Ichika's grip and restrain Ichika all before she ever had the chance to even react. This is textbook perception blitzing, it even states that her defensive instincts (which we know are literally faster than the character's own speed for WR students) kicked in and yet even then it wasn't enough and she got laid out.

I hope you understand this is EXACTLY what Nanase also did to Ayanokouji when he said he had to use "emergency evasive action" while he already had his eyes on her. The difference is Amasawa wasnt facing Ayanokouji like Nanase was already facing him. If her defensive instincts kicked in that means she could perceive him moving just couldn't react and stop it in time. That's not perception blitz. A perception blitz is what Amasawa did to Kushida who got hit mid sentence and didn't register it until she hit the ground. Kushida also doesn't have speed feats to claim that as some OP speed feat. If she did this to Housen or Manabu it would be more justificatio. Amasawa clearly registered Koji and went defensive but her movement was too slow.

Saying that he blitzes characters who don't have speed feats themselves is also a tad silly I feel?

It isn't. You just said he is blitzing fast characters, but these "fast" characters have no actual feats of their own to say their fast

We know WR students in general are stated to already be beyond most humans, Ichika and Yagami are some of the best students from the 5th generation, naturally this means they would upscale from the other students, or at the very least directly scale to the feats they have performed.

In different areas while being inferior in others. Example Ayanokouji saying Amasawa could defeat Housen, Ryuuen and Sudo in a fight, but if you compare their PHYSICAL STRENGTH i.e. lifting strength, then they are superior to her. Which is why we never seen her overpower a male character, she simply can beat them in a fight.

There's absolutely nothing in the series that goes against them being amongst the highest echelon in the verse (because they are) so I do not really see how you can make that claim.

Nobody said they aren't. Everything you arguing for is mentioned in the experience portion of my chain. Doesn't mean they are superior in every single stat, which is what my reply just said

Even more so when Ichika and Yagami are just blatantly stated to literally be beyond every other student just by the aura they exude when they get serious,

Aura doesn't equate to superior stats across the board. They are beyond because they are better trained, more discipline, and honed.

Nagumo is A for being a great athlete overall. We see Sudo being impressed by his volleyball skills in Y1, and he had intended to challenge Manabu to a race until Koji took that spot. Even if he is a less skilled fighter, Manabu and Nagumo are very likely to be equals in raw physical ability.

Nothing you said equates to them being equal fighters. Sudo is better at basketball than Ayanokouji by his own words, but no one would argue that he would beat Ayanokouji in a fight.

You guys are trying to couple athleticism with fighting ability and that's not how it works.

The fact Koji can one shot him disproves the idea of Manabu can one shot Ayanokoji

Once again you are trying to use them being compared as student council presidents to equate them as fighters and that is not how fighting works. Manabu is better trained in fighting. That does not equate to how durable Nagumo is, he could be a glass cannon while Manabu is a tank. Assuming they are equals across the board down to their Durability is kinda lazy and clearly for narrative lol

 

[Buzzflightyear]

Nothing about that link says anything about stamina; it's just Ayanokoji admitting he did not really know the standard grip strength of a high schooler, and that was how Sudo saw through him, with Ayanokoji admitting he rigged his own results to seem weaker than he actually is....

The premise of that scan is to literally show that he used his real strength, something you guys repeatedly state he never does. This thread has switches from "Ayanokouji never tries hard" to "yeah he tires hard but they still are weaker" which was something I never argued.

Furthermore, what does Ayanokoji not holding back have anything to do with the fact that Hosen was powerless against his injured hand? You are indirectly admitting that a full powered Koji is above Hosen at this point

Keep in mind I Literally said he was from the beginning.... Which for the 20th time is still in my OP and you guys keep arguing with me against something you later admit yourselves

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I have a very limited knowledge about this verse as I've only watched up till s2. I vividly remember Ayanokoji struggling to damage Albert with his punches and had to target his weak points to damage him, but there is also a feat where he blitzes a FTE character.

Maybe you could scale their AP at similar levels but speed with a big difference?

I may be wrong though, feel free to correct me.